7. RoosterCocoa: Mountain, Keldon Halberdier, Keldon Halberdier, Fury
1. Asthereal (TO): Eldrazi Temple, Eye of Ugin, Thought-Knot Seer, Thought-Knot Seer
OTP I suspend my halberdiers on my turns 1 and 2, so they come off of suspend on turns 5 and 6. The first thought-knot enters on your turn 2, and the second enters on your turn 3 while you attack me to 16. On your turn 4 you attack me to 8. On my turn 5 I get my halberdier, so you can only attack me to 4, and then once my second halberdier comes off of suspend you can't win. However, if you just stop attacking once I am at 8, I can't attack either since you will just double block a halberdier and then your one thought-knot outraces my halberdier. Thus we draw. OTD suspend is too slow and I lost. DL
2. mattamort: Thought-knot seer, Dismember, Eye of ugin, Eldrazi temple
OTP You can't race me down quickly enough, so we end up in a stare off after you dismember a halberdier. OTD you either dismember one and take the other with thought-knot, or I hold them both back until thought-knot is played and you take Fury, and manage to exactly kill me before a halberdier comes off of suspend. DL
3. alphastryk: Forest, Durkwood Baloth, Durkwood Baloth, Dismember
After you dismember a halberdier, I can't beat the baloths. LL
4. Phasmoid: Eldrazi Temple, Eye of Ugin, Thought-Knot Seer, Thought-Knot Seer
Same as Asthereal. DL
5. dte: Sungrass prairie, Sandstone needle, rith's charm, Anurid Scavenger
OTP I suspend one halberdier and save the other so I can fury the scavenger, which I will do whenever you play it. You rith's charm on turn 2 for 3 1/1s. On turn 3 you attack me to 17, on turn 4 to 14, and then my halberdier enters on my turn 5. We both win in 5 attacks, so I win the race since I attack first. OTD the halberdier enters too late to win the race, and if I don't attack you can't win, so we draw. WD
6. jhhdk: Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai, Crystal Vein, Crucible of worlds, Smokestack
As far as I can tell you get crucible on turn 2, then smokestack on turn 4, so you make a 1/1 from turn 5 onward. I can't force 20 damage through that before my halberdiers die to smokestack, so I lose. LL
8. Wrath of Pie: Calciform Pools, Geier Reach Sanitarium, Chronosavant, Elspeth, Knight-Errant
If you go for Elspeth, I my 2 halberdiers are enough to kill her before she can kill me since you only get a single 1/1 per turn. If you go for chronosavant, I think you're too slow since you have to skip a turn, so I still win. WW
9. PJim: Elvish Spirit Guide, Elvish Spirit Guide, Mountain,Magus of the Moon
I fury the magus and then win eventually. WW
10. Reeplcheep: Mishra’s Factory , Mishra’s Factory, Rishadan Port , Cathedral of War
You can at most make a factory a 4/4 when attacking or blocking, so you can't kill my halberdiers without double blocking. OTP I suspend both halberdiers before you can port me, so you try to race me down. On turn 2 you attack me to 18. On turn 3 you attack me to 15. On turn 4 you attack me to 11. I get my first halberdier on turn 5, so you can't attack anymore. Since you can double block to kill a halberdier and then I would lose the race afterwards, I don't attack either and we draw. OTD if you port me from turn 2 onwards, I can only suspend 1 halberdier. This means you only attack me with a 3/3 on turns 4 and 5 before the halberdier comes off of suspend, so I'm at 14 when it enters. I then attack you each turn with the halberdier. Blocking is a losing strategy for you, so you also attack. We end up with me at 5 and you at 8 on one of my turns. If I attack with the halberdier taking you down to 4, you attack me down to 2 and don't port me. If I attack you chump block with your second factory and win, and if I don't you win by attacking with both factories. Therefore, when I am at 5 and you are at 8 I stop attacking, and we draw. DD
11. maxx!: Elvish Spirit Guide, Elvish Spirit Guide, Mountain, Magus of the Moon
I fury the magus and then win eventually. WW
12. silkster: Sandstone Needle, Eldrazi Temple, Pillage, Thought-Knot Seer
OTP I get both halberdiers which you can't beat with your thought-knot. OTD I only get one, so we end up in a draw. WD
13. FTW: Remote Farm, Urza's Saga, Crucible of Worlds, Gideon Blackblade
I think Gideon on turn 2 and a 2/2 construct on turn 3 are too fast for me. LL
14. GoblinSmashmaster: Sandstone Needle, Sheltered Valley, Goblin Rabblemaster, Magus of the Moon
I save fury and a halberdier for the rabblemaster, since my turn 1 suspended halberdier can outrace the magus. If you play rabblemaster before magus, I fury it and the token and win the race with the magus afterwards. If you chump block with the magus and then play the rabblemaster, I fury it and still win. WW
15. Serguei: Eldrazi Temple, Eye of Ugin, Thought-Knot Seer, Thought-Knot Seer
Same as Asthereal. DL
10W 8D 10L = 38
I never actually looked up how evoke worked and assumed it was instant speed. It turns out it isn't, so dismember would have just been better here since it would have let me have both removal and two creatures. Even ignoring that, I tried to be too smart. I saw that Magus of the Moon would probably be good so I made a deck that would beat it, and then magus was barely played.
Last edited by RoosterCocoa; 08-27-2021 at 05:26 PM.
1. Asthereal (TO): Eldrazi Temple, Eye of Ugin, Thought-Knot Seer, Thought-Knot Seer
3-3
3
2. mattamort: Thought-knot seer, Dismember, Eye of ugin, Eldrazi temple
3-3
6
3. alphastryk: Forest, Durkwood Baloth, Durkwood Baloth, Dismember
6-0
12
4. Phasmoid: Eldrazi Temple, Eye of Ugin, Thought-Knot Seer, Thought-Knot Seer
3-3
15
5. dte: Sungrass prairie, Sandstone needle, rith's charm, Anurid Scavenger
me, who had not thought of TKS and thought magus was already banned...
6. jhhdk: Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai, Crystal Vein, Crucible of worlds, Smokestack
6-0
21
7. RoosterCocoa: Mountain, Keldon Halberdier, Keldon Halberdier, Fury
1-4
22
8. Wrath of Pie: Calciform Pools, Geier Reach Sanitarium, Chronosavant, Elspeth, Knight-Errant
6-0
28
9. PJim: Elvish Spirit Guide, Elvish Spirit Guide, Mountain,Magus of the Moon
0-6
28
10. Reeplcheep: Mishra’s Factory , Mishra’s Factory, Rishadan Port , Cathedral of War
6-0
34
11. maxx!: Elvish Spirit Guide, Elvish Spirit Guide, Mountain, Magus of the Moon
0-6
34
12. silkster: Sandstone Needle, Eldrazi Temple, Pillage, Thought-Knot Seer
3-3
37
13. FTW: Remote Farm, Urza's Saga, Crucible of Worlds, Gideon Blackblade
6-0
43
14. GoblinSmashmaster: Sandstone Needle, Sheltered Valley, Goblin Rabblemaster, Magus of the Moon
3-3
46
15. Serguei: Eldrazi Temple, Eye of Ugin, Thought-Knot Seer, Thought-Knot Seer
3-3
49
I expected a lot of full lands, baloth, dismember, maze and foil. But it turns out foil is banned, magus is not, and no one played maze. Oh, and also that TKS is a card.
1. Asthereal (TO): Eldrazi Temple, Eye of Ugin, Thought-Knot Seer, Thought-Knot Seer LL
2. mattamort: Thought-knot seer, Dismember, Eye of ugin, Eldrazi temple LL
3. alphastryk: Forest, Durkwood Baloth, Durkwood Baloth, Dismember WW
4. Phasmoid: Eldrazi Temple, Eye of Ugin, Thought-Knot Seer, Thought-Knot Seer LL
5. dte: Sungrass prairie, Sandstone needle, rith's charm, Anurid Scavenger LL
6. jhhdk: Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai, Crystal Vein, Crucible of worlds, Smokestack <--- ME
7. RoosterCocoa: Mountain, Keldon Halberdier, Keldon Halberdier, Fury WW
8. Wrath of Pie: Calciform Pools, Geier Reach Sanitarium, Chronosavant, Elspeth, Knight-Errant WW
9. PJim: Elvish Spirit Guide, Elvish Spirit Guide, Mountain,Magus of the Moon LL
10. Reeplcheep: Mishra’s Factory , Mishra’s Factory, Rishadan Port , Cathedral of War LL
11. maxx!: Elvish Spirit Guide, Elvish Spirit Guide, Mountain, Magus of the Moon LL
12. silkster: Sandstone Needle, Eldrazi Temple, Pillage, Thought-Knot Seer LL
13. FTW: Remote Farm, Urza's Saga, Crucible of Worlds, Gideon BlackbladeWWLL
14. GoblinSmashmaster: Sandstone Needle, Sheltered Valley, Goblin Rabblemaster, Magus of the Moon LL
15. Serguei: Eldrazi Temple, Eye of Ugin, Thought-Knot Seer, Thought-Knot Seer LL
My other deck might have done better: Volrath's Stronghold, Ebon Stronghold, Crucible of worlds, Shriekmaw.
I think I might have won against Thought-Knot Seer decks, but I think I'd still lose to most Magus of the moon-decks.
Last edited by jhhdk; 08-26-2021 at 01:42 PM.
How do you WW against me?Originally Posted by jhhdk
OTD you do not see your second land and never cast anything.
Also, I can have 7 creatures by my turn 4, so smokestack doesn't do much even if you are OTP.
Also vs Reeplcheep I don't think you beat rishadan port so easily.
I don't. 3 x 1/1 every turn beats Smokestack@2, reading cards helps.
You are right again, I didn't think it through.
I'll update results.
13. FTW: Remote Farm, Urza's Saga, Crucible of Worlds, Gideon Blackblade
I expected more lands.dec with Urza's Saga, so I used the variation that beat the mirrors, but completely missed that turboMoon was unbanned.
My deck can go Construct aggro:
T2 Crucible
T3 1 Construct (2/2), replay tapped Farm
T4 2 Constructs (3/3), replay Saga at L1
T5 3 Constructs (4/4), replay tapped Farm
T6 4 Constructs (5/5), replay Saga at L1
T7 5 Constructs (6/6), replay tapped Farm
etc.
I can also play Gideon first:
T2 Gideon +1 [5 counters]
T3 Crucible, replay tapped Farm, +1 [6 counters]
T4 1 Construct (2/2), replay Saga at L1, +1 or -6 Gideon
T5 2 Constructs (3/3), replay tapped Farm
T6 3 Constructs (4/4), replay Saga at L1
etc.
I can either go for more constructs or I can slow down by 1 to get early 4/4 Gideon. Gideon's -6 ability is relevant against recursion engines. He can also give abilities to attacking constructs.
1. Asthereal (TO): OTP I play Crucible before TKS, so you exile Gideon. On your T3 you play 2nd TKS (taking nothing) and attack for 4. On your T4 you can attack with both TKS but I'll have 2 3/3 Constructs, so I can gang block and trade 1 Construct for 1 TKS (going to 12). Then next turn I'll have 2 3/3s again. If you don't attack, I make an even bigger army.
OTD TKS takes Crucible (otherwise I can do the same thing and stabilize at 4 life). I can play T2 Gideon and make a 1/1 Construct, or make 2 2/2 Constructs, but neither is enough to beat 2 4/4s.
WL 3-3
2. mattamort: OTP I get Crucible first and my constructs race 1 TKS. OTD you take Crucible with TKS. I can either make 2 2/2 Constructs (could trade with 4/4) or make Gideon, but Dismember breaks either one.
WL 3-3
3. alphastryk: Your 1st Baloth resolves on turn 6. By then I have 4 5/5s so it isn't even close. Dismembering one and going first help you a bit, but not enough. WW 6-0
4. Phasmoid: Same as Asthereal. OTP I get Crucible first and my Constructs race TKS. OTD you get Crucible and your 4/4s beat Gideon. WL 3-3
5. dte: Edit: Your engine is faster than I thought. LL 0-6
6. jhhdk: You play T2 Crucible (replay Vein), T3 2x Vein into Smokestack, T4 1 soot counter & replay Vein, T5 sac & replay Gods' eye for +1 creature. This is really slow. Not sure how you beat me.
OTP I play T2 Gideon and +1 to 5. T3 Crucible, attack for 4, +1 to 6 counters. T4 1 Construct, attack for 4 [J=8], +1 to 7 counters. On your turn 4 you put a counter on Smokestack. On my turn 5 I sacrifice a construct, then -1 to exile Smokestack. Now you can't make creatures, remove my permanents, or do anything. 4/4 + infinite constructs should win that.
OTD you're a turn faster but I can suicide Gideon on T4 to still exile Smokestack, then win with Constructs vs empty board.
WW 6-0
7. RoosterCocoa: You can make Keldon on turn 5. First strike is very relevant vs Construct gang-blocks, and Fury makes that worse. So I play Gideon first.
T2 Gideon +1 to 5 counter. T3 Crucible, attack for 4, +1 to 6. T4 2/2 Construct, attack for 4 [R=12], +1 to 7 counters. Gideon will always be too big to kill with Fury. On your turn 5 you get Keldon, but I can chump with a Construct and then -6 to exile it. If you then Fury Gideon to kill it, you're out of bodies and my Constructs win. If you suspended the 2nd Keldon to resolve on turn 6, it's dangerous but I can just make 1 Construct per turn to chump while Gideon beats down.
WW 6-0
8. Wrath of Pie: Not the best round to default to Elspeth. By the time you get Elspeth, Gideon's -6 can exile her. If you go for Chronosavant first, Gideon + Constructs might even kill you first. WW 6-0
9. PJim: Magus beats my deck. LL 0-6
10. Reeplcheep: OTP I play T2 Crucible before you get Port up. Then you still have to Port, otherwise Gideon is a problem. Porting stalls your Factory beatdown, and from there my Construct army should win this, since I can make Constructs on upkeep if you try to Port me off Gideon.
OTD you can Port me off Crucible, so I can only make 1 Construct and then lose. WL 3-3
11. maxx!: Magus beats my deck. LL 0-6
12. silkster: OTP I play T2 Crucible before you can Pillage or TKS. Then I can survive Pillage and swarm past TKS.
OTD Pillaging my land wrecks me. WL 3-3
14. GoblinSmashmaster: OTP I get T2 Gideon before you play T2 Magus. Then you can keep attacking Gideon to keep him off -6, but Gideon kills you the turn before Magus can kill Gideon.
OTD T2 Magus locks me out. WL 3-3
15. Serguei: Same as Asthereal. OTP I get Crucible first and Constructs beat the TKS. OTD TKS takes Crucible, I play Gideon, but your 4/4s can kill Gideon. WL 3-3
45 points (15 wins, 13 loss)
I also had the TKS deck in mind, but I thought this would be more fun and creative.
Last edited by FTW; 08-26-2021 at 12:58 PM.
I don't see how you win here. Smokestack is slow to get online. Gideon can exile Smokestack and also does a good job of beating down fast while I sacrifice Constructs or lands.
It might not be obvious how fast my deck can make bodies, so I posted the math above.
1. Asthereal (TO): Eldrazi Temple, Eye of Ugin, Thought-Knot Seer, Thought-Knot Seer
2. mattamort: Thought-knot seer, Dismember, Eye of ugin, Eldrazi temple
3. alphastryk: Forest, Durkwood Baloth, Durkwood Baloth, Dismember DL
4. Phasmoid: Eldrazi Temple, Eye of Ugin, Thought-Knot Seer, Thought-Knot Seer
5. dte: Sungrass prairie, Sandstone needle, rith's charm, Anurid Scavenger LL
6. jhhdk: Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai, Crystal Vein, Crucible of worlds, Smokestack WW
7. RoosterCocoa: Mountain, Keldon Halberdier, Keldon Halberdier, Fury DL
8. Wrath of Pie: Calciform Pools, Geier Reach Sanitarium, Chronosavant, Elspeth, Knight-Errant
9. PJim: Elvish Spirit Guide, Elvish Spirit Guide, Mountain,Magus of the Moon LL
10. Reeplcheep: Mishra’s Factory , Mishra’s Factory, Rishadan Port , Cathedral of War Me
11. maxx!: Elvish Spirit Guide, Elvish Spirit Guide, Mountain, Magus of the Moon LL
12. silkster: Sandstone Needle, Eldrazi Temple, Pillage, Thought-Knot Seer
13. FTW: Remote Farm, Urza's Saga, Crucible of Worlds, Gideon Blackblade WL
14. GoblinSmashmaster: Sandstone Needle, Sheltered Valley, Goblin Rabblemaster, Magus of the Moon LL
15. Serguei: Eldrazi Temple, Eye of Ugin, Thought-Knot Seer, Thought-Knot Seer LL
I should have played inkmoths, but I wanted to play around chancellors plus leyline which was banned anyways.
Turbo Gideon is definitely a losing line:
T2 Gideon, T2 Anurid, T3 crucible (G6) and replay farm, T3 upkeep 3 tokens, replay land, put G at 3, T4 G at 4, saga at 1, my T4 I kill G, put you at 18, and destroy farm. Your T5 you rplay farm, saga is at 2. My T5 I replay needle, attack you to 12. Your T6 you can play one construct before saccing saga, my T6 I attack you to 7 and destroy farm --> you lose
Now turbo constructs:
T2 CoW, saga on 1 (S1).
If I go Anurid first, T2 anurid.
T3 S2, 1 construct, replay farm
T3 upkeep sac needle, destroy farm, draw and replay needle, attack to 17.
T4 S3 and sac saga, replay farm, attack me to 18.
T4 draw charm, attack to 14.
T5 play saga (1), I destroy farm EoT. You attack me to 16.
T5 draw and play needle (FTW 11)
T6 S2, play farm, attack (d14)
T6 draw charm, destroy farm, attack (FTW 8)
T7 S3, sac saga, play farm
T7 draw charm, sac needle make 3 tokens, attack FTW to 5.
T8 play saga on 1
T8 win.
I do not see how you can gain anything by mixing up the two approaches. The thing with saga not making constructs at 1 lore, and getting sacrificed at 3, together with farm EtB tapped, makes it fine to only be able to play charm twice over 3 turns.
So I think it is still 6-0 for me.
Otherwise very cool deck with crucible/saga, but it feels like gideon is maybe a bit underwhelming.
Interesting. I did not realize you could play T2 Anurid (thought it would die on upkeep and lose your engine), but that line works.
I had you on T2 Charm, T3 Anurid, T4 return land & play tapped land, T5 return & play Charm. That was slow enough for me to interact (Turbo Constructs to stall, eventually spending a turn on Gideon), but not with 6 power on turn 3 and replaying Charm turn 4.
Yes, the decks has two main lines : T2 stone rain, or 7 creatures on T4 (including a protection black, I was expecting more dismember).
The good thing on Anurid is that you don't have to target a card from the graveyard.
Yeah sorta forgot about his ultimate, i thought it would be too slow to be relevant (it kind of almost looked like it was when I convinced myself you'd play Crucible before Gideon).
I have updated my results accordingly.
me: 4. Phasmoid: Eldrazi Temple, Eye of Ugin, Thought-Knot Seer, Thought-Knot Seer
other people with the same deck:
1. Asthereal (TO): Eldrazi Temple, Eye of Ugin, Thought-Knot Seer, Thought-Knot Seer
15. Serguei: Eldrazi Temple, Eye of Ugin, Thought-Knot Seer, Thought-Knot Seer
we 2-2 each other:
1 of each player’s TKSes exiles 1 of the other player’s TKSes, then the creatures either stare or trade.
46 points
2. mattamort: Thought-knot seer, Dismember, Eye of ugin, Eldrazi temple WD 4-1
When I am OTP, I exile your TKS and then 1 of my TKSes wins.
when I am OTD:
If you _don’t_ cast T2 TKS, then I win in the same way as
when I’m OTP, so you cast T2 TKS and exile 1 of my TKSes.
I cast my other TKS. You are tapped out, so you can’t respond with Dismember,
so I exile Dismember. After that, our creatures either stare or trade.
3. alphastryk: Forest, Durkwood Baloth, Durkwood Baloth, Dismember WD 4-1
I will cast T2 TKS, exiling Dismember if possible. If that exiles Dismember, then my creatures
deal 4,8,8 damage to you on turns 3,4,5 respectively, winning before either Baloth enters.
Thus, on the turn just before my T2, you _don’t_ suspend a Baloth,
and on my T2, you Dismember my creature in response to its trigger.
That costs you 4 life, and when the trigger resolves I exile a Baloth.
I cast T3 TKS, and it attacks on turns 4 and 5, reducing you to 8 life.
when I am OTP:
You don’t suspend on T1, so it would take till your T7 for you to get
a Baloth on the battlefield. My creature kills you the turn before that.
when I am OTD:
You _do_ suspend on T1. That is a threat, so I cast T2 TKS as described.
The suspended Baloth enters the battlefield on your T6. At that point, it would need
4 attacks to kill me, whereas TKS would only need 2 attacks to kill you, so we stare.
5. dte: Sungrass prairie, Sandstone needle, rith's charm, Anurid Scavenger WL 3-3
when I am OTP:
T2 TKS exiles Anurid Scavenger, stopping you from retrieving anything.
Land destruction leaves your nothing against my creature, and damage prevention
just delays things 1 turn, so you create three 1/1s. I cast my other TKS.
All blocks by you are chump-blocks, and 5 unblocked TKS attacks kills you.
Since you have only 3 blockers, 4 double-attacks is enough for that,
so you can’t attack more than 4 times before you lose.
4 attacks by you deals at most 12 damage to me, so I win.
when I am OTD:
I initially missed the do nothing idea, but that doesn't work for me either.
If I play a land on T1, then Rith’s Charm destroys it, so I can’t do anything.
In that case, although I figure there's _probably_ a recursion that lets you keep
Scavenger forever, that doesn't matter in this case, since Scavenger retrieves
Needle and Rith’s Charm, and then Rith’s Charm creating 1/1s works for you.
If I _don't_ play a land on T1, then you win as described in my post 2 after this post.
6. jhhdk: Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai, Crystal Vein, Crucible of worlds, Smokestack WW 6-0
T2 TKS exiles Smokestack and wins.
7. RoosterCocoa: Mountain, Keldon Halberdier, Keldon Halberdier, Fury WD 4-1
when I am OTP:
T2 TKS exiles a Halberdier. If you use Fury, then your nothing loses to my creature.
If you don’t, then my creatures deal 4,8,8 damage to you on
turns 3,4,5 respectively, winning before you get a creature.
when I am OTD, I don’t win:
On T1, you suspend a Halberdier. On turns 3 and 4,
my creatures deal at most 4 and 8 damage respectively to you.
On T5, Halberdier enters, and then I can’t get more than 4 additional
damage through to you. That leaves you with at least 4 life.
When I am OTD, if you suspend nothing on T1 and T2 then I win in the same way as when I’m OTP.
when I am OTD, if you suspend on both T1 and T2 then:
You can’t use Fury. On turns 3 and 4, my creatures deal 4 and 8 damage respectively to you.
That leaves you with 8 life when a Halberdier enters. If you attack,
then I double-block, taking at most 4 damage and trading 1-for-1.
You would need 4 more attacks to kill me, whereas I would only need 2 more attacks to kill you.
when I am OTD, if you suspend on exactly one of T1,T2 then:
T2 TKS exiles a Halberdier, leaving you unable to use Fury. I get my other TKS
before you get your creature, and if you attack then I double-block, trading.
8. Wrath of Pie: Calciform Pools, Geier Reach Sanitarium, Chronosavant, Elspeth, Knight-Errant WW 6-0
T1 land T2 land, put counter on Pools
T3 you can’t get more than 2 mana, and getting 2 mana requires
also tapping the Sanitarium, so you still can’t use its discard ability
Thus I exile both of your threats and win.
9. PJim: Elvish Spirit Guide, Elvish Spirit Guide, Mountain,Magus of the Moon LL 0-6
T1 Magus of the Moon beats me.
10. Reeplcheep: Mishra’s Factory , Mishra’s Factory, Rishadan Port , Cathedral of War WW 6-0
Me being OTP is only better for me, so I just analyze when I’m OTD.
some useful notes for this match:
A single Factory can’t _both_ pump and attack, and if you double-attack then
Cathedral won’t pump, so you can’t ever attack with more than 4 power combined.
Cathedral doesn’t pump on defense, so any non-chump block by you requires that
you started that turn with both Factories and didn’t attack the previous turn and didn’t
use Port’s non-mana ability the turn you blocked, since otherwise you would neither
be able to double-animate + double-block nor be able to animate + double-pump .
Furthermore, since Factory pumps can’t give you better P/T than 4/4 + 2/2 or 3/3 + 3/3 ,
such a block can’t be better for you than trading with one of my creatures.
In particular, if you block beyond just
[blocking 1 of my creatures 1 time, with one or both of your Factories]
then I win, since afterwards I have a creature and you have nothing relevant.
On T1, I play Eye of Ugin. That being tapped doesn’t matter, so I get to cast a TKS on turn 2.
If you attack on your T3, then I block if and only if that would not kill my creature.
Starting on my T3, I cast my other TKS if able, and if I still have a TKS in hand then I attack if able.
Factory doesn’t have haste, so it can’t attack on T1, and
it attacking on T2 requires that you have played it on T1.
If you go Factory , Cathedral , then you won’t have mana to animate and attack on T2.
Thus you can’t get an Exalted attack on T2. Animate-and-Attack requires
tapping 2 lands, so you also can’t get a Factory-pumped attack on T2.
In particular, I take at most 2 damage during your T2.
If you usefully attack on T3 then:
With only 3 lands, you can’t double-attack on your T3.
I will have an untapped 4/4 that turn, so you must get 4 power.
Since a single Factory can’t _both_ attack and pump, the only way you
can attack with 4 power on your T3 is with Cathedral plus both Factories.
In particular, that results in you ending your T3 with me at
at least 14 life and Port in hand and your other 3 cards tapped.
During my T3, I cast my other TKS and reduce you to 16 life.
During my next 2 turns combined I would attack for 16 total damage, and you can’t deal
more than 8 damage to me before then, so you must block at least one of my T4,T5 attacks.
By the useful notes, you block only one of my creatures and
either that is chump or you didn’t attack the previous turn.
If it was a chump-block, then you can get one more attack, letting me untap
with at least 2 life, after which two 4/4s beats one thing that’s at most a 4/4.
If you didn’t attack the previous turn, then the 4 damage you take from my unblocked attacker
puts me ahead in a race, and by the useful notes, you blocking again still loses.
Thus I take no damage during your T3, and start my T3 with at least 18 life.
Since you can’t ever attack with more than 4 power combined, my T3 attack
would put me ahead in a race, so you must block no later than my T7.
Since a single Factory can’t _both_ pump and attack, once you block,
you won’t be able to counterattack for more than 3 per turn.
As a result, if you chump-block without having first counterattacked for 4 at least three times
then you lose, since a single block only slows me down one turn, you deal at most
4+4+3+3+3 = 17 damage to me before my T8, and blocking again still loses for you.
Thus you set up for a non-chump block or attack for 4 before you [block or set up].
By the notes, the former allows me to cast my other TKS, in which case I do that.
if you set up for a non-chump block on T3 then:
I don’t attack on T3, although after that I attack with everything that can.
This would kill you on my T6 even if you chump-block 1 of my creatures once,
which is before you can kill me, and you blocking more than that loses by
the notes, so you must again set up and this time make a non-chump block.
By the notes, that setup requires you not attacking on one of T4,T5,T6 ,
so you would only kill me on T9. Without further blocks, my remaining
creature would kill you on T8, and you blocking it loses by the notes.
if you set up for a non-chump block after T3 but before you attack for 4, then:
By the notes, that setup requires you not attacking the previous turn.
Since this happens after T3, it means you miss an attack. My other creature starts attacking
on my next turn, so your missed attack cancels out your block, leaving me still ahead in a race.
That forces you to block again, and then I win by the notes.
Thus you attack for 4 before you [block or set up for a non-chump block].
This requires that you either
[tap both Factories to attack and both other lands to animate them] or
[tap one Factory to attack, tap the other Factory to pump
the attacker, and tap one more land to animate the attacker].
In particular, on my next turn, you can’t use Port’s non-mana ability,
so I cast my other TKS, and you also can’t block.
I keep attacking with everything. I will be attacking with 2 creatures by the time you can block,
so with at most 1 block, you would lose on T7, whereas it would take till T8 for you to win.
Thus you block more than once, but that still loses by the notes.
Therefore I win even when I’m OTD.
11. maxx!: Elvish Spirit Guide, Elvish Spirit Guide, Mountain, Magus of the Moon LL 0-6
T1 Magus of the Moon beats me.
12. silkster: Sandstone Needle, Eldrazi Temple, Pillage, Thought-Knot Seer WL 3-3
When I am OTP, one of my TKSes exiles your TKS and wins.
When I am OTD, you Pillage me and then your TKS wins.
13. FTW: Remote Farm, Urza's Saga, Crucible of Worlds, Gideon Blackblade WL 3-3
when I am OTD:
Construct aggro gives you 3 4/4s on T5. I can’t deal
more than 12 damage to you before then, so I lose this.
when I am OTP:
T2 TKS exiles Crucible, so you can’t recur your lands. That means Urza’s Saga
doesn’t give you more than 1 token, and than token can’t get bigger than 1/1.
That token can’t attack before my T3, so as my T3 starts, I have
at least 16 life, Gideon has at most 6 loyalty, and you can have a 1/1.
All of my creatures attack each combat if able, and attack Gideon each combat if able.
If you don’t block my T3 attack, then Gideon can’t ultimate and dies to my T4 attack.
In that case, you deal at most 6 damage to me before I untap on T5, and then two 4/4s beat a 1/1.
If you do chump-block with your token, then Gideon deals at most 4 more damage to me and still dies,
either to his own ultimate or to my T4 attack, and I’m left with at least one creature against your nothing.
14. GoblinSmashmaster: Sandstone Needle, Sheltered Valley, Goblin Rabblemaster, Magus of the Moon WL 3-3
When I saw the Moon Man here, I had posted this as 0-6 because
I assumed it was it was the same as PJim's and maxx!'s decks.
However, this deck only has _T2_ Moon Man. When I am OTD, that still beats me.
when I am OTP:
T2 TKS exiles Goblin Rabblemaster and attacks each combat if able.
Its T3,…,T10 attacks would deal 32 damage, and Moon Man can only
chump-block once, so you take at least 28 damage before your T10.
Even if you play Sheltered Valley on T1, you only gain life from it on turns 2,…,9 .
That is only +8, and 20+8-28 = 0 , so you lose on T10,
which is before Moon Man would win for you.
Last edited by Phasmoid; 08-27-2021 at 05:55 AM. Reason: spotted error in my previous post
I have thought to play t1 TKS or magus and thzn i changer my monde once again.
So i went for the sloppy 2 TKS
1. Asthereal (TO): Eldrazi Temple, Eye of Ugin, Thought-Knot Seer, Thought-Knot Seer
Nice deck DD 2 pts
2. mattamort: Thought-knot seer, Dismember, Eye of ugin, Eldrazi temple
Dismember was definitively à good tech to beat magus
OTP I will eat your tks. Then you can dismember it but will have bo answer for my second TKs
OtD you will eat 1 tks and I will remove your dismember then we stare D
WD 4 pts ->6 pts
3. alphastryk: Forest, Durkwood Baloth, Durkwood Baloth, Dismember
OTD
T1 baloth 5 counters
T1 eye
T2 balot 5 counter B4
T2 Tks eat dismember
T3 3C & 4C
T3 Tks. Attack you go to 16
T4 2C &3c
T4 attack you go to 8
T5 1 C & 2C
T5 attavk you go to 0
Otp it is espère
Ww 6 pts -> 12 pts
4. Phasmoid: Eldrazi Temple, Eye of Ugin, Thought-Knot Seer, Thought-Knot Seer
Nice deck 2 pts -> 14pts
5. dte: Sungrass prairie, Sandstone needle, rith's charm, Anurid Scavenger
WL 3 pts -> 17
6. jhhdk: Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai, Crystal Vein, Crucible of worlds, Smokestack
WW 6pts -> 23 pts
7. RoosterCocoa: Mountain, Keldon Halberdier, Keldon Halberdier, Fury
I think pyrokinesis would have been better here
WD 4 pts -> 27 pts
8. Wrath of Pie: Calciform Pools, Geier Reach Sanitarium, Chronosavant, Elspeth, Knight-Errant
So slow 🙃
WW 6 pts -> 33 pts
9. PJim: Elvish Spirit Guide, Elvish Spirit Guide, Mountain,Magus of the Moon
LL very good choisi
10. Reeplcheep: Mishra’s Factory , Mishra’s Factory, Rishadan Port , Cathedral of War
WW you cannot tap eye
6 pts -> 39 pts
11. maxx!: Elvish Spirit Guide, Elvish Spirit Guide, Mountain, Magus of the Moon
LL
12. silkster: Sandstone Needle, Eldrazi Temple, Pillage, Thought-Knot Seer
WL 3 pts -> 42 pts
13. FTW: Remote Farm, Urza's Saga, Crucible of Worlds, Gideon Blackblade
WL 3 pts -> 45 pts
14. GoblinSmashmaster: Sandstone Needle, Sheltered Valley, Goblin Rabblemaster, Magus of the Moon
T1 magus was better
WL 3 pts -> 48 pts
Last edited by Serguei; 08-27-2021 at 07:35 AM.
I have somewhere between 1 and 1.5 :-) disagreements with Serguei:
When I posted this, I was looking at Serguei's "WD" against dte,
but I now notice that that full line is “WD 3 pts -> 17"
and Serguei's previous entry ends with “ -> 14pts" .
OTP alphastryk: Forest, Durkwood Baloth, Durkwood Baloth, Dismember
OTD us: Eldrazi Temple, Eye of Ugin, Thought-Knot Seer, Thought-Knot Seer
Serguei only considers alphastryk suspending on both T1 and T2, but I get
that alphastryk draws by suspending on T1 and then keeping the Forest
open to cast Dismember in response to the Thought-Knot Seer trigger.
OTP dte: Sungrass prairie, Sandstone needle, rith's charm, Anurid Scavenger
OTD us: Eldrazi Temple, Eye of Ugin, Thought-Knot Seer, Thought-Knot Seer
I had not thought of do nothing , but I believe dte beats that too.
If we don’t play a land on our T1, then dte can play as follows.
T2: Anurid Scavenger, Needle goes from 2 to 1
T3
In response to the Scavenger’s upkeep trigger, dte casts Rith’s Charm,
sending Needle and Rith’s Charm to dte’s graveyard.
If we played a land on T2, then Rith’s Charm
destroys it, else Rith’s Charm creates 3 tokens.
As the trigger resolves, dte puts Needle into dte’s library,
so dte draws and re-plays it in the same turn. Needle is at 2.
T4
For the Scavenger’s trigger, dte puts Rith’s Charm
into dte’s library, so dte draws it in the same turn.
If Rith’s Charm destroyed a land on T3, then
dte wins by making 3 tokens with Rith’s Charm.
Otherwise, dte already has 3 tokens from T3, and a land destruction
card that dte can cast, so dte wins with those tokens.
I was considering
Shivan Gorge , Dismember , Maze of Ith , red storage land
, but decided against it on the basis of the
“play the good cards, rather than building a narrow deck against them”
comment I’ve seen in this thread and a 3CB thread.
(The above deck would've given me 4 more points; 46 -> 50.)
1. Asthereal (TO): Eldrazi Temple, Eye of Ugin, Thought-Knot Seer, Thought-Knot Seer
DL
1Pts
3. alphastryk: Forest, Durkwood Baloth, Durkwood Baloth, Dismember
OTD
T1 Baloth 5 Counters
T2 Eye
T3 Baloth 4 Counter - Baloth 5 Counters -> Keeping dismember up force the draw
T4 TKS grab Dismember
T5 Baloth 3 Counter - Baloth 4 Counters
T5 20-16
T6 Baloth 2 Counter - Baloth 3 Counters
T7 20-12
T8 Baloth 1 Counter - Baloth 2 Counters
T9 20-8
T10 Baloth 0 Counter -> Dismember 16-8 - Baloth#2 1 Counters
T11 20-4
T12 Baloth#2 0 Counter, can not attack -> D
OTP
Force the draw by keeping dismember up
DD
3Pts
4. Phasmoid: Eldrazi Temple, Eye of Ugin, Thought-Knot Seer, Thought-Knot Seer
DL
4Pts
5. dte: Sungrass prairie, Sandstone needle, rith's charm, Anurid Scavenger
WL
7Pts
6. jhhdk: Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai, Crystal Vein, Crucible of worlds, Smokestack
WW
13Pts
7. RoosterCocoa: Mountain, Keldon Halberdier, Keldon Halberdier, Fury
OTP
T1 Eye
T2 Two options - Play nothing or Play Halberdier
Option #1, play Halbardier
T3 TKS -> Take Hallbardier #2, Fury can not be evoked anymore, dismember dispatches Hallbardier #1 -> W
Option #1, play Nothing
T3 TKS -> Take Fury
T4, Halberdier 4 Counter
T5 20-16
T6 Halberdier#1 3 Counter, Halberdier#2 4 Counter
T7 20-12
T8 Halberdier#1 2 Counter, Halberdier#2 3 Counter
T9 20-8
T10 Halberdier#1 1 Counter, Halberdier#2 2 Counter
T11 20-4
T12 Halberdier#1 0 Counter -> Dismember, Halberdier#2 1 Counter
T13 20-0 -> W
On the draw, you can block
WD
17Pts
8. Wrath of Pie: Calciform Pools, Geier Reach Sanitarium, Chronosavant, Elspeth, Knight-Errant
WW
23Pts
9. PJim: Elvish Spirit Guide, Elvish Spirit Guide, Mountain,Magus of the Moon
WW
29Pts
10. Reeplcheep: Mishra’s Factory , Mishra’s Factory, Rishadan Port , Cathedral of War
WW
35Pts
11. maxx!: Elvish Spirit Guide, Elvish Spirit Guide, Mountain, Magus of the Moon
WW
41Pts
12. silkster: Sandstone Needle, Eldrazi Temple, Pillage, Thought-Knot Seer
WL
44Pts
13. FTW: Remote Farm, Urza's Saga, Crucible of Worlds, Gideon Blackblade
WL
47Pts
14. GoblinSmashmaster: Sandstone Needle, Sheltered Valley, Goblin Rabblemaster, Magus of the Moon
WW
OTP Take Rabble and wins
OTD
T1 Land
T2 Land
T3 You play, I dismember
T4 I grab your other threat
53Pts
15. Serguei: Eldrazi Temple, Eye of Ugin, Thought-Knot Seer, Thought-Knot Seer
DL
54Pts
I disagree with mattamort against Reeplcheep.
mattamort: Thought-knot seer, Dismember, Eye of ugin, Eldrazi temple
Reeplcheep: Mishra’s Factory , Mishra’s Factory, Rishadan Port , Cathedral of War
I get DD for this.
mattamort doesn't win:
Reeplcheep plays Rishadan Port last, so as mattamort's T5 starts, all of
Reeplcheep's lands are untapped and neither Factory is summoning-sick.
Reeplcheep has 12 life and currently no creatures,
so to make progress mattamort would need to attack.
When mattamort does, Reeplcheep taps both other
lands to animate both Factories, and double-blocks.
If mattamort Dismembers a Factory, then in response,
Reeplcheep double-pumps the other Factory.
Regardless of whether mattamort does or doesn't Dismember a Factory,
Thought-knot Seer takes 4 damage and so dies.
That leaves mattamort with no threats.
Reeplcheep doesn't win:
A single Factory can’t _both_ pump and attack, and if
Reeplcheep double-attacks then Cathedral won’t pump, so
Reeplcheep can’t ever attack with more than 4/4 total P/T.
Thus mattamort untaps on mattamort's T3 with at least 12 life,
and then Thought-Knot Seer holds off one Factory while Dismember
holds off another Factory, leaving mattamort with at least 8 life.
I see another disagreement.
OTP mattamort: Thought-knot seer, Dismember, Eye of ugin, Eldrazi temple
OTD RoosterCocoa: Mountain, Keldon Halberdier, Keldon Halberdier, Fury
Here I agree with mattamort.
if RoosterCocoa suspends on T1 then:
T2 Thought-Knot Seer exiles the other Halberdier, stranding Fury.
The suspended Halberdier enters on T5, well after mattamort untaps on T3,
so that Halberdier gets Dismembered and then Thought-Knot Seer wins.
if RoosterCocoa does not suspend on T1 then:
T2 Thought-Knot Seer exiles Fury.
RoosterCocoa suspends on T2 and T3, so the Halberdiers enter on T6 and T7.
The T6 Halberdier gets Dismembered, so Thought-Knot Seer
gets unblocked attacks on turns 3,4,5,6,7 .
Those attacks deal 20 damage total and thus win.
I don't have time for further analysis right now, but:
Reeplcheep can double-animate and pump once or twice, getting a
combined P/T of 5/5 or 6/6, which _is_ enough to trade 1-for-1 with
a Halberdier when blocking, so I suspect you don't win even OTP.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Reply With Quote