All B/R update speculation.

[Lemnear]

On the second point: 4x hypothetical Torpor Orb land + 4x Dreadnought is not a good deck.

If the land produces mana and has no EtB restriction i heavily disagree. Its a very slick 2 card combo and the land itself is a 0cc hate itself for Snappys & Co. I cant name any two card, one mana combo with more impact.

[Fox]

If the land produces mana and has no EtB restriction i heavily disagree. Its a very slick 2 card combo and the land itself is a 0cc hate itself for Snappys & Co. I cant name any two card, one mana combo with more impact.

Tomb Chalice.

You missed the whole part in my last post about how it's powerful does not equal it wins; cause it's pretty antagonistic to everything the other ~44 cards in the deck are doing. We're also talking about a pointless hypothetical which we've already stated could be worded to allay the fears of a turn 1 Dreadnought unable to Daze & no evasion, in a combo that would lose to Wasteland, from taking over the format.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

How is a 1 mana 12/12 trample shittier than a 3 mana 15/15 from a tempo and deckbuilding aspect? Dreadnought and the land in question would be a straight boon to the aggro-control supertype making it even more pointless to run clunky decks like SnT in order to "go large" in the format.

A 12/12 T1 on the play is absurd to handle in Legacy especially with the presence of 0cc counters/discard. Oh and of course it goes well with the cantrip shell and has no tempo-/carddisadvabtage if answered either.

It's shittier because the dreadnought might win you the game where as the emrakul almost garuntees it. Slap anhilator and protection onto a dreadnought and we'll talk. You also get to pair emrakul with grisdlebrand. Dreadnought gets... Eater of Days?

[Lemnear]

Tomb Chalice.

You missed the whole part in my last post about how it's powerful does not equal it wins

Come back once Chalice has a body equaling a 2 turn clock.

Chalice equals a win only against 1cc.dec while Dreadnought gives a fuck about the opponents decks average cmc

[Fox]

Come back once Chalice has a body equaling a 2 turn clock.

Chalice equals a win only against 1cc.dec while Dreadnought gives a fuck about the opponents decks average cmc

There is a large disconnect between "that is a thing" and whether or not it's actually viable. 4x Torpor land and 4x Dreadnought isn't a successful deck idea. You can do it, it's powerful, it's also high variance (not winning) b/c it's not a gameplan. It's a bad land that endangers the whole idea of Delver, Standstill, Daze, Stifle, and Wasteland. Are we getting that this isn't actually a thing now? I mean we can go throught the list of every Goblin there is or that they could print, and no matter what Lackey is still okay - it can be powerful, and still be fine. Emmy could be creature type Goblin, and it would be stupid, but it'd be fine.

Just like Chalice, the more successful a symmetrical effect is, the more it has to deal with itself - so if this hypothetical Torpor land/Dreadnought is the new tier 1 (which is ridiculous), they would start losing games b/c they played Torpor land into another Dreadnought opponent. I'm not sure why we're still going on about "that's too good" when again, we could just reword the hypothetical. The whole point here is maybe it's time we got some ETB value hate to force them to diversify or suffer the consequences. (PS Strix still has deathtouch)

[Lemnear]

I certainly dont disagree with more EtB hate being required which does not suck like Torpor Orb by itself.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Come back once Chalice has a body equaling a 2 turn clock.

Chalice equals a win only against 1cc.dec while Dreadnought gives a fuck about the opponents decks average cmc

Please show me the legacy deck that has no answer to a singular creature over the course of three turns?

[Michael Keller]

Please show me the legacy deck that has no answer to a singular creature over the course of three turns?

It's the age old "because it can be answered by anything" reply. That doesn't matter.

A land like that would free up loads of design space, it would become similar to Stage-Depths, but in fact, better. You don't need to wait until turn three (like you would with Urborg), you wouldn't be susceptible to Wasteland and you don't need a second spell of any kind to ensure a card like Phyrexian Dreadnought resolves as a normal creature would. There's practically no stack interaction, and it's splashable into multiple archetypes, probably opening up new ones in the process.

Assassin's Trophy would be invalidated, and decks would shift their hate to needing Swords, Decay, etc. Fuck, I would play four Welding Jar and tell people to kiss my ass. (Not really, but you get the point.)

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

It's the age old "because it can be answered by anything" reply. That doesn't matter.

A land like that would free up loads of design space, it would become similar to Stage-Depths, but in fact, better. You don't need to wait until turn three (like you would with Urborg), you wouldn't be susceptible to Wasteland and you don't need a second spell of any kind to ensure a card like Phyrexian Dreadnought resolves as a normal creature would. There's practically no stack interaction, and it's splashable into multiple archetypes, probably opening up new ones in the process.

Assassin's Trophy would be invalidated, and decks would shift their hate to needing Swords, Decay, etc. Fuck, I would play four Welding Jar and tell people to kiss my ass. (Not really, but you get the point.)

Do you...do you know how any of these cards work?
Like honest question, and I won't be mad if you, do you know how etb triggers work and when they would go onto the stack? Because just about none of what you said was true.

[Ronald Deuce]

Can we just admit that paying two mana to turn literally a quarter of the cards in a given game of Magic (on both sides of the table, obv.) into copies of Jack of Clubs is worse for the game than either seeing three cards for one mana or getting a 12/12 for the same? That'd be really great.

[Michael Keller]

Do you...do you know how any of these cards work?
Like honest question, and I won't be mad if you, do you know how etb triggers work and when they would go onto the stack? Because just about none of what you said was true.

I'm totally confused about what you're insinuating, because this isn't hard.

If you have a land that has a static Torpor Orb ability, playing a Dreadnought costs a single colorless mana off of said land, making the investment virtually nothing. To answer a 12/12 on turn one say, on the draw, you had better have a Swords or turn-two removal spell. The only ubiquitous two one-mana spells that exist to handle that at one mana in the format are Swords and Push. The point is, regardless if those cards exist, playing a 12/12 for one mana that involves no other spell to cheat it in (like an actual Torpor Orb, Stifle, etc.) is ridiculously overpowered - especially in a format where Crop Rotation exists.

I think the key here understanding what the actual text would be of such a card, and where you feel I'm confused about triggered abilities - because I'm not. The combo would put too many other decks on the backfoot too fast, and absolutely force those decks to answer it or die. I mean, you could even run Berserk or Temur Battle Rage and consistently win on turn two against most fair decks. It would be terrifying. To put it into context - look at the design space setup and life investment Dimir Shadow has to make just to - maybe - get a 7/7 or 8/8 into play by turn three. This would put a 12/12 (trampler, mind you) into play turn one at virtually no cost.

(The Stage-Depths correlation was indicating a combo that exists largely on turn three (max, unless you have Urborg+Depths+Hexmage), and can be nullified by Wasteland. Playing this other discussed imaginary land and casting a Dreadnought for a colorless mana renders Wasteland virtually useless, because the last thing your opponent would care about under those circumstances is destroying that land while staring down a 12/12 - and they can't respond to you tapping a land for mana.)

[Fox]

He's saying that if Wasteland is in play, and they cast Dread with Torpor land, you Waste on the stack and Dread dies

[Dice_Box]

I'm all for decks that lose to Wasteland and Maze, but this seems like a bad idea. Even if I would like the proposed land myself.

[Lemnear]

He's saying that if Wasteland is in play, and they cast Dread with Torpor land, you Waste on the stack and Dread dies

So what? Do you tell me the deck cant run Wastes or stifles to combat opposing Wasteland? Ever Dark Depths deck has the same issue, but this iteration can drop its fatty T1 off 1 land and 1 mana unlike Dark Depths

[Fox]

So what? Do you tell me the deck cant run Wastes or stifles to combat opposing Wasteland? Ever Dark Depths deck has the same issue, but this iteration can drop its fatty T1 off 1 land and 1 mana unlike Dark Depths

Actually yes, there is no 4x Torpor land good blue deck. Remember that 8x Fetch, 6x mana producers, 4x Wasteland, and 4x Torpor land isn't good 'cause that equals 22 lands and you can't play Standstill (and really shouldn't play Delver) - the increase in dead draws goes up and games are going to go longer. So Daze is probably out, and now we start questioning blue count and the viability of Stifle and FoW. You could stay at 18 lands and run zero Wasteland, which then means Stifle and Daze are fairly worthless since you can't deny mana effectively. The mana doesn't work and b/c of that it would never be a real deck running 4x Torpor lands. At best you'd be seeing maybe one of these hypothetical lands in a maindeck and another in the board.

What you might see is a UG version with a soft 4x Torpor lands by using 2-3x Crop Rotations as virtual copies, but...it's UG, so I'm kinda fine with a deck that's those colors and might play Greenbelt Rampager, Scythe Tiger, and Tempting Wurm (except Goyf is what you'd play here) if they wanted to maximize the build around negating ETB. Also Let's be honest, who doesn't want to see Rogue Elephant and Greenbelt attacking into Strix and Crop Rot into Elephant Graveyard?

If we're being realistic about a deck running 4x Torpor land I think we all know it starts with these 15 not-blue lands: 4x Torpor land, 4x Thespian's Stage, 4x Dark Depths, 3x Urborg. The creatures would be 4x Dreadnought, 4x Hunted Horror, and 4x Hexmage. I'm not sure why I'd care about a high variance mono-black 2-card monty, nor the same deck playing even more lands to get access to a second color (green) as either deck fills out the remaining slots with discard.

So again the turn 1 Dreadnought is still a 'thing' you can do, but let's take that step back and remember that Wasteland and the hypothetical Torpor land don't cast colored spells, nor can they alt-cast a Daze. This is a rather pervasive misconception people get from the term "StifleNought" - a simple A+B combo is not really what the deck is about, instead it is built to accommodate that aspect. Piloting it with the A+B mentality is a losing strategy.

[Michael Keller]

I think we would need to know what the exact text of such a card would be. Are we talking about a static effect that hits all creatures, or something similar to a Cavern effect where it only counts for the creature you're playing? If it's static and affects everything, that would be crushing for decks like Elves, Goblins and to a smaller extent DnT. It would throttle Snapcaster Mage and open up decks for cool ideas.

But it would still be nuts.

[Fox]

I think we would need to know what the exact text of such a card would be. Are we talking about a static effect that hits all creatures, or something similar to a Cavern effect where it only counts for the creature you're playing? If it's static and affects everything, that would be crushing for decks like Elves, Goblins and to a smaller extent DnT. It would throttle Snapcaster Mage and open up decks for cool ideas.

But it would still be nuts.

It would definitely punish people for trying to play value rather than choosing to interact with Wasteland. Elves still gets cast triggers to untap Sentinel and draw off Glimpse; they just lose the obnoxious Symbiote/Visionary spam and would have to settle for a 5/5 haste rather than turning all their guys into Dreadnoughts for a turn. Goblins and DnT play Vial, which means Wasteland, so they'd be fine - I also don't see how a land that kind of hates on the nonsense Vial enables is that unhealthy. As stated before, if it were that much of a concern you could have it say "works vs owner at all times, only works vs opponent when untapped" to give DnT/Goblins 4 more answers (Port).

The SCM decks can choose to still not play Wasteland and they'd still have Mentor/Entreat and flying removal spells (Strix), so I wouldn't feel too bad for them.

[Lemnear]

Actually yes, there is no 4x Torpor land good blue deck.

Yeah, because we talk the viability of a HYPOTHETICAL card. What's next? Pointing me to the lack of GPs the deck has won so far? Ffs, man.

Remember that 8x Fetch, 6x mana producers, 4x Wasteland, and 4x Torpor land isn't good 'cause that equals 22 lands and you can't play Standstill (and really shouldn't play Delver)

Why the actual fuck is STANDSTILL now a criteria or topic?

[Fox]

Yeah, because we talk the viability of a HYPOTHETICAL card. What's next? Pointing me to the lack of GPs the deck has won so far? Ffs, man.
Why the actual fuck is STANDSTILL now a criteria or topic?

So you don't play Dreadnought, you don't have years of experience with it, and you don't really get that a Torpor Orb land means very little to overall build. Thus we arrive at the point where a non-Dreadnought user says: people would be spamming both playsets of the Torpor land and 12/12s everywhere to success.

That's okay, most people don't actually know what constitutes a Dreadnought deck. The knee-jerk reaction of 'that's too good, it would be a problem everywhere' explains why you think such a deck can jam in 4 more colorless lands and keep doing the exact same thing like Wastelanding and Stifling and Dazing and FoWing without realizing the implications of those are 4 more colorless lands. If you know anything about Dreadnought other than just "StifleNought" means A+B, you'd know that you are talking about Standstill, Factory, Delver, and the whole system of mana denial as well.

So when you say:

Do you tell me the deck cant run Wastes or stifles to combat opposing Wasteland?

^Yes, I'm telling you exactly that. Also, the most cheese-based strat would probably be mono-black 2-card monty - which can't cast Stifle, and already has 8 lands off the bat that tap for colorless, so you kinda don't really want to tag on 4 more colorless (Wastelands on top of Torpor land/Stage in a deck without any manipulation). The premise that a land that lets you turn 1 a Dreadnought is too dangerous is kinda ridiculous.

The point of this whole tangent is that they banned the best non-ETB creature in legacy (DRS) and they have failed to replace his anti-SCM (challenging recursion) and anti-Strix (drain~not trading down a card vs deathtouch), and predictably such creatures are overrunning the format - and it's about time everyone gets a tool to hate em out.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

It's the age old "because it can be answered by anything" reply. That doesn't matter.

A land like that would free up loads of design space, it would become similar to Stage-Depths, but in fact, better. You don't need to wait until turn three (like you would with Urborg), you wouldn't be susceptible to Wasteland and you don't need a second spell of any kind to ensure a card like Phyrexian Dreadnought resolves as a normal creature would. There's practically no stack interaction, and it's splashable into multiple archetypes, probably opening up new ones in the process.

Assassin's Trophy would be invalidated, and decks would shift their hate to needing Swords, Decay, etc. Fuck, I would play four Welding Jar and tell people to kiss my ass. (Not really, but you get the point.)

Well, ok, since you insist:
It's not that it could be answered it's that it could be answered by everything. Your can discard, kill, tap, do literally anything to a dreadnought. It has no evasion. There is no deck that can't handle such a creature.
So let's look at all these cards you named and why, actually, they do hit dreadnought:
Stage depths is better than torpor/naught because 20/20 is leathal in 1 swing, is indestructible, is instant speed, and flies. They're both combos that, under ideal circumstances, can't be lethal before turn 3. T1 cast, T2 swing, t3 swing for dreadnought, t1 urborg, t2 depths hexmage, swing t3 for marit lege. They're also both lands so you can crop rot for both halves of the combo, and get to play your etb triggers as normal.
You would be susceptible to wasteland because dreadnought is still a spell and could be responded to. If the land is destroyed before then dreadnought arrives hungry as ever.
Assassin's trophy can still kill a dreadnought, which can't kill you in one turn. Assassin's trophy can also kill a fancy land. Decks are already running swords, push, and decay all of which kill a dreadnought. You want to add welding jar and go all in on this combo? Well it does nothing against swords, path, edict, grudgr or console's judgement. All cards currently played.
Like I said upthread: I've played many a turn one dreadnought. I've played it with force, I've played it with hymn, heck, last time I played it with ugin. If your plan is "T1 dreadnought, answer or die" you will lose. I know because I have. For years.