Leyline Beans

[FTW]

Even Jarvis Yu is now on Leyline stompy
https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=52898&d=592842&f=LE
https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=52903&d=592873&f=LE

Leyline of the Guildpact + Scion of Draco Beans control is making results.


//Lands: 18
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
1 Scrubland
1 Hedge Maze
1 Ketria Triome
1 Island
1 Plains

//Enchantments: 12
4 Leyline of the Guildpact
4 Up the Beanstalk
4 Leyline Binding

//Spells: 19
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Force of Negation
2 Lórien Revealed

//Creatures: 11
4 Scion of Draco
3 Triumph of Saint Katherine
3 Solitude
1 Murktide Regent

//Sideboard: 15
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Force of Vigor
2 Hydroblast
2 Containment Priest
2 Doorkeeper Thrull
2 Kozilek's Return
1 Endurance
1 Force of Negation
1 Grafdigger's Cage


A whopping 21 cards trigger Beans. 19 are castable on 2 lands!

I created a new thread because although this is UWx-based (Force, Brainstorm, Ponder, StP, 8 blue fetch, Tundra), this is now quite distinct from UWx Miracles and even from 4c Beans.

Edit: Broadside Bombardiers seems good with 12 cmc Draco and 5 cmc Solitude/Saint Katherine. Maybe there's a different build that can exploit that.

[morgan_coke]

I like a combo/control version with Scapeshift better.

4x Leyline Guild
4x Beanstalk
4x Leyline Bind

4x Scapeshift

4x Draco
3x Grief
4x Bloodghast

4x Cabal Therapy
3x Thoughtseize

4x Careful Study
4x Faithless Looting

2x Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
1x Emeria, the Sky Ruin
15x other lands

Basically you trade off counters for heavy discard and a combo finish while still pressuring with beaters, and you have the long game finish of emeria recursion or valakut facebolts. Doesn't draw as much off of beanstalk, but also doesn't need to with a faster gameplan. Maybe it should have bowmaster too.

[FTW]

If you want to combo with Scapeshift, it could still be protected by blue counters. Force has more synergy than Grief when you have Beans and no Reanimates.

Bloodghast is pretty bad these days, and especially not a reason to justify 8x Careful Study (card disadvantage, and don't see a reason to need discard outlets other than Ghast).

Why not do something like this?


//Enchantments: 12
4 Leyline of the Guildpact
4 Up the Beanstalk
4 Leyline Binding

//Spells: 18
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Scapeshift
2 Lorien Revealed
2 Terminus

//Creatures: 10
4 Scion of Draco
3 Solitude
2 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
1 Triumph of Saint Katherine

//Lands: 20
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
18 other lands


Still 20 cards that trigger Beans.

Something like this can Scapeshift combo but also has a better chance at ramping to lethal Scapeshift lands (6?), making use of sacrificed lands outside the combo (Uro), or winning without Scapeshift.

[morgan_coke]

Something like this can Scapeshift combo but also has a better chance at ramping to lethal Scapeshift lands (6?), making use of sacrificed lands outside the combo (Uro), or winning without Scapeshift.

Leyline or Prismatic Omen takes the number of lands for a lethal scapeshift down to 6. Really shocked none of the lists are running 2 valakuts and an emeria ruins just on their own given what a powerhouse they are with leyline. 4 lands + valakut + fetchland = 2 colorless bolts that aren't spells.

Way back in the day I ran a deck with studies/lootings, prismatic omens, rootwalls, bloodghasts and therapy/thoughtseize + firemane angel and emeria ruins and scapeshift combo - called it "ACC" for aggro combo control since it could play all three strategies on offense - defense was limited to land bolts and discard tho.

[FTW]

Remember Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle and Emeria, the Sky Ruin are textless monocolor tapped lands if you never reach 6-7 lands. They require surviving to the lategame.

6 lands is not easy to hit in Legacy in an 18-land deck with 0 Brainstorm, 0 Ponder, and almost all nonbasics (loses land count to Wasteland). 8x Careful Study makes that worse (leads to discarding lands to keep business). Most midrange & control decks run at least 20 lands + Brainstorm + Ponder to have a chance at hitting high land counts. Adding more lands, Brainstorm, Ponder, and Uro would help hit 6 lands.

So why aren't most builds on Valakut and Emeria? The 18-land lists don't have space. They won't reliably hit 6 lands (and don't care if they do, since everything is castable on 2 mana). Valakut and Emeria are also 1-color tapped nonbasics with 0 land types. This is a 5c deck that needs to be able to hit domain without Leyline and not scoop to Wasteland/etc. In 18 lands there's only space for nonbasics with 2-3 types or basics. Cutting those for Valakuts would hurt the Domain mechanic and mana stability.

This build only has 19 lands, same problem: https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=53067&d=594086&f=LE

Imho you need minimum 20 lands to add Valakut. It takes the spot of a spell, not a land. If it replaces other lands, it hurts the domain mechanic and mana stability.

Way back in the day I ran a deck with studies/lootings, prismatic omens, rootwalls, bloodghasts and therapy/thoughtseize + firemane angel and emeria ruins and scapeshift combo - called it "ACC" for aggro combo control since it could play all three strategies on offense - defense was limited to land bolts and discard tho.

Way back in the day Bloodghast + Therapy was a more viable strategy, but the format has power creeped. Discarding Firemane Angel used to be a viable way to stay alive till the late game, but that was a long time ago.

If your only interaction is 10x discard + 4 Leyline Binding (with 3 nonbasics with 0 types), you're going to find yourself running out of interaction before the game progresses to the 6 lands stage. Then stuff like Scapeshift, Valakut, Emeria become textless dead cards because the game only reaches 2 phases: a) low land count b) opponent kills you.

Legacy is faster and more interactive now. In order to progress past the low land count phase, you need things like stable mana, enough interaction, and enough card advantage. With enough tools to survive to the 6-land lategame phase, then cards like Scapeshift and Valakut gain text. Before that they're dead cards. So that's something to consider when designing a build. Even if you prefer black discard to blue counters, it's essential to have enough card advantage and interaction to survive to 6 lands.

[Hanni]

Didn't realize there was a thread for this before I posted my list. I'm not going to delete my thread, but I'll post my list here cause it's kind of similar...

Lands (16)
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Flooded Strand
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
1 Savannah
1 Xander's Lounge
1 Indatha Triome

Creatures (16)
4 Chrome Host Seedshark
4 Broadside Bombardiers
4 Solitude
4 Scion of Draco

Spells (28)
4 Brainstorm
4 Lorien Revealed
4 Force of Will
4 Up the Beanstalk
4 Leyline Binding
4 Leyline of the Guildpact
4 Chrome Mox

My list is more of a hybrid between a Stompy deck and 5c midrange control, with Ancient Tomb and Chrome Mox alongside Chrome Host Seedshark and Goblin Bombardiers.

The most broken start consists of Leyline of the Guildpact enabling turn 1 Scion off of Ancient Tomb or Chrome Mox into turn 2 Bombardiers, lethal you for 20. It still has the ability to grind with Lorien Revealed and Up the Beanstalk, which are both supported well.

[FTW]

Nice deck. Chrome Host Seed Shark and Broadside Bombardiers are fun ways to take advantage of all the high CMC spells with Beans.

Chrome Mox seems unnecessary. Your curve tops off at 3. Mox is great when you start with exactly Tomb + Mox + 3CMC creature + same-colored card to exile, but the chance of that combo is less than the chance of drawing pieces at the wrong time or putting the wrong color on Mox. The rest of the time Mox acceleration is not needed and doesn't synergize with the deck engines. Your spells already come down cheap.

Maybe instead +2 land +2 Triumph of Saint Katherine?

[Hanni]

Nice deck. Chrome Host Seed Shark and Broadside Bombardiers are fun ways to take advantage of all the high CMC spells with Beans.

Chrome Mox seems unnecessary. Your curve tops off at 3. Mox is great when you start with exactly Tomb + Mox + 3CMC creature, but the chance of that combo is less than the chance of drawing pieces at the wrong time or putting the wrong color on Mox. The rest of the time Mox acceleration is not needed. Your spells come down cheap. And Mox has no synergy with the deck engines.

Maybe instead +2 land +2 Triumph of Saint Katherine?

The point of Chrome Mox is to increase the consistency of the turn 2 kill. It's not about Tomb + Mox, it's about Tomb -OR- Mox. Obviously if you have both, you can cast a turn 1 Bombardiers or Seedshark, but that's not the point.

The curve tops out at 5, actually, with hardcasts on Solitude, Lorien, and even Force of Will. Mox helps accelerate the deck into other plays too, like turn 1 Beans. Leyline of the Guildpact past the opening hand is not the best, and is easy to pitch, making Chrome Mox make all colors. The deck easily negates the card disadvantage with Lorien and Beans.

Ancient Tomb can tap for any color with a Leyline out too, which is pretty cool.

The acceleration the Stompy elements add (Tomb + Mox) definitely power up the deck in a great way. Don't knock it till you try it. The turn 2 kill happens more often than you'd think, and the Hexproof from Scion makes it hard to beat.

16 lands is pretty reasonable with 4 Lorien and 4 Chrome Mox essentially being 24 total mana sources, with Lorien being a draw 3 after you have enough mana. Brainstorm helps fix flood/screw too.

EDIT: To elaborate more on Chrome Mox, the deck is plenty happy having extra mana. Drawing tons of cards with Lorien and Beans means casting multiple cards a turn if you have the mana, and the tokens from Chrome Host are also a mana sink, costing 2 mana per to turn into a creature. The extra mana isn't wasted just because the deck isn't running bigger top end with Initiative creatures or whatnot. Also, if you only have 4 colors (and no Leyline), Scion does cost 4, so there's that too.

As far as Mox not making the correct color when it has to pitch something other than a Leyline... most of the colored costs are single color in a deck designed to make all of the colors with duals and Tri-lands, so it's less clunky in practice than it is on paper.

[FTW]

The point of Chrome Mox is to increase the consistency of the turn 2 kill. It's not about Tomb + Mox, it's about Tomb -OR- Mox. Obviously if you have both, you can cast a turn 1 Bombardiers or Seedshark, but that's not the point.

Turn 2 kill needs exactly: Leyline of the Guildpact + Scion of Draco + Bombardiers + (Tomb + Mox OR Tomb + Land OR Mox + 2 lands)

That's rare. Mana is not the limiting factor, but having the perfect hand. Adding Mox doesn't really solve the consistency problem.

It's a personal choice. Would you rather build to have 2% god hands instead of 1% god hands, or build to run smoothly most games? Some players do just want the 2 % god hands for FNM memes, and there's nothing wrong with that. If so, Mox does help.

The curve tops out at 5, actually, with hardcasts on Solitude, Lorien, and even Force of Will.

I meant the deck normally functions on 2-3 lands. It doesn't NEED more.

In those lategame value cases, land is better. Land is 1-card for 1-mana. Mox is 2-cards for 1-mana. Land is more likely to cast those to grind value. Mox constrains resources more, making it harder to hit 5 mana or have value left to cast.

Chrome Mox is generally bad in multicolor and better early than late. Leyline is the best card to imprint, but on turn 1 you'd always rather play Leyline + Land than imprint Leyline on Mox. They clash. The Mox + Leyline interaction only works for late game topdecking, at the stage where you don't want to draw either card. It does convert 2 bad draws into 1 mana. But why even have 2 bad topdecks that need to find each other? You could draw land instead and pitch Leyline to Force/Solitude.

Land is also better than Mox for casting Leyline Binding or Draco.

Replacing lands with Mox (12 colored lands), without Leyline you'll notice you get color-screwed worse by strategic Wasteland. They can Waste you off 2-3 other colors that Mox doesn't have.

I'm sure it works sometimes. But have you seen how smoothly the 5c deck already runs without Mox?

Edit: Basically Scion of Draco and Leyline Binding are "lands matter" Domain cards. Mana sources without basic land types go against the deck's own engine. Successful 5c builds focused on mana sources with basic land types so they still function without Leyline of the Guildpact. With Tomb you're already losing some, so adding Mox too seems the wrong direction.

[Hanni]

Turn 2 kill needs exactly: Leyline of the Guildpact + Scion of Draco + Bombardiers + (Tomb + Mox OR Tomb + Land OR Mox + 2 lands)

That's rare. Mana is not the limiting factor, but having the perfect hand. Adding Mox doesn't really solve the consistency problem.

It's a personal choice. Would you rather build to have 2% god hands instead of 1% god hands, or build to run smoothly most games? Some players do just want the 2 % god hands for FNM memes, and there's nothing wrong with that. If so, Mox does help.




In those lategame value cases, land is better. Land is 1-card for 1-mana. Mox is 2-cards for 1-mana. Land is more likely to cast those to grind value. Mox constrains resources more, making it harder to hit 5 mana or have value left to cast.

Chrome Mox is generally bad in multicolor and better early than late. Leyline is the best card to imprint, but on turn 1 you'd always rather play Leyline + Land than imprint Leyline on Mox. They clash. The Mox + Leyline interaction only works for late game topdecking, at the stage where you don't want to draw either card. It does convert 2 bad draws into 1 mana. But why even have 2 bad topdecks that need to find each other? You could draw land instead and pitch Leyline to Force/Solitude.

Land is also better than Mox for casting Leyline Binding or Draco.

Replacing lands with Mox (12 colored lands), without Leyline you'll notice you get color-screwed worse by strategic Wasteland. They can Waste you off 2-3 other colors that Mox doesn't have.

I'm sure it works sometimes. But have you seen how smoothly the 5c deck already runs without Mox?

Mana is definitely a limiting factor in the beginning turns of any game. Even if that extra mana is simply to play a card around Daze. There's a reason why Stompy decks are successful, and having mana acceleration into powerful plays during the first few turns of the game is why. I understand that midrange control decks don't need acceleration because of the free/cheap answer cards they run, but a hybrid deck with both has advantages. The downsides of the card disadvantage are easily mitigated in a deck that has the ability to draw so many cards.

The fast kills are definitely a defining part of playing this list. Most Beans decks are durdle machines that might kill on turn 6-8? Certainly Scion and even Saint Katherine help give Beans a faster clock, but the ability to kill faster because of the acceleration and faster threats like Bombardiers turn my list into a different archetype almost. Having aggro/combo in a midrange control deck is a different dynamic. Look at how successful Goblins became after Sticker Goblin for a similar reason.

Maybe the turn 2's aren't extremely consistent, but that doesn't mean Chrome Mox speeding up the deck doesn't make it more threatening overall. Why do I care about the lategame? Against other Beans decks? I'm going to outgrind most every thing else even with Chrome Mox due to the absurd card advantage of the engine regardless, and against other Beans decks... Hexproof with Scion and the explosiveness of Bombardiers should not be underestimated.

We can talk in circles all day. I posted a random decklist. You've not seen it in action nor tested it. You can choose to believe what you believe, I'm not really worried about it. I simply wanted to post my list because I thought it was an exciting brew that was incredibly unique. I would not cut Ancient Tomb or Chrome Mox because I believe they make the deck very dangerous due to how explosive the deck can be, with any card disadvantage being easily negated by the extremely powerful draw engine.

[FTW]

We can talk in circles all day. I posted a random decklist. You've not seen it in action nor tested it. You can choose to believe what you believe, I'm not really worried about it. I simply wanted to post my list because I thought it was an exciting brew that was incredibly unique. I would not cut Ancient Tomb or Chrome Mox because I believe they make the deck very dangerous due to how explosive the deck can be, with any card disadvantage being easily negated by the extremely powerful draw engine.

It was just a suggestion. I also said feel free to play Mox if you prefer the explosive lines and the turn 2 combo. Sometimes it's just a player preference between high variance explosiveness vs slower consistency.

I've played the regular 5c midrange version a lot, so I was speaking from that. When playing Scion of Draco & Leyline Binding, they attack your mana to keep you off Domain. That problem is exacerbated by cutting basics & basic-land typed lands for Stompy mana, so it's a vulnerability to watch out for. The card disadvantage adds up quickly (Beans doesn't always stick). Maybe you hope to power out threats under Wasteland and ignore it. I'm sure your Stompy version has some explosive merits. Have you tried the grindier midrange version? Everything's castable on 2-3 lands. The deck's faster than it looks and wins a lot of games.

Edit: Turn 1 fetch basic Island + Leyline of the Guildpact makes a 5-color land that survives Blood Moon & B2B & Wasteland, a powerful trick in the midrange version. The 1 basic Island is better than it looks.

[Hanni]

Wasteland is a problem for most Stompy decks when the draws are bad or the opponents draws line up well. Usually though, you can deploy threats before those decks are in a position to Wasteland. If you deploy a turn 1 threat, it's really bad for them to Wasteland without dealing with that threat and/or having a threat themselves. This still holds up on turns 2 and 3 depending on the gamestate. Wastelanding from behind is usually a bad idea.

With that being said, Chrome Mox helps against Wasteland by being an accelerated mana source. Against a Delver deck, Chrome Mox makes you better vs Wasteland, not worse, nor less consistent. You give up a business spell that you probably weren't casting for a turn or two in order to keep up with their tempo. Not having any basic lands is not irrelevant, but I think Chrome Mox overall is an improvement vs Wasteland by helping get ahead on mana.

Even without Beans, the deck still does pretty well with cards vs most other Stompy decks. Where other Stompy decks might have Fable of the Mirror Breaker and The One Ring, having Brainstorm, Lorien, and Beans feels pretty good.

Compared to other Beans decks, sure, there's some loss with Chrome Mox, but deploying threats faster has plenty of upside.

I don't think the standard slower lists of Beans are bad at all. They regularly do well. The lists moving towards faster clocks with Scion and Katherine also do well. You can play many different decks in Legacy and do well if you know what you're doing and are prepared for the meta. I don't think the list you posted in here is bad at all. Any Bant deck with Legacy viable cards is going to do well because it's just an overall strong color combination for any midrange control deck.

I was simply presenting an interesting take on a somewhat established archetype. I'm not trying to say that it is a better deck than what already exists, but it is a completely viable alternative that offers gameplay patterns that can dramatically improve otherwise difficult matchups with explosive lines that win multiple turns faster than your average Beans deck.

EDIT: In my thread for the deck, I actually mention running a basic Island in the sideboard for the Moon Stompy matchup and matchups with recurring Wasteland (like Lands). I don't think the % of those matchups in the metagame warrant basic Island in the maindeck for my list, though.