Adding card tags for everyone's sanity, so we can see rules text and CMC.Originally Posted by Reeplcheep
Edit: If we could somehow add a way to copy the Gyruda ability, it would have a much higher probability of chaining to completion.
Panharmonicon
Yarok, the Desecrated
Naban, Dean of Iteration
Yarok is odd CMC, so involves not having Gy as companion. It could work in Commander (Yarok Commander, Gyruda companion with all even CMC cards and many clones).
Naban needs another combo piece to hack creature types (change the text on Naban, or change Gy to a Wizard)
But Panharmonicon is an even cmc artifact and easy to cast...
Gynomicon
//Lands: 18
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Saprazzan Skerry
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Peat Bog
//Artifacts: 16
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Defense Grid
4 Panharmonicon
//Creatures: 26
4 Phantasmal Image
4 Dack's Duplicate
4 Phyrexian Metamorph
4 Evil Twin
4 Felidar Guardian
4 Wispweaver Angel
2 Gyruda, Doom of Depths
//Sideboard Plan A - Protection:
1 Gyruda, Doom of Depths
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Leyline of Lifeforce
3 Echoing Truth
3 Thorn of Amethyst
//Sideboard Plan B - Transform:
1 Gyruda, Doom of Depths
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Helm of Obedience
This has a slightly higher fizzle rate in a vacuum (26 creatures vs 30 creatures). But with a resolved Panharmonicon (1 card combo) the fizzle rate for a complete chain should shrink dramatically (see 8 cards per clone instead of 4). So when you start, it's much more likely you complete the chain to the end.
The Angels/Guardians stick around. Gyruda trigger can also target an opponent's creature if you have extra triggers (from the copy) or you whiff on yours (no targets), so it's still possible to get a decent board presence if you can't complete the chain.
Finally postboard you could just transform into Clone Stompy. Stax pieces and HelmLine are decent ways to win, especially if the opponent is focused on stopping a combo.
Yes I screwed up multiple times with my list. Was focusing on trying to make a consistent kill with only 2 or 3 hits, instead of trying to have the 10+ hits you need to mill kill. I still think the clones list have way too many creatures and not enough mana to consistently hit 6 mana turn 1.
Fixing the above issues
:
// Protection 6
4 Unmask
2 Defense Grid
//Chaining creatures 14
2 Restoration Angel
3 Gyruda, Doom of Depths
1 Evil Twin
4 Spark Double
4 Wispweaver Angel
//Finishers 8
4 Dragonlord Kolaghan
4 Bladewing's Thrall
//Fast mana 16
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
//Lands 16
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Peat Bog
//Sideboard 15
4 Leyline of Lifeforce
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Echoing Truth
1 Gyruda, Doom of Depths
3 Massacre Wurm
The finishers means we only have to hit 2-4 times instead of 13. This gives a much lower fizzle rate even with a much lower creature count. This means we can run more fast mana (cabal ritual) and disruption (unmask). For example even just gyruda into kologhans plus a thrall is 15 hasty power, 9 of it flying.
Another thing I would like to add is as a t1 combo deck that can win by only casting creatures leyline of lifeforce seems amazing. And spark double seems like the best clone since the non-legendary clause keeps 7 power instead of 0. I would think about adding some coalition relics, as it both is reasonable ramp for the combo and means we can actually hard cast our threats as a plan b.
Panharmonicon + Gyruda, Doom of Depths + Felidar Guardian
1) Gy enters. Triggers twice. Mill 8 cards each, return up to 2 creatures.
2) If Guardian or Angel are in those cards, trigger twice targeting Gy both times.
3) Gy flickers once (other abilty is countered). Triggers twice. Mill 8 cards each, return up to 2 creatures.
4) If any Clone or Guardian/Angel is in there, copy Guardian/Angel. Trigger twice. Target Gy once and the other Guardian once.
etc...
From there it's basically exponential, as long as you have 1 hit per 8 cards you build up so many triggers you can steal all their Tarmogoyfs while milling them out and making a bunch of Angel copies.
No I was talking about the non-panharminicon lists. Panharmicon definitely won't fizzle but then you are playing a 1.5 card combo, that can't be faster than t3, with no card selection, instead of a 0.5 card, t1 combo, with no card selection.
Edit: Essentially what I am saying is that the strength and niche of this combo is that it is a zero card combo that all you have to do is feed it mana. Adding any other moving pieces to this deck that you need to have before resolving gyruda will make it a worse beltcher/oops imo.
Right, but what's better?
A) 1.5 card combo that doesn't fizzle and wins the game that turn
B) "0.5 card combo" that still needs multi-card combo to make 6 mana, that just makes some bodies with high variance
The weakness of the combo is the extremely high variance of getting 6 mana on turn 1. You need LED, which makes it a 1.5 combo anyway. You're higher variance to assemble and lower payoff than decks like Oops All Spells, the benchmark for turn 1 all-in cheese.
I don't see the problem with a T3 combo if you play DGrid, Chalice or Thorn on turn 1.
You can cast it without Panharmonicon too. It will just have a higher fizzle rate, but so does the non-Panharmonicon build.
Finally I think the transform board into Stax is an underrated option. You can play a fair Stax game and just win with disrupting spells, hardcasting Clones, and having a 6/6 companion that steals a Goyf, Strix or Thalia (+2 cards for free).
The point of my list is that with 4 extra fast mana sources you have a reasonable shot at 6 mana by t2 or t1. bog, cavern, petal, petal, cabal rit is a great hand that is super sketchy with a clone or panharmicon in that slot.
If your 1.5 card combo can't go off before t3 it seems like you should just play storm or elves.
Compared to oops you don't need the 8 of you just need mana and you aren't dead to grave hate. And you can run lands so that you can go off multiple times, and can run better mana sources & cavern. Compared to belcher you again don't have to mull hands without your wincon, and 20 hasty power is much better than 12 goblins in the age of plague engineer.
My deck could also play 3 coalition relics [Edit: I am stupid, you would have to play firemind vessel instead and change 2 wispweavers to 2 resto angels] in the board and transform into just a random big creature deck if you value a transitional board.
The issue I see with that is Lotus Petal, Chrome Mox, and Cabal Rit are each only +1 mana for each card (Petal and Ritual are 1-time use too)
Sol lands and depletion lands are +2 mana per card and work more than once
LED is +3 mana
Trying to hit 6 mana on turn 1 your way involves chaining more +1 cards together, taking up more cards. Card-intensive combos like that also mean you're really punished by mulligans. Doing it without Lotus Petal and Rituals but more lands takes up fewer cards and has more reusable sources, but does cost tempo to play land drops and risk Wasteland vulnerability.
Compared to Oops, you need to hit more mana on turn 1 and you risk losing to stuff like a single Swords to Plowshares in response to the first trigger, and you can't run some effects like Chancellor or Pact of Negation as protection.
Cavern is kind of useless if your target is turn 1 with +1 effects. It makes it harder to hit 6 mana, and even if you can they'll just counter LED or the ritual instead, so you're still stopped by FoW/Daze/Pierce. Cavern and Grid make more sense in a grindier build that hits 6 with lands.
It's worth testing to see if you can make it work turn 1 consistently. It just looks too inconsistent to both hit 6 mana and then flip enough creatures to hit a threatening position. You're right though, Panharmonicon may be too slow to actually lead to wins.
Good luck. Maybe you can make something of it. For a turn 1 deck, I'm just going back to my Song of Creation/Echo deck. That is surprisingly consistent at turn 1-2s, can play slow around hate, and mulligans really well.
You are right that adding more plus 1 cards seems bad. But you don't need to mulligan since you always have the combo. Its possible I should add grim monolith as another +3, but then I need to figure out how to get BB. Firemind vessel is a +2, but adds UB.
Ok so you were definitely right the deck needs more +3. Added monolith as a +1 if you have the t1 and +3 for the reliable t2. Dimir signet fixes the double coloured mana very efficiently because of gyruda's hybrid mana nature even though it is technically a -1 t1 and +1 t2. Street wraith was an idead to hit black count while sort of being a mana source.
Don't know how to insert tables but here is 20 hands with list. Street wraith was horrible, stopping chains and rarely drawing mana. Should run reclamation angel or bladewing thrall. Grim monolith plus signet was great and having too much mana but not enough colours was rarely and issue. Numbers marked in bold means I either could have had hast and more power if no haste or I could have kept going if it has haste
Game Opening Hand size Mana in opener Gyruda cast turn Protection Power on board from gyruda Bodies Haste? Rules
1 7 4 4 Y 24 4 Y Only mull hands with less than 2 mana from initial mana sources and less than 3 total mana
2 7 8 2 Y 12 2 Y always cycle if possible
3 7 6 4 Y 9 2 N prioritze chrome mox over unmask
4 7 5 2 Y 18 3 N stop on haste creature only if will make >15 power
5 7 8 2 N 9 2 N Assume clone of spark double is non legendary??
6 5 5 2 N 6 1 N protection = unmask or cavern
7 7 7 2 Y 15 3 N
8 7 6 2 Y 12 2 Y
9 7 5 2 Y 9 2 N
10 7 3 3 N 36 6 Y
11 7 3 4 N 12 2 Y
12 6 4 3 Y 9 2 N
13 7 5 2 Y 12 2 N
14 7 5 4 N 18 3 Y
15 7 5 2 N 12 2 Y
16 7 5 4 N 27 5 N
17 7 4 5 Y 6 1 N
18 7 5 3 Y 9 2 N
19 7 9 2 N 18 3 Y
20 7 11 1 N 24 4 Y
4 Spark Double
4 Dragonlord Kolaghan
3 Gyruda, Doom of Depths
4 Evil Twin
4 Grim Monolith
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 City of Traitors
3 Sakashima the Impostor
4 Street Wraith
4 Unmask
4 Lotus Petal
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Cabal Ritual
2 Dimir Signet
4 Leyline of Lifeforce
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Echoing Truth
1 Gyruda, Doom of Depths
3 Pact of Negation
You can't play Street Wraith, it has an odd cost.
Yeah, and even if you could play Street Wraith it's not good. I was never happy with it in decks like Belcher. It leads to harder mulligan decisions because you don't know if Street Wraith will cycle you into that last missing mana source or a dud, when you could just have business in that slot instead.
Grim Monolith + Signet looks good.
It looks like you often had protection and got large amount of power on the board, which is good.
The Gyurda cast turn is turn 2-4. If you're going off turn 2-4 and not turn 1, then why not run more lands and use lands as ramp? Depletion lands are +2 and give you both colored mana. Could you get any turn 1s?
well I'm not doing very well then am I. it was horrible anyways. Updated list (with wispweaver angel) and testing. Only needing 3 or 4 hits to win is a big plus.
Game | Opening Hand size | Mana in opener | Gyruda cast turn | # of Protection | Power on board from gyruda | Bodies | Haste?
1 7 6 2 2 24 6 Y
2 7 5 2 0 12 2 N
3 7 6 2 1 22 4 Y
4 7 9 2 1 12 2 N
5 7 9 2 1 36 6 Y
6 7 7 2 1 24 4 N
7 7 4 3 1 12 2 N
8 7 7 3 1 18 3 Y
9 7 11 1 0 34 6 Y
10 7 8 1 1 12 2 Y
11 7 8 2 2 12 2 Y
12 7 4 2 2 18 3 Y
13 6 6 2 0 16 3 Y
14 7 6 3 3 18 3 N
15 7 4 5 1 18 3 N
16 6 6 3 2 22 4 Y
17 7 7 2 2 26 5 Y
18 7 4 3 1 48 10 Y
19 7 6 3 2 24 4 Y
20 7 10 1 0 22 4 Y
4 Spark Double
4 Dragonlord Kolaghan
3 Gyruda, Doom of Depths
4 Evil Twin
4 Grim Monolith
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 City of Traitors
4 Sakashima the Impostor
4 Wispweaver Angel
4 Unmask
4 Lotus Petal
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Cabal Ritual
2 Dimir Signet
4 Leyline of Lifeforce
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Echoing Truth
1 Gyruda, Doom of Depths
3 Pact of Negation
Glad to see the list keeps refining!
The turn 2 land to go with Monolith is Darkwater Catacombs. Monolith+Signet only leads to turn 3.
Haste enabler + Twin makes intruiguing decisions on what to bring back to the table.
A few other Haste enablers are good enough to pair Gyruda for a 1-turn clock:
Maelstrom Wanderer
Maze Rusher
Cyclops of Eternal Fury
Griselbrand is worthy on its own to break the chain. Wonder if there are more such creatures.
On the Sep 2011 Ban List Updates,
Depletion lands don't play nearly as nicely with monolith and signet, which are pretty key to this build. I should probably consider crystal vein though. The turn is the 4th column, I went off t1 1/4 of the time, t2 1/2 the time and t3/t4 the remaining 4. I was using the mulligan rules above to be consistent, more aggressive mulliganning would probably make it faster.
Hey thanks for the suggestions! Being black for unmask was my primary consideration to kologhans. The synergy with milling the opponent with gyruda is also kinda cute.
Dark water catacombs could very well be better than signet, thanks!
Do you think we can go off again with griselbrand? Any LED's are dead usually.
You don't need Signets with Depletion lands. Peat Bog gives you both colored mana
Signets are just +1 and need to be cast a turn earlier. Lands are +2.
Signets are not useful from an acceleration perspective, only from a filtering perspective because you need colored mana. But if you just run other colored sources instead then you could cut Signets and gain speed. Darkwater Catacombs also works, though it's just +1 mana, but it has better tempo if you curve out T1 Sol Land + Monolith.
For other creatures there's also Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur (even CMC). In some ways it's worse than Griselbrand, but if it makes them discard their hand then a 6/6 and 5/4 will probably win the game. It's also blue for Chrome Mox. So is Maelstrom Wanderer. They don't play well with Unmask though.
I think catacombs is the choice as you said because it works better curving out. Jin-Gitaxias seems like a very good choice as it is more disruptive vs combo, considering the deck doesn't have many ways of going off again or discard
a very important question is a clone of spark double still not-legendary? Does anyone know the answer, as it makes chains much longer.so if you get a spark double, then hit a Dack's Duplicate and create just copies of this guy. then all your subsequent clones also get haste too right?
Yes the clone copies all characteristics from the Spark Double copy, which includes that it's not Legendary (but not the +1 counter).
If you clone a Dack's Duplicate copy of a Spark Double, subsequent clones are nonlegendary with Dethrone and haste.
If you hit them in the reverse order (Duplicate first then Spark Double), you can sac the original Gy to the Legend rule and keep the Dack's Duplicate (same thing but with Dethrone and Haste), then the Spark Double will be a nonlegendary copy with Dethrone and Haste.
If you go the disruptive route, Sire of Insanity might be better than Jin-Gitaxias. You don't get to draw cards, but the opponent discards immediately (no main phase to try to salvage things). Sire is also a bigger body and is black for Chrome Mox and Unmask. Turn 1 Sire is already known to win games of Magic (especially without being vulnerable to Surgical), so even just hardcasting that as a Plan B might do it.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Reply With Quote