You won't ever agree on this one. It came up in the Dreadnought thread too.Originally Posted by morgan_coke
4dogs also thinks Dress Down + Endurance/Fury is a combo spending 3 cards for draw 1+ 2-mana 3/x without the trigger. It's card disadvantage. But 4dogs thinks it's worth it to cheat out the pitch Elementals without the ETB trigger, just for the fast body. It will attack for 3 and win.
4dogs values the body over the ETB ability. It's still a Turn 1 3/2 Menace even with Bauble, just with 1 less Thoughtseize trigger.
Losing the Thoughtseize trigger makes it card disadvantage and more likely for opponent to have or find 1-mana removal. But you still get the fast 3/2. It's a disagreement over which is the better half of the elementals: the ability or the body.
Let's talk about this instead.
Copy a dead Dark Depth is obvious.
Copying a dead Omniscience could be a line if your hand has Emrakul or something.
As long as you're not looking to tap whatever Shifting Woodland becomes, you only need 1 other green mana source.
Just because you keep repeating the same garbage won't make it right.
Not 2-0.
Not down cards.
Not a lesser target.
Not just a thought seize.
You want to talk about disadvantage, you're arguments are oh-for-four against reality.
Have you just never played against UB scam? it's ok if you haven't. It was more of a modern thing until recently.
Speaking of dreadnought...
Let's talk about this instead.
Copy a dead Dark Depth is obvious.
Copying a dead Omniscience could be a line if your hand has Emrakul or something.
As long as you're not looking to tap whatever Shifting Woodland becomes, you only need 1 other green mana source.
The Bant lists could support 1 copy to copy Uro/Dreadnought & attack. But it needs 5 lands in play and risks ETB tapped, so more than 1 copy seems bad.
The initial play i.e. getting your pitched Grief countered, is a 0-2. You then follow that up with a Reanimate on a Grief, which is a 2-1. You end up down cards because you spent 4 cards to get a Thoughtseize and a 3/2 i.e. basic math.
I'm not saying its a useless play or that Bauble invalidates the Scam deck. I'm saying Bauble can and will be boarded in against Scam and it moves the interaction from completely back breaking to something about even. It also invalidates alternative casting cost of other cards they may play such as Daze, Unmask, Force of Will, Snuff Out, Surgical. In short, a strong card.
Ultimately, I still don't think it will be very common for people to pitch into Bauble just to Reanimate. Dumping half your hand to take 1 card and get an easily removable body does not seem like a winning line most of the time. But hey, maybe I'm wrong and you can ride that 3/2 all the way home. As FTW said, agree to disagree.
Do these start making an Energy package worth exploring?
4. It doesn't need to tap
Amped Raptor looks like a good way to cast the 0c Suspend cards without using cascade.
Harder to do with Raptor because you can't do the deck building mana cost cheat cascade can do. But if you have a T1 energy producer like the new Burn spell you can cheat in a 3/4 mana spell on T2. Dunno if that makes it worth playing semi-subpar cards for that interaction.
I mean, yeah copying a dead Dreadnought is fine if you have 4 lands plus this.
I was thinking more some number of more direct "I win the game" type of permanents that don't involve the target permanent attacking directly.
Tap this for green, tap a Tropical Island and Ancient Tomb, Shifting Woodlands becomes a tapped copy of Omniscience, play Emrakul from hand.
In the right deck that can gain enough life, this card can nuke instantly with its PW side. Question is what would be the best shell for it.
Maindeckable GY hate isn't too shabby and has somewhat of a Sneak Attack angle with Agatha's Soul Cauldron. Aside from that, it can get really silly with cards that use the +1/+1 counters as a resource. E.g. if you exile Walking Ballista with Cauldron, you can shoot any counters on Emperor, reload two counters for 1B, shoot them again, reload for 1B, etc.
Given how all these cards are cheap and good on their own, I would keep my eye on that.
Edit #2: Apparently the fancy combo with Phyrexian Devourer and Soul Cauldron doesn't work due to rule 607, linked abilties. So no army summoned from the library.
Last edited by Barook; 05-23-2024 at 09:27 PM.
Just copy Saga. It's a better 1x than Stage for this purpose, with less timing restrictions; no need for Saga + copy land to be in play simultaneously.
It does open up new lines for UG OmniTell. If they don't have Show and Tell, they can still put Omniscience *uncounterably* into play with:
SurveilDual -> mill Omni
2GG: make tapped Omni copy
That only needs Sol Land + UG dual + Woodland in play to go off, without casting spells. (Well cantrips to set up the top, but nobody is Forcing Ponder)
Seems good?
Until of end of turn, so if you want that Dreadnought to attack then you need 5 lands.
This is a lot of setup and like most of the other ideas I’ve seen for the card, I’m wondering what incentive people have to jump through those hoops when there’s a much easier way to slot it into an existing deck where it can cheaply and recurringly just make 20/20 flying indestructibles
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
For Dreadnought it's a lot of hoops.
For UG OmniTell it's a land they can easily play as a 1-of or 2-of that makes uncounterable Omniscience without needing to find or resolve Show and Tell. That seems big for a land slot.
To make a Dark Depths copy with 0 counters it's a decent but slow backup plan. Lands can easily run it but may struggle to get Delirium. GW Depths might? You could Crop Rot/Reclaimer/Knight your Depths into this in response to Wasteland
For Delirium, I'm assuming Life from the Loam is involved, and you'd end up with Uza's Saga (Enchantment Land), Life from the Loam (Sorcery) and either an Instant like Crop Rotation, any Artifact, maybe even Dryad Arbor as a creature. I'm not advocating it as a hard plan A, but I would not sleep on it, people will get got by this card
Though thinking about it if you want a hard plan A, if your opening hand is Shifting Woodlands, Lion's Eye Diamond, Dark Depths, either Elvish Spirit Guide or Louts Petal, and among the other 3 cards you had 2 other types, like Creature Instant Sorcery or Enchantment, you'd be able to make Marit Lage on turn 1. This is currently possible with Dark Ritual and Vampire Hexmage, but is transparent and would not survive a Force check. This would require at minimum casting one spell (Lion's Eye Diamond) and if they don't counter that, you can play Shifting Woodlands as land for turn, pitch ESG, sac LED and the 20/20 is in play.
Last edited by PirateKing; 05-24-2024 at 08:57 AM.
Sorin is an incredible finisher for Life.dec, and he can be put in play with Vial on the turn they go off. I mean, gaining the infinite life was never that decks problem, killing the opponent easily and quickly was. Sorin very neatly solves that, far better than any other options we've seen, and as a 2 mana, 1 power creature he fits in with everything else the deck is doing already.
In the right deck that can gain enough life, this card can nuke instantly with its PW side. Question is what would be the best shell for it.
Maindeckable GY hate isn't too shabby and has somewhat of a Sneak Attack angle with Agatha's Soul Cauldron. Aside from that, it can get really silly with cards that use the +1/+1 counters as a resource. E.g. if you exile Walking Ballista with Cauldron, you can shoot any counters on Emperor, reload two counters for 1B, shoot them again, reload for 1B, etc.
Given how all these cards are cheap and good on their own, I would keep my eye on that.
Edit #2: Apparently the fancy combo with Phyrexian Devourer and Soul Cauldron doesn't work due to rule 607, linked abilities. So no army summoned from the library.
There's dopey stuff like Ad Nauseam -> Children of Korlis plus Sorin of House Markov, but that's clearly win-more at best. It's hard to come up with a scenario where a deck wouldn't just win the game instead of gaining massive life. I think the closest thing to a legacy deck with a life gain game plan is Soul Sisters in modern.
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