[OLD] UGr Threshold

[Vimes]

Trygon Predator would probably have to be the best candidate, but you'd probably want to run extra miror match hate in the sideboard to balance it out. It seems to me the best answer would be to run more counters so that these problem cards never resolve and just give up on dealing with them once they resolve, as all other plans have drawbacks too significant.

If you really want to be able to answer these cards, I'd play UGbw Gro with Vindicate. Obviously the mana would be difficult, so you'd have to run a few maindeck Pithing Needles.

The bottom line: Counters are the only answers to these problem cards that are not inefficient or narrow, so the best solution is to run more counters and/or cantrips.

[mikekelley]

I have been trying this deck for awhile now, and just having tons of trouble in many matchups. I'm running 4 bolt and 2 fledgling dragon, and the rest is pretty much the basic threshold list, cantrips, bears and mongeese with a typical mana base. I just eat it to everything, I've been playing the deck for awhile now on MWS (2-3 months) and have just not been having any success at all. Decks like Zoo and Faerie Stompy, Fish and some Pikula variants have all wrecked me. Any loam-based decks preboard, etc. Am I lacking sufficient removal? I want to try Fire/Ice and Magma Jet, but the lack of success thus far is discouraging. What is keeping me from replicating the sucess i've seen in the thread thusfar?

[Citrus-God]

You played the deck wrong then. You lost against Bw Pikula (which has a better match up than White because it has more removal), and this usually has a better Fish match-up than White thresh because it can consistently answer troublesome guys (Mage, Confidant, Mom) at the beginning of the game.

1. Were you playing Predict in your build along with the 8 Cantrips and 4 Magma Jets? Is so, how do you lose those match-ups.

2. Zoo and Faerie Stompy is meant to wreck Thresh. Dont feel bad, this deck loses to 9 Land Stompy, because it's meant to be. Luckily, you can do better against 9 Land Stompy than White. Zoo is just Stompy with better and bigger creatures. yikes!

3. Dont play the Red Hatfield version of Thresh, if you want to play a Hatfield variant, play the Black or White one. If your gonna play Red, run Wastedlife's build. Nobody ever listens to me, that build wins a lot. I slapped Angel Stompy around 2-1 and sometimes 2-0. I slapped the mirror around 2-0 with that deck. I slapped Hanni Fish 2-0 with that deck. I slapped Goblins around game 2-0. I even do better against Faerie Stompy because I was able to overwhelm them with Magma Jets and Fire // Ice to draw me into counters to counter their fat/Equipment and guys to overwhelm them.

Heres a Maindeck....


// Lands 17
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Flooded Strand
4 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain
2 Island


// Creatures 10
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
2 Fledgling Dragon


// Spells 33
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Predict
3 Daze
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Magma Jet
3 Fire // Ice


// Sideboard 15
3 Pithing Needle
3 Stifle
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Pyroclasm
3 Flametongue Kavu


Heres the thing.... that decklist wins (exclude the SB, the MD is important right now). It's Burn heavy, and it's still aggresive, and your opponent sill has to play slightly more differently because you have Burn. You making them crash into more decisions. Even a bluff of a couple lands in your hand can tell them you have Burn.

[mikekelley]

Yes, I was playing 4 predict and 4 portent. I just felt like I was always overwhelmed with threats from my opponent, and a lot of times felt like my one goose or bear just wasn't enough to deal with what they were throwing at me. I will try the build with more fire/ice and magma jet, however.

[Citrus-God]

You can run Portents over Fire // Ice if your meta warrents it. Honestly, Portent is a much better cantrip than Fire // Ice, but against Aggro and Fish, you would much rather have Fire // Ice.

Also, how did you lose to Deadguy with Hatfield Thresh? I was wondering because I have always beaten Deadguy with Hatfield Thresh (it's my religion basically). Did you get early Needles on Wasteland? How efficiently did you answer their early creatures? If you feel that you have to continue running Red Hatfield Thresh, make sure you run Needles main. That's how you win. It's not the lack of removal you probably lost with Hatfield, it's the quality of those removal cards. Needles answer stupid random things too. 16 Cantrips should give you a good feel of how to use this deck to find answer consistently.

[Hanni]

U/G/r Threshold

Lands (17)
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain

Creatures (11)
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
3 Serendib Efreet

Spells (32)
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Mental Note
4 Fire//Ice
2 Magma Jet
3 Stifle
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt

That's what I would run maindeck with Needles sideboard. Stifle generates alot more tempo, which this deck wants because it wants to play the beatdown. It also answers Goblins well by stopping Ringleader... Needle stops Vial, and while Vial may fuel Goblins well, that mana is wasted mana if they don't refuel their hand constantly. Threshold runs no card draw so making sure they don't allow Goblins to win by card advantage is crucial. It's better than Pithing Needle against Solidarity too, since it can pop Fetchlands for an even larger increase in tempo. If nothing else, it can try to stop Brain Freeze. In the mirror, both Needle and Stifle aren't very good but Stifle is much better here since it can hit fetchlands or pitch to FoW. An exception may be against builds with Scepter but I haven't seen those in a while.

The Mental Notes allow the deck to become the beatdown much faster, with a path cleared by burn. Predict may be good in UGw but I definitely think Mental Note is the way to go in UGr. It is important to Portent, but Fire//Ice is alot more versatile. I love Fire//Ice and I would gladly run it instead of the rediculous amounts of pure cantrip that traditional Threshold uses. Magma Jet isn't bad either, since it's instant speed Serum Visions removal without the draw. Scry is a busted mechanic and having Scry #6 is pretty cool.

I don't think Counterspell is right for UGr. It's good in UGw, since the deck more often plays the control role against most decks. UGr wants to beat quickly and UU spells in hand are a little slow. If the deck could fit it, it would run it, but I think FoW/Daze/Stifle fit the role enough. A 4th Daze could be good but I think the redundancy of cantrip and the untargetability of Mongoose reduces the need for it.

I think Serendib is a much better option than Fledgling Dragon since it comes down a turn faster, isn't Threshold dependant, and it doesn't strain the manabase. The difference in speed between Dragon and Efreet is important for a deck that wants to play the beatdown.

That's all I have for now. I like UGr Threshold better than UGw Threshold.

[noobslayer]

I'd rather run 4 magma jet than 4 fire/ice. I suppose a 3/3 split could work too, so you still have more fodder for Force of Will pitches.

[Citrus-God]

U/G/r Threshold

Lands (17)
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain

Creatures (11)
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
3 Serendib Efreet

Spells (32)
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Mental Note
4 Fire//Ice
2 Magma Jet
3 Stifle
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt

That's what I would run maindeck with Needles sideboard. Stifle generates alot more tempo, which this deck wants because it wants to play the beatdown. It also answers Goblins well by stopping Ringleader... Needle stops Vial, and while Vial may fuel Goblins well, that mana is wasted mana if they don't refuel their hand constantly. Threshold runs no card draw so making sure they don't allow Goblins to win by card advantage is crucial. It's better than Pithing Needle against Solidarity too, since it can pop Fetchlands for an even larger increase in tempo. If nothing else, it can try to stop Brain Freeze. In the mirror, both Needle and Stifle aren't very good but Stifle is much better here since it can hit fetchlands or pitch to FoW. An exception may be against builds with Scepter but I haven't seen those in a while.

The Mental Notes allow the deck to become the beatdown much faster, with a path cleared by burn. Predict may be good in UGw but I definitely think Mental Note is the way to go in UGr. It is important to Portent, but Fire//Ice is alot more versatile. I love Fire//Ice and I would gladly run it instead of the rediculous amounts of pure cantrip that traditional Threshold uses. Magma Jet isn't bad either, since it's instant speed Serum Visions removal without the draw. Scry is a busted mechanic and having Scry #6 is pretty cool.

I don't think Counterspell is right for UGr. It's good in UGw, since the deck more often plays the control role against most decks. UGr wants to beat quickly and UU spells in hand are a little slow. If the deck could fit it, it would run it, but I think FoW/Daze/Stifle fit the role enough. A 4th Daze could be good but I think the redundancy of cantrip and the untargetability of Mongoose reduces the need for it.

I think Serendib is a much better option than Fledgling Dragon since it comes down a turn faster, isn't Threshold dependant, and it doesn't strain the manabase. The difference in speed between Dragon and Efreet is important for a deck that wants to play the beatdown.

That's all I have for now. I like UGr Threshold better than UGw Threshold.

Have you seen Pat McGregor's list? the importance and and verstality of Counterspell. You need Counterspell because of Solidarity. When they play High Tide, that's when ou know you need it. Also, your quite wrong about UGw Threshold. They play the Tempo role. they play Mental Note, they play beatdown. Meddling Mage is a creature, and creatures dont last long in this format. Mental Note exploits Mages power and helps the deck win before Mage can be ignored or answered. It's all about tempo; Meddling Mage slows your opponent down, while your men go for the throat.
Just because this deck runs Burn doesnt make it more aggressive. Burn is just flexible reach/control. If you want to deal with Goblins, run 12 burn cards or run 3 Needles maindecked. This deck can easily deal with Goblins with more hard counters. Stifles are good, but only in a certain number alongside with Counterspell.

[Solpugid]

Mental note equals NO in UGr thresh, at least from my testing. Your burn and cantrips get you threshold fast enough when combined with predict. The extra cards and card selection thus gives you better mid to late game and more chance of burning an opponent out. Also, magma jet> fire/ice almost always.

As for my UGw version...I run predict in place of note there too, but don't tell anyone.

[mikekelley]

Ancient Grudge is TECH in the SB. Don't know if it has been mentioned yet, but it's fairly obvious.

[Citrus-God]

Ancient Grudge will be considered when the metagame shifts into a more Chalice/Faerie Stompy/Aggro-Control Equipment/Stax/5/3 oriented metagame. Right now, I dont see that card being better than Engineered Explosives.

[Happy Gilmore]

Goblins in my meta SB's Chalice very consistently. The last couple weeks I have tested this sideboarding strategy in a couple ten game sets vs. a crypt chalice setup for goblins.

-2 Dragon
-1 Counterspell
-3 Pithing needle
-4 Predict

+3 Stifle
+4 Clasm
+3 Naturalize

I found that Naturalize was very comparible to Pithing Needle, and was even better if the opponent was splashing a color for (Naturalize, Disenchant, Grip).

I feel like such a noob not thinking of Grudge....that would make my FS matchup so so much better.

[Citrus-God]

I cant think of many troublesome enchantments right now.... probably Worship, Moat, and probably Sacred Ground. Rifter is kinda obsolete right now, so Lightning Rift and Humility is kinda crap. Ancient Grudge should be better.

@Happy Gilmore: What build of Threshold are you running right now? UGr Hatfield? Isnt UGw better though? Also, why do you side out Needle? I find myself Neddling Wasteland too much to ever side it out... even if you use it to deal with Chalice. Wouldnt this be better? Have you thought about siding out 3 Cantrips, or is Pyroclasm too valuable in this match up to cut Cantrips?

[Happy Gilmore]

I guess you could call it "Hatfield Grow." And I would say your problem with wasteland stems from the fact you are too reliant on drawing into your lands naturally in the early game. I wonder, are you searching for the basic islands? I have never named Wasteland against goblins with my Pithing Needles as far as I can remember.

Here is a tip as far as boarding naturalize:

"Watch how many cards they sideboard, it will probably tell you if you need to worry about Chalice or not." (Deep6er)

I rarely watch sideboarding but I'm trying to get into the habit. It is amazing how much information you can gather from your opponent this way.

[nitewolf9]

Which is why you should probably (at least at a major event) be boarding by shuffling your entire sideboard into your deck, then taking out 15 cards. Now that's pretty annoying if someone is trying to watch you board...

But yeah, I think naturalize over needle is a good idea in most cases. Tinkerer becomes useless and it seems like too much of a liability with even the possibility that they board chalice.

[Citrus-God]

I guess you could call it "Hatfield Grow." And I would say your problem with wasteland stems from the fact you are too reliant on drawing into your lands naturally in the early game. I wonder, are you searching for the basic islands? I have never named Wasteland against goblins with my Pithing Needles as far as I can remember.

Here is a tip as far as boarding naturalize:

"Watch how many cards they sideboard, it will probably tell you if you need to worry about Chalice or not." (Deep6er)

I rarely watch sideboarding but I'm trying to get into the habit. It is amazing how much information you can gather from your opponent this way.

I fetch Basics really often to tell the truth. My problems are the Port. They keep from double UU, and they make attempts to keep me off Green. If I'm running Red, I dont think I ever need to fetch out Red unless I need to play Clasm' that turn, so I tend to just sit back with Mountains in my hand.
And but searching for my own lands, did you mean the cantrip power this deck provides?

Yes, I in fact do, but the fact I'm wasting my card quality for mana seems kind of a terrible theory, even though I have won games like that, since I dedicated most of my time finding clasms and being able to cast them and swinging with my men, whereas, the UGw version of this deck seems to slowly try and deplete Goblins from the beginning before it becomes a liability mid-late game.


When I played the UGw Hatfield Gro, I found myself not worrying so much about my mana base since it takes 1 Basic Island to function off of, since I side in 3 Hydroblasts and 3 Stifles. I dont fetch my duals as much as I need to, but I'm just more interested in your game plan, since I kinda played like that when I picked up Red.

@nitewolf9: I kinda think that making Tinkerer dead is probably the best plan I've heard of in ages. Now I have to cut Krosan Grip because of you.

I have done that before... you know, sidein my entire SB. I did it game 3 and I made my opponent re-do his SB. At the end of the game, I won, and he realized I didnt make any changes to my SB plan.

[Happy Gilmore]

I fetch Basics really often to tell the truth. My problems are the Port. They keep from double UU, and they make attempts to keep me off Green. If I'm running Red, I dont think I ever need to fetch out Red unless I need to play Clasm' that turn, so I tend to just sit back with Mountains in my hand.
And but searching for my own lands, did you mean the cantrip power this deck provides?

Yes, I in fact do, but the fact I'm wasting my card quality for mana seems kind of a terrible theory, even though I have won games like that, since I dedicated most of my time finding clasms and being able to cast them and swinging with my men, whereas, the UGw version of this deck seems to slowly try and deplete Goblins from the beginning before it becomes a liability mid-late game.


When I played the UGw Hatfield Gro, I found myself not worrying so much about my mana base since it takes 1 Basic Island to function off of, since I side in 3 Hydroblasts and 3 Stifles. I dont fetch my duals as much as I need to, but I'm just more interested in your game plan, since I kinda played like that when I picked up Red.

@nitewolf9: I kinda think that making Tinkerer dead is probably the best plan I've heard of in ages. Now I have to cut Krosan Grip because of you.

I have done that before... you know, sidein my entire SB. I did it game 3 and I made my opponent re-do his SB. At the end of the game, I won, and he realized I didnt make any changes to my SB plan.

Thats a sweet trick, I've done that before when I realize my opponent is watching me. As for the way I play....I can only tell you that it is different from how I play the white version. I fetch alot less game two and three, keeping my fetches on the board. If I go for a non-basic early I normally go for a trop because I always have a Forest later on. I play no creatures before I have thresh unless I need to block lacky with Mongoose. In the mid and late game I normally ship the counterspells for burn, stifles, and creatures. I try to always have an answer for crypt and SGC if possible. Once I start putting on the beats I never go back on defense (never had to). I lose when I can't get to that point in the game.

I might also mention that the testing I did with Naturalize over Needle was done with the white version. And what I found was if my opponent was boarding Chalice that I had only 6 answers to it (all counters). If I loose game one it is going to be very hard to win game 2 unless I take a chance on boarding Naturalize. I think its a neccessary evil, but you will find its really not that bad. And now that I am using Grudge it might be even better, maybe. There is something to be said for needing your red sources earlier in the game.

[Citrus-God]

Thats a sweet trick, I've done that before when I realize my opponent is watching me. As for the way I play....I can only tell you that it is different from how I play the white version. I fetch alot less game two and three, keeping my fetches on the board. If I go for a non-basic early I normally go for a trop because I always have a Forest later on. I play no creatures before I have thresh unless I need to block lacky with Mongoose. In the mid and late game I normally ship the counterspells for burn, stifles, and creatures. I try to always have an answer for crypt and SGC if possible. Once I start putting on the beats I never go back on defense (never had to). I lose when I can't get to that point in the game.

I might also mention that the testing I did with Naturalize over Needle was done with the white version. And what I found was if my opponent was boarding Chalice that I had only 6 answers to it (all counters). If I loose game one it is going to be very hard to win game 2 unless I take a chance on boarding Naturalize. I think its a neccessary evil, but you will find its really not that bad. And now that I am using Grudge it might be even better, maybe. There is something to be said for needing your red sources earlier in the game.

I dont like the idea of Grudge against Goblins. Keeping Red on the table is very hard, even if Grudge is an instant, but I guess it should be tested since most of the disruption they'll throw at you will be Ports. I suppose using Ancient Grude on upkeep is a very exceptional thing to do.

Against Goblins, I tend to keep Counterspells in my hand. Goblins topdecks are craziest topecks ever, so I need to answer them.

Early Game I try to get an answer to Lackey, and maybe Vial. After that, I try and get as many answers as possible to answer Matrons, Ringleaders, and SCG. Late game, I still thrive for Counterspells, and I tend to also aime for my win conditions as well, since they can also double as blockers.

I will test the Naturalize plan. I have had a problem with Tinkerer, but it hanst become a liability in my metagame yet.

[Adan]

Why does nobody play Burning Tree Shaman? That guy just fits into this deck even more than Sea Drake or Serendib Efreet and it a thousan times better than Flegling Dragon.

BTS does a lot of damage in the Landstill and Rift matchup and is independable from Theshold, but got a solid body though. Well, you will also receive damage from your own Fetchlands, but that's not that important, because you got 11 Burnspells (4 Bolt and a 3/4 split of Magma Jet and F/I).

I think he gives the deck the possibility to be more straight-foward than even now.

[Happy Gilmore]

Why does nobody play Burning Tree Shaman? That guy just fits into this deck even more than Sea Drake or Serendib Efreet and it a thousan times better than Flegling Dragon.

BTS does a lot of damage in the Landstill and Rift matchup and is independable from Theshold, but got a solid body though. Well, you will also receive damage from your own Fetchlands, but that's not that important, because you got 11 Burnspells (4 Bolt and a 3/4 split of Magma Jet and F/I).

I think he gives the deck the possibility to be more straight-foward than even now.

A thousand times better? So he is a three turn clock on his own, kills Werebears, doesn't do damage to yourself, doesn't die to Dystopia, has evasion, and trades with Mystic Enforcer? I don't mean to be sarcastic but justifying a creature because you have 11 burn spells to negate his major drawback (evasion), does not make him many times better than Dragon. However, I have seen the list that T8ed in Europe with Burning Tree Shaman and if you get an chance to test a build with him against Goblins and the mirror I would be very interested in the results. The only issue I have with Dragon is his double R mana requirement. Besides that he is easily the best option for a 2 of finisher in UGR. And because of that I can see why everyone is exploring other options. I myself have been testing Fathom Sear instead but he seems weak most of the time. The protection from wasteland is neet but once you hit three mana you don't normally have to worry about waste anyway. No, the card that replaces Dragon has to be evasive and fat or its no dice.