[Deck] CounterSliver 2.0 (MeatHooks.dec)

[sammiel]

Well, they haven't read the primer on the first page because there isn't a primer on the first page right now. Because of all the rapid changes we were making to the deck, it was hard to update an entire primer. So I took it off (don't worry, I saved it) and just posted the most updated decklists.

And the thread is 46 fucking pages long. Of course people aren't going to read it all, especially when roughly half of it is people being stupid or you flaming people for being stupid.

Now that we've largely settled on a list, perhaps we should start writing one again.

I think what the deck is missing right now is results. I believe it's a solid and refined list with the capability of earning its place in the legacy metagame, now you need to go out and prove it.

[Tosh]

I think what the deck is missing right now is results. I believe it's a solid and refined list with the capability of earning its place in the legacy metagame, now you need to go out and prove it.

#1: Mav and Pinder are taking it to GP Columbus
#2: [sarcasm]Good thing there are lots of creditable (read: non-local) Legacy Tournaments on the West Coast.[/sarcasm] The only people that are playing MH right now live on the West Coast...

[Pinder]

#1: Mav and Pinder are taking it to GP Columbus

So is Volt.

[georgjorge]

Second Sunrise is definitely NOT better as it allows your opponent to get his Deed / Explosives back as well. A simple counterspell is probably better for preventing mass destruction (unless Deed / Explosives is already on the table), but might be worse in creature combat (replacing your Slivers with 2/2s is not so good, but still better than having no replacement at all but a Counterspell in hand).

Anyway, telling people you don't know anything about to commit suicide on an internet forum is a sure sign for being a bit of an asshole, so I'm out of here.

[kicks_422]

A simple counterspell is probably better for preventing mass destruction (unless Deed / Explosives is already on the table)

Funny, I just finished a game where Stifling an EE activation won me the game...

I think this deck has what it takes to win a huge event such as GP Colombus. Godd luck to everyone taking it there...

[Maverick676]

No one is debating the usefullness of stifle.

All I was saying is that Counterspell > Caller of the Claw.

[Patoon]

I am taking the list to a smallish tournament in Sydney, Australia this weekend i am still undecided upon daze vs. stifle, it will be a metagame decision probably made while i write the list down on the day.

So i will let you all know how things go.

[Pinder]

Awesome. Let us know how it goes.

[Patoon]

So just so you guys know what i am taking here is the list that i am going to run. Some things are the way they are cos i dont quite own all the cards, but it is pretty much how i would have it anyway.

Creatures
4 x Crystalline Sliver
4 x Muscle Sliver
4 x Sinew Sliver
4 x Plated Sliver
3 x Winged Sliver

Spells
4 x Brainstorm
4 x Serum Visions
3 x Daze
4 x Counterspell
4 x Force of Will
4 x Swords to Plowshares

Land
3 x Tundra
3 x Tropical Island
4 x Flooded Strand
2 x Windswept Heath
2 x Polluted Delta
2 x Island
1 x Plains
1 x Forest

Sideboard
3 x Harmonic Sliver
1 x Naturalize
2 x Talon Sliver
2 x Worship
3 x Tomod's Crypt
4 x Meddling Mage

I have been very happy with this list through testing, as we all know it pretty much pwns anything aggro, and stands a good chance against combo, esp game two. The meta game i expect is a quite varied one. The decks that regularly win legacy in Sydney are 1. Goblins, 2. Threshold (Lol no suprizes there) But the field is what you have to worry about, cos aside from the 5 ppl who know and are good at legacy, there are a lot of ppl who will bring random and someone randomly strong stuff.

So anyway give me your comments / feedback, and any last pointers you might have lying around, and come Saturday we can see if all the hardwork has paid off at least just a little bit.

[xsockmonkeyx]

So anyway give me your comments / feedback, and any last pointers you might have lying around, and come Saturday we can see if all the hardwork has paid off at least just a little bit.

Last minute tweak: -1 Counterspell, -1 Serum Visions +2 Stifle. You might want to try it out first to see if it suits you. I also might try 2 in the board if you expect a field full of goblins and combo. The board looks pretty decent. The 1x Naturalize kind of stands out though. What is your reason for playing it instead of another Harmonic Sliver?

[Volt]

What SockMonkey said. Also: -1 Forest +1 Tundra. Basic Forest is just awful. Good luck, Patoon!

[Pinder]

What SockMonkey said. Also: -1 Forest +1 Tundra. Basic Forest is just awful. Good luck, Patoon!

I'm assuming that's because he doesn't own a 4th Tundra. But instead of a basic forest, you could probably go the 2 Plains, 2 Island route and be safe. I don't really care about a basic forest either way, but for some reason Volt absolutely loathes it.

But the list you posted is only a few cards off from ours as it currently stands, so you should do well. If you can get them, though, 2 Stifle main and 1-2 board is how we've been running it recently (I just haven't updated the list in while).

Also, if you can't get Stifles, I would run 4x Daze and 3x Counterspell instead of the other way around. Daze is infinitely more useful in the early game, so you want as many as possible to see them as much as possible in the early game.

And Talons in the board vs. a field largely made up of Goblins? You're mean .

[Kirika]

Well this is the build i running now. Currently playing in the SCG games online Legacy tourney. I normally play fish but I figured I'd give this a shot. Lost to landstill round 1 and round 2 had a draw cause time zone difference and round 3 beat goblins. Been finding not liking not having card draw though.

I might be going to GP Columbus. If I do i probably will play Fish though. more experience with it and I feel better about having more draw power and better control and combo matches although slivers is absolutely awesome against Goblins.

Blue (20)
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Serum Visions
3 Stifle
2 Winged Sliver

Gold (6)
4 Crystalline Sliver
1 Eladamri's Call
1 Harmonic Sliver

Green (3)
3 Muscle Sliver

White (14)
4 Plated Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Worship

Land (18)
4 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
2 Island
1 Plains
4 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
3 Windswept Heath

Sideboard
3 Compost (suicide black/monoblack control)
2 Harmonic Sliver (anti enchantment/artifact)
2 Loaming Shaman (threshold, ichorid)
4 Meddling Mage (combo)
2 Serenity (affinity/enchantress)
2 Vendalken Shackles (creature heavy decks)

I been thinking is loaming Shaman that much better then Crypt board? Loaming Shaman has legs and is a 3/2 but it costs 2G so is easier to counter since since counterspell will be online by the time it comes out but Crypt can get needled or Stifled but Shaman can get stifled too. Crypt does cost 0 and you can just stick it out there first turn though

Been thinking Survival solves the no draw problem of Slivers although it is weak to needle and loses some cards to fit in survival and all.

Blue (18)
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
3 Serum Visions
3 Stifle
4 Force of Will
1 Wonder

Gold (5)
4 Crystalline Sliver

Green (10)
1 Gemhide Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Survival of the Fittest
1 Uktabi Orangutan

Red (1)
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob

White (11)
4 Plated Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
3 Swords to Plowshares

Lands (18)
4 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Savannah
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
4 Windswept Heath

No room for Daze unfortunately and this deck wants mana in play to use survival so no Daze.

Wonder instead of winged cause less likely that they crypt me then winged sliver goes farming.

Orangutan to kill artifacts instead of harmonic cause I don't want to kill off my own survival with it.

Only 3 STP cause between having huge slivers and stifle to stop goblin abilities something had to get cut somewhere.

Sideboard is probably almost the same but Kataki instead of Serenity cause blowing up my survival is bad and probably want to put in Genesis against mass removal sideboard.

Might actually play this build at GP Columbus if I can get adequate testing in. otherwise i'm going with Fish.

Caller of the Claw sounds like a cute Solution to mass removal I used that in my elf deck to combat mass removal. I think the Survival Engine might be a better solution though. You can just pull more slivers using squee survival and you can have genesis if you want it.

[Patoon]

I dont expect any combo really, i dont know why but nobody really plays i here. (Well in legacy anyway) I dont think many people have a set of Resets :) But an appearance of black based combo could happen.

In terms of goblins there will be like a definite 5 goblins decks and they almost all will be in the top tables.

The reason for the 3 tundra is as Pinder said, i only own 3 in regards to the forest, i cant say that i have found it a problem. I think it helps guarantee the harmonics. No to mention the goblins matchup.

I will change the 3 Daze to 4 and drop the counterspells to 3, i was actually considering this myself.

I personally really dont like stifle that much, i dont want to open that can of fish so that is all i will say about it. (I might try and work some into the board)

Naturalize OUT Stifle IN :) Just need room for another...

[xsockmonkeyx]

How important do you anticipate Worship to be? In my experience its only been useful against burn and other slow combo. You could probably get away with cutting them unless you expect direct damage; you pretty much own the board.

In terms of goblins there will be like a definite 5 goblins decks and they almost all will be in the top tables.

If this is the case I anticipate you will have a pretty good day at the office.

[Patoon]

Burn is something i do expect, and i find worship randomly good aganst random stuff.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Daze>Burn. Definitely go up to 4.

EDIT: also if you expect scrubby players, Daze>Scrub

[Patoon]

Daze>Scrub

Actual LOL at work

it says it all really

[Hanni]

So after much theorizing and a bit of playtesting, I decided that it's too difficult to fit in Survival for what it's worth. Before Sinew was printed, Survival was exactly what the deck needed IMO. Now that Sinew is printed, it just isn't as necessary. The matchups it mainly helped were randomness and board control, since it's not so good against Goblins because it's slower than just playing guys and the deck just doesn't need it vs them. The same applies to combo. The best matchup for it is Threshold, where their maindeck Needle's simply neuter the plan. Against board control it's pretty good but it's just too hard to squeeze in for that.

I'm still an avid supporter of the 4c build. You cannot count on seeing Crystalline Sliver everygame with 4 (or at least when you need it), even with cantrip. Hibernation Sliver gives you 2 additional resiliency guys. They are less effective than Crystalline... thus why 4 Crystalline 2 Hibernation. It's still increasing the consistency of the decks main engine components: resiliency and pump. Protection vs untargeted and mass removal is just a bonus, as well as the subpar stack damage tricks. Especially without Survival, I like them. Running 2 black spells as the only black spells (that also pitch to FoW) doesn't really seem like a big deal.

This is what I've decided on for now:

UWgb 4c Counter Slivers

Lands (18)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Island
1 Plains

Creatures (21)
4 Plated Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
2 Hibernation Sliver
3 Winged Sliver

Spells (21)
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
2 Counterspell
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares

Sideboard (15)
2 Harmonic Sliver
3 Talon Sliver
3 Stifle
4 Meddling Mage
3 Winter Orb

The maindeck is the exact same as I've been running. I think it's perfect. In the sideboard, I dropped the Hibernation Slivers for Winter Orb's. Instead of trying to battle board control with Hibernations, I think simply running anti board control cards is better. Armageddon is another option outside of Winter Orb but the fact that you have to ramp up to 4, drop it, and then restablish the manabase to begin casting guys kinda sucks, especially if you have no guys on the board in the first place, and the deck only runs 18 lands. With Winter Orb, it can be dropped early and you can play guys under it and the effect lasts until its removed. Unless it's Rifter, Harmonic shouldn't pose a problem with Orb... and against mass removal like Deed's, it still slows them down so that they can walk right into Daze or Stifle. I'm still in the air about whether or not the deck needs the 3rd Harmonic Sliver or not and I still need to test the Threshold matchup alot to see whether the Talon Slivers are really the right sideboard card for them (although I do like them alot vs any other midrange aggro like AS). The sideboard probably still needs tuned more, I think the way it is for now is fine. As I said, I think the maindeck is perfect.

[xsockmonkeyx]

More than 4 Crystalline slivers is unnecessary. You make the argument that it acts like countermagic in that it negates ill effects to your slivers. However, sometimes the things you want to counter have nothing to do with your slivers.

Frankly, your build loses to storm combo game 1 because your counters are lacking in both number and versatility.