All B/R update speculation.

[Lava Snacks]

Are the best card selection cards in Modern now Serum Visions, Opt, and Ancient Stirrings?

I wonder what I'll draw next

[Lord Seth]

Modern derives most of its value from GY synergy, and it’s an incredibly linear format. When you have no risk of meaningful interaction (FoW/Wasteland/Daze), Looting becomes an easy and safe pseudo-ramp/mana enabler. Honestly with this banned, they could have probably left Hogaak alone.

Absolutely no way. Hogaak was perfectly capable of crazy powerful starts without Faithless Looting. Yeah, the loss of Faithless Looting hurts the deck, but banning just Faithless Looting also means you're hurting other decks that could fight against Hogaak.

The real question is whether the Faithless Looting ban was necessary. It's definitely a powerful card but I do question if it was overpowered outside of Hogaak decks. Maybe they were worried about Phoenix getting too good with Hogaak gone.

I'm amazed that Ancient Stirrings didn't get hit. That card has never been in anything resembling a "fair" deck, its the single best cantrip in Modern, bar none now. That plus the London Mulligan and new Karn means Tron almost always "wins" on turn 3. Maybe Force of Negation is enough to stop it now that everyone doesn't have to spend so many slots on the graveyard, but I kinda doubt it.

Even if Ancient Stirrings was too good--and I will contend it is not--it would make no sense to ban it now when none of the decks it's seeing play in are actually all that great right now. Maybe that'll shift around with Hogaak getting banned but I doubt it. Tron has the same weaknesses it's always had, while Hardened Scales and Amulet Titan aren't even Tier 1. Even if there is reason to ban Ancient Stirrings, there's no reason right now.

SFM is fine, it'll be nice to see creature decks using equipment again. Wish they'd ban Griselbrand and Emrakul, it would be nice to see some fatties that don't immediately end the game see play. Especially Brand, but that'll probably never happen.

Are we talking Modern or Legacy here? Griselbrand and Emrakul are practically nonentities in Modern right now, so I'd think you were referring to Legacy, but you didn't indicate a shift in formats.

Yeah, it was. At the GP this weekend it was 13% of day 1 decks (the next closest being 8% mono-red, the deck most likely to beat it), which progressed into 22% of the day 2 decks, and then 5/8 of the top 8 and 3/4 of the top 4 decks. The deck was far and away the most broken deck Modern has ever seen, by at least any statistical metric you want to use.

Hogaak wasn't as bad as Eldrazi was.

[Ronald Deuce]

I've got a number of questions regarding the new bans and restrictions. None of them are strictly Legacy-related, but I'd like to hear what people think.
—Is this connected to the London Mulligan? How strongly? (For the record, my answers: YES, and VERY.)
—Who actually wanted this? I get a ban/restriction or two in a format or two, but this is six cards at once across two formats—and some of those cards (Troll, Misstep, Looting) have been played for some time. I guess two unbans and an unrestriction (wc?) should sweeten the deal, but uh—I just don't get it.
—With the wording of the Modern announcement, is it fair to say that the only kind of Magic Wizards likes is "swingin' with dudes," and consequently, that the company will use the banlist to enforce this aggressively regardless of players' opinions? My take is that that's what they've done here, be it for better or worse.
—What the hell's happening to Vintage? Should we even care?

[Fox]

Absolutely no way. Hogaak was perfectly capable of crazy powerful starts without Faithless Looting. Yeah, the loss of Faithless Looting hurts the deck, but banning just Faithless Looting also means you're hurting other decks that could fight against Hogaak.

The real question is whether the Faithless Looting ban was necessary. It's definitely a powerful card but I do question if it was overpowered outside of Hogaak decks. Maybe they were worried about Phoenix getting too good with Hogaak gone.

I would still maintain that the [pseudo] mana-engine of Faithless Looting made it a better ban. Hogaak definitely exploited that engine, but so does Bloodghast, keyword dredge, keyword delve, Phoenix, etc...

A 1cmc 1/1 that mills over the top 3, and can't 'tutor' cards from hand to yard, and can't add consistency is not likely to keep Hogaak at the top of the metagame. Looting is pretty highly non-committal in that it allows you to play normal magic (1-for-1, little need to sequence) with a better mana shortcut than everyone else.

Without Looting, Hogaak would fall off on his own due to a combination of lack of consistency or having his power eclipsed. Looting will always try and make itself a problem, scavenging for any card that it can make 'cheaty' mana with.

[Purple Blood]

I would still maintain that the [pseudo] mana-engine of Faithless Looting made it a better ban. Hogaak definitely exploited that engine, but so does Bloodghast, keyword dredge, keyword delve, Phoenix, etc...

A 1cmc 1/1 that mills over the top 3, and can't 'tutor' cards from hand to yard, and can't add consistency is not likely to keep Hogaak at the top of the metagame. Looting is pretty highly non-committal in that it allows you to play normal magic (1-for-1, little need to sequence) with a better mana shortcut than everyone else.

Without Looting, Hogaak would fall off on his own due to a combination of lack of consistency or having his power eclipsed. Looting will always try and make itself a problem, scavenging for any card that it can make 'cheaty' mana with.

Do the most busted Hogaak openings even involve casting looting? As far as I can tell the nut draw is T1: Supplier; T2: land, recur Bloodghast(s), cast Wayfinder, cast Hogaak, recur Vengevine(s).

Looting had to go. It's been the centerpiece of every degenerate deck in the format for a long while. Without banning Hogaak you would probably just end up with some Phoenix or Dredge deck dominating the meta.

The thing about Modern is there is no FoW or Daze. The closest thing to that free permission that stops degeneracy is Thoughtseize and Inquisition but discard is nearly meaningless when all the best decks benefit from dumping cards in the graveyard.

I think the thought process here, particularly with the simultaneous unbanning of SFM, is let's see what the meta looks like with a fair midrange deck like UW Stoneblade at the top of the format. The approach was pretty heavy handed doing three things at once but I think this could quite easily end up salvaging a format that has been dog shit for years.

[Lord Seth]

I would still maintain that the [pseudo] mana-engine of Faithless Looting made it a better ban. Hogaak definitely exploited that engine, but so does Bloodghast, keyword dredge, keyword delve, Phoenix, etc...

A 1cmc 1/1 that mills over the top 3, and can't 'tutor' cards from hand to yard, and can't add consistency is not likely to keep Hogaak at the top of the metagame. Looting is pretty highly non-committal in that it allows you to play normal magic (1-for-1, little need to sequence) with a better mana shortcut than everyone else.

Without Looting, Hogaak would fall off on his own due to a combination of lack of consistency or having his power eclipsed. Looting will always try and make itself a problem, scavenging for any card that it can make 'cheaty' mana with.

I think you're underestimating how powerful Hogaak is without Faithless Looting; Looting wasn't even responsible for the most absurd starts in the deck. But let's suppose that it's possible Faithless Looting would have been enough.

Wizards of the Coast just banned a card (Bridge from Below) to weaken but not kill the deck, which didn't do the trick. Now you suggest they should again ban a card to weaken but not kill the deck. Well, what if that doesn't work? Then they have to ban another card. Why dance around banning Hogaak like that? This isn't like Workshop or Brainstorm, where there's a good number of players who really like having the card around so trying to ban around the cards at least has merit in pleasing the players--there's no incentive to ban around Hogaak.

Banning Hogaak but not Faithless Looting is defensible, but banning Faithless Looting but not Hogaak is just silly.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Hogaak wasn't as bad as Eldrazi was.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ModernMagic...and_graveyard/
https://www.reddit.com/r/ModernMagic...nd_historical/

It was nearly the exact same level, although allowed to live longer and therefore warp the metagame even harder.

[Dice_Box]

As someone who has spent the last two weeks playing Hogaak Depths, I am willing to state with compleand total certainty that Faithless has played no part in my broken Hogaak plays.

As someone who has played Modern for a few years I can say I am 100% on board with Faithless getting the axe. I have never seen it do anything positive. People will say "Stirrings next" but my answer there is that the cards popularity is waning. A lot of more recent printings have removed the card from decks that use to depend upon it, reducing its penetration to mostly two decks. (Scales and Tron.)

While the card may require (and in the past meet the requirements for) a ban, it currently does not.

[Smuggo]

So Hogaak, the card from the recent set Modern Horizons that contained a bunch of cards specifically designed for Modern has been banned from Modern... Good job Wizards.

Anyway, glad there was no changes to Legacy, format seems in a good place right now.

[Tylert]

So Hogaak, the card from the recent set Modern Horizons that contained a bunch of cards specifically designed for Modern has been banned from Modern... Good job Wizards.

Anyway, glad there was no changes to Legacy, format seems in a good place right now.

I'm not really keen on the fact that one of the budget decks of the format is pushed out of tier 1 status (Talking about Death and taxes) by wrenn and six.

[Smuggo]

I'm not really keen on the fact that one of the budget decks of the format is pushed out of tier 1 status (Talking about Death and taxes) by wrenn and six.

D&T has been up there for a very long time so not especially concerned it has dropped back a bit. And I'm sure there must be some options for them to fight it post board. Devout Decree maybe?

[Barook]

So Hogaak, the card from the recent set Modern Horizons that contained a bunch of cards specifically designed for Modern has been banned from Modern... Good job Wizards.

Anyway, glad there was no changes to Legacy, format seems in a good place right now.

It's good that Wizards is still trying to push the envelope. What isn't good is that they still aren't learning from past mistakes, e.g. that Delve is broken as shit. DTT and Treasure Cruise should have been enough to teach them, yet here we are.

While Narset isn't broken, it still takes the same flawed design idea as Mental Misstep - one-sided card draw hate that is best run in blue decks. Why the effect of draw hate is so rare in general (compared to GY hate for example), and then put into blue AND being one-sided is beyond me.

[Megadeus]

I've got a number of questions regarding the new bans and restrictions. None of them are strictly Legacy-related, but I'd like to hear what people think.
—Is this connected to the London Mulligan? How strongly? (For the record, my answers: YES, and VERY.)
—Who actually wanted this? I get a ban/restriction or two in a format or two, but this is six cards at once across two formats—and some of those cards (Troll, Misstep, Looting) have been played for some time. I guess two unbans and an unrestriction (wc?) should sweeten the deal, but uh—I just don't get it.
—With the wording of the Modern announcement, is it fair to say that the only kind of Magic Wizards likes is "swingin' with dudes," and consequently, that the company will use the banlist to enforce this aggressively regardless of players' opinions? My take is that that's what they've done here, be it for better or worse.
—What the hell's happening to Vintage? Should we even care?

I think almost everyone agrees with the bans and unbans in modern. Looting is the best draw spell/graveyard combo enabler in the format. Gaak is just fucking stupid. Stone forge I'm not sure will even be good.

As for vintage karn and forge were just dumb as shit in vintage, misstep was miserable and restricted the playability of a ton of cards that otherwise are good ways to fight the broken cards in vintage, but because they were 1 drops you either don't play them or you play them + your own missteps. Basically the same reason the card was banned in legacy and modern. Phyrexian Mana is probably as much of if not more of a mistake than delve has proven to be

[PirateKing]

D&T has been up there for a very long time so not especially concerned it has dropped back a bit. And I'm sure there must be some options for them to fight it post board. Devout Decree maybe?

Force of Virtue is all you need

[Smuggo]

Force of Virtue is all you need

Ah, nice tech

[Fox]

I dunno about you guys, but I can't wait to trade some crappy art GP SFM promo foils 1-to-1 for Wrenn. We're so close!

Kinda funny though how this could actually lead to an uptick in Wrenn in legacy; that's a pretty low cost [trade] vs the ~$90 he's been at.

[Smuggo]

Yeah kinda wish I hadn't sold my promo SFMs last year now.

[morgan_coke]

Absolutely no way. Hogaak was perfectly capable of crazy powerful starts without Faithless Looting. Yeah, the loss of Faithless Looting hurts the deck, but banning just Faithless Looting also means you're hurting other decks that could fight against Hogaak.

The real question is whether the Faithless Looting ban was necessary. It's definitely a powerful card but I do question if it was overpowered outside of Hogaak decks. Maybe they were worried about Phoenix getting too good with Hogaak gone.

Even if Ancient Stirrings was too good--and I will contend it is not--it would make no sense to ban it now when none of the decks it's seeing play in are actually all that great right now. Maybe that'll shift around with Hogaak getting banned but I doubt it. Tron has the same weaknesses it's always had, while Hardened Scales and Amulet Titan aren't even Tier 1. Even if there is reason to ban Ancient Stirrings, there's no reason right now.

Are we talking Modern or Legacy here? Griselbrand and Emrakul are practically nonentities in Modern right now, so I'd think you were referring to Legacy, but you didn't indicate a shift in formats.

Hogaak wasn't as bad as Eldrazi was.

No, I meant Emrak and Brand in Modern. People forget, but before Phoenix and Hogaak made various GY hate cards the most played stuff in the format, there were a lot of stupid Modern decks based around Goryo's Vengeance stupidity, but that deck did take a big hit with the loss of looting. We'll see how the meta shakes out I guess. And I think that Tron alone justifies banning Stirrings at this point. The deck gained so much from the London Mulligan and new Karn, it's just objectively better than anything else you can be doing in modern right now.

[Ronald Deuce]

Force of Virtue is all you need

Or Giver of Runes. Or Isamaru, Hound of Konda.

You can even bounce Isamaru with Karakas if it gets P-Fired.

[Phoenix Ignition]

No, I meant Emrak and Brand in Modern. People forget, but before Phoenix and Hogaak made various GY hate cards the most played stuff in the format, there were a lot of stupid Modern decks based around Goryo's Vengeance stupidity, but that deck did take a big hit with the loss of looting. We'll see how the meta shakes out I guess. And I think that Tron alone justifies banning Stirrings at this point. The deck gained so much from the London Mulligan and new Karn, it's just objectively better than anything else you can be doing in modern right now.

I hate these decks, but they were inconsistent enough before that they weren't really worth the bad feelings that a ban would have brought from players, "LOL modern gets bans on decks that don't even see regular top 8 what a trash format," etc.

Them losing Faithless is absolutely gigantic in their consistency, which sucked before. I think they'll still see niche play, but are going to be much more inconsistent. Neoform on the other hand might bring back turn 1 Gris into a playable option.