Rough doesn't kill your Swarm. If you don't run Swam, though, then Pyroclasm is strictly better.Originally Posted by Giles
Using Earthquake as a kill condition seems quite unlikely, plus I can't think of many creatures with toughness > 2 you would really need to kill. Against aggro decks, both the mana cost and the damage to yourself will bite you.
YOU'RE GIVING ME A TIME MACHINE IN ORDER TO TREAT MY SLEEP DISORDER.
One of the staple cards of The EPIC Storm is main deck Xantid Swarm; it's a deck defining card. If you play 1st turn City of Brass, Xantid Swarm your opponent will more than likely know you are playing TES. That's beside the point.
Earthquake is better than Pyroclasm in TES for the following reasons:
Earthquake doesn't kill Xantid Swarm.
Earthquake doubles as a win condition (Yes, I've done it before).
Earthquake can and does kill creatures with a power of 3 or greater.
These are all things you mentioned, I'm aware, but you seem to take these things for granted. Against threshold if they are going aggro, I want to be able to kill their Mongoose/Bear with their Meddling Mage. Well why didn't they just counter it? Xantid Swarm is more than likely the reason why. The damage from Earthquake has only once ever lost me a game in an event. It was due to be being greedy and trying to Quake for 7 because I could and put him to 2. That made City of Brass a lot less appealing...
I also had the time to test Sylvan Library; I had high hopes for this card after reading Breathweapon's post. My hopes were crushed in actual game play; the card can only actually draw you about 3 cards in a real game without you killing yourself. Between Plunge into Darkness and City of Brass your life total becomes low very fast. The semi-Brainstorm effect was also nice at points but without a lot of shuffle effects it was unnecessary. 1G to rearrange the top 3 wasn't worth it in my book. I personally like Dark Confidant more due to his advantage of Tendrils'ing every turn. If people like Library play it, it just wasn't my cup of tea.
Right now I'm currently testing a new card in the sideboard I'll let everyone know how it goes. I probably won't be releasing it for awhile or at least until after KDLD3.
Earthquake. Rolling is bad because it kills Xantid Swarm.
Also, Quake is a draw condition if the situation is that desperate.
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I am also thinking normal Earthquake is the better one. Since today I won a game via Tendrils -> Earthquake. I do not think I will ever switch back. It might be a 1:1000 shot that it will actually matter what card it is. But I want it to be that make to most impact on the game state.
I also have tested it, i do see the power in the card. However, the only times i can do it twice, if I cast a tendrils. And if I cast a tendrils it should be in the lethal range.
Can you tell us the purpose of the card? (ie Disruption/Kill/Ect)
Last edited by Giles; 03-26-2007 at 12:50 PM.
Yeah, Please? Because if it's Damnation, just tell us now. I really expect much better than that out of you.
I might as well post the changes to the sideboard, they've been leaked anyways. I've been testing Orim's Chant for the last few weeks and I've found it's a much stronger card than Defense Grid for the following reasons:
Orim's Chant can timewalk on your opponent’s upkeep to prevent them from playing hate.
Orim's Chant stops opponents from countering through. (Defense Grid doesn't always get this job done.)
Orim's Chant doesn't burn acceleration to cast. (Defense Grid is best on turn one, and it requires acceleration at that point.)
Orim's Chant can be used as disruption vs. Combo.
Orim's Chant can be sided vs. Goblins.
Orim's Chant is just a more versatile card.
Many of my teammates dislike Orim's Chant and that's alright, if you don't like Orim's Chant play something else. It's still not a final slot in the sideboard.
Orim's Chant has been used in 5c Storm combo before, Grim Long SBed them in against Pitch Long in order to Time Walk in the combo mirror.
One of the problems I have with Xantid Swarm is that it concedes the combo mirror to IGGY POP. TES wastes a turn casting Xantid Swarm, not knowing what the opponent is playing, and the opponent plays Orim's Chant, Time Walks, and then proceeds to win the game.
When Xantid Swarm and Duress are compared side to side,
1) Vs Force of Will, Xantid Swarm causes the opponent to cast Force of Will the Xantid Swarm, -1 card advantage for them. Duress causes the opponent to discard Force of Will, 0 card advantage, but the opponent's hand has been revealed.
Card advantage versus information is arguable, some would prefer the first while others prefer the latter; personally, I'd rather know what is in my opponent's hand than RFG his worst card.
In either case, Force of Will is in the discard pile, and TES must either double Tendrils, Empty the Warrens, LED + Diminishing Returns or LED + Infernal Tutor -> Empty the Warrens.
2) Vs Orim's Chant and Stifle, Xantid Swarm poses a serious problem, the opponent can Orim's Chant on the first main phase in order to Time Walk, or Stifle on the attack phase in order to Time Walk (the opponent can recur the Stifle against Ill Gotten Gains or counter Diminishing Returns) where Duress would discard Orim's Chant and Stifle the turn before (or discard Stifle on the same turn and add 1 storm)
3) Vs Swords to Plowshares and Engineered Explosives, Xantid Swarm gives Swords to Plowshares and Engineered Explosives a target, while Duress disregards Swords to Plowshares and Engineered Explosives altogether, or discards Swords to Plowshares and Engineered Explosives to protect a Tomb of Urami or Empty the Warrens.
4) Vs Trinisphere, Sphere of Resistance, Chalice of the Void, Null Rod and discard, Xantid Swarm is a Time Walk for the opponent, while Duress discards the lock piece or the discard.
4) Vs Flying creatures, as sad as this is to argue, there are a lot of aggro-control decks, Faerie Stompy, that can either chump block Xantid Swarm or force Xantid Swarm not to attack and counter your spells, if you can't combo off on the same turn. There are a lot of weird home brew aggro-control decks like Blue Skys that you can run into at a tournament.
6) Vs Unkown threats, Xantid swarm could or couldn't have an affect on the opponent, while Duress will always have an affect on the opponent.
The pros vs cons of Xantid Swarm vs Duress are enough to make me discard Xantid Swarm in favor of Duress, but Duress has several other benefits that make the decision easier.
1) Duress is black, imprinting for black on Chrome Mox.
2) Duress costs B, so it can be cast off of a Dark Ritual and/or Cabal Ritual.
3) Duress can be cast on the same turn as the combo, adding storm, and cast after a Diminishing Returns, discarding a counter (this also allows the deck to cast Brainstorm before Duress, where casting Brainstorm before Xantid Swarm would be unadvisable)
Note: One could argue that Xantid Swarm protects the Diminishing Returns hand where Duress doesn't, and that's true, but if Xantid Swarm resolved, you're better off going for Ill Gotten Gains.
4) Infernal Tutor can tutor for an additional Duress, where Xantid Swarm would have been cast on the first turn, and a second Duress is more effective at assaulting a counter wall than a second Xantid Swarm, in terms of their mana efficiency, speed and adding to storm count.
Note: One could argue that a second Xantid Swarm that resolves allows TES to use Ill Gotten Gains vs a counter in the discard pile, but even tho' the second Xantid Swarm increases the deck's options, it isn't necessary, you lost a card and you may/may not have lost a turn.
Since I replaced Right of Flame with Simian Spirit Guide and Xantid Swarm with Duress, I've been able to gold fish faster thru' Diminishing Returns, improve the combo, prison and discard match ups while keeping the control and aggro-control match ups about the same. The only match up I feel Duress is a liability in is High Tide, and that is only if I lose the coin flip and can't combo off on turn 2.
This is a double-edged sword for something like Threshold. In g2, do they side out STP? It has only a few reasonable targets, but critical ones. Any time your opponent is keeping STP in their deck it is a minor improvement in the matchup for you.3) Vs Swords to Plowshares and Engineered Explosives, Xantid Swarm gives Swords to Plowshares and Engineered Explosives a target, while Duress disregards Swords to Plowshares and Engineered Explosives altogether, or discards Swords to Plowshares and Engineered Explosives to protect a Tomb of Urami or Empty the Warrens.
Swords to Plowshares is still a double-edged sword for them, because the Xantid Swarm are still in the SB, and the opponent is guaranteed to SB them out. So, game one, the opponent can't Swords to Plowsahres the disruption, and game two, the opponent doesn't have Swords to Plowshares, which is the best case scenario both games (I'll take whatever crap the opponent has in his SB over Swords to Plowshares, so long as it isn't dedicated combo slots).
As a side note, has Threshold started to SB Null Rod in the NA? A lot of people are using them instead of Pithing Needle as a catch all answer, it stops Aether Vial and Tormod's Crypt in Goblins, everything in Affinity and artifact acceleration in combo (Threshold still uses Tividar's Crusade or Pyroclasm to deal with the Goblin tokens).
I never said that it wasn't used in 5c combo before. All I said was that I am currently testing the card.
The combo mirror is pretty much irrelevant, the only combo mirror that is likely going to happen at a large event is Solidarity vs. TES (or Iggy-pop). If we're talking about hands here, I went turn one kill you. Don't base arguments on possible hands/play situations. Also, about 80% of Iggy players don't play MD Orim's Chant. I know you'll bring this up later might as well get it out of the way now, there's one person who opts to play Force of Will in Iggy Pop. That is falsy for testing purposes and results. Even if an Iggy player did play Force of Will it only makes Xantid Swarm Stronger.
Isn't card advantage what this game is based on? If your opponent Force of Wills a 1st turn Xantid Swarm more than likely they don't have another Force of Will so you'll be able to combo. As other intelligent members of this community have said before "Personal preferences do not matter."
Yes, either case it is in the discard pile. However, if the game continues the inevitability is that that single duress not taking the additional card will hurt you. 1st turn it's also possible that they Forced removing a Force of Will also, getting a better two for one. If you Duress again that game they still have Force of Will in the graveyard, slowing you down and almost forcing you to go for Empty the Warrens. If you play another Xantid Swarm they'll be forced to answer it or lose because that Force of Will in the graveyard doesn't matter.
Xantid Swarm forces them to play Orim's Chant/Stifle which is what you want. Also, I would never ever attempt to combo out after a Stifle on Xantid Swarm unless I was forced to. Xantid Swarm draws out the cards you don't want to see which is a benefit of the card. Duress wouldn't hit the Orim's Chant either you would be Chanted in response.
I concede to this argument, no need to argue an obvious thing. "NO! My Xantid Swarm is INDESTRUCTIBLE and UNTARGETABLE! Nub!11!."
Seeing as prison decks aren't overly popular I'll stick to beating the decks that are; Ya know, the ones with islands. The color that we aim to beat.
Xantid Swarm reads:: Whenever Xantid Swarm attacks, attacks, you need to attack once to win the game. Like Gro/Solidarity and other decks with islands, they all play Force of Will, decks like these Xantid Swarm is better because it negates their Force of Will after returning to their hand.
Irrelevancy.
Duress being played on the same turn is why it's bad. Storm in most scenarios is irrelevant(When it comes down to protection.), mana is not. The more mana you have access to the more likely you are to win the game. Better going for for Ill-Gotten Gains? Xantid Swarm protects both Returns and Ill-Gotten Gains better than Duress ever could. In order to win with Ill-Gotten Gains you'd have to return the Duress if your opponent had a Force of Will. -1 Card advantage for you, see card advantage is whats important. Like that Force of Will scenario above, one less card you have so you are less flexible and less likely to win the game.
I don't know what your talking about, Xantid generally comes down before a counterwall. If it doesn't they're equally effective.
Irrelevancy.
Rite of Flame is "STRICTLY" better than SSG. SSG is 4 cards, 4 mana. Rite of Flame at 4 cards is 10R mana. Increasing your mana is what wins you games, not to mention it doesn't add storm. It also removes it’s self from game, which means it can't be recurred with Diminishing Returns/Ill-Gotten Gains. I've yet to see any results or evidence of why those cards are better in the combo, prison and discard match-ups.
You can't even compare xantid to duress. Against control, Xantid says answer this 1st turn or lose. Duress says I'll see your hand, take ONE counterspell, then not protect against any future counterspells and allow the counters you recur from IGG or draw from Dreturns. No compairison.
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Because you can use SSG even if you only have one permanent mana source in play which you have to tap for B for rituals, thus increasing consistency ?Rite of Flame is "STRICTLY" better than SSG. [...] I've yet to see any results or evidence of why those cards are better in the combo, prison and discard match-ups.
georgjorgeGeistreich sind schon die anderen.
1) I wasn't quibbling over whether or not the idea was new, rather that the idea had precedence in another 5c combo deck in another format, 2 counting TEPS, and that I was in favor of the card.
2) Let me explain,
Yes, IGGY POP and High Tide are the two most common combo mirrors this deck can face, and yes, almost all of the good IGGY POP players use Orim's Chant (I have no intention of discussing Force of Will). In theory, you are faster than IGGY POP, and you should be able to win the match on your speed, in reality it isn't so, because Xantid Swarm forces you to miss assign your role.
Take the following for example,
You sit down next to an unknown oppoent, you lose the coin flip, and your opponent plays a blue fetch land. You draw, you play a golden land, you have a Xantid Swarm in your hand, you see your opponent played a blue fetch land, you play your Xantid Swarm. At this point, you have walked into IGGY POP's plan, your opponent is going to EOT Brainstorm or Mystical Tutor for Orim's Chant and Time Walk into his next turn.
This is the problem I have with the mirror, if that Xantid Swarm had been Duress, then you would have had a chance to either discard an Orim's Chant, if the opponent didn't have a Brainstorm or Mystical Tutor, or discard any card that would allow the opponent to combo off.
Regardless, even if the opponent was known, the chances of winning the match with MD Duress are higher than the chances of winning the match with MD Xantid Swarm, you can't count on "Turn 1 Win" as an answer to an opponent's deck.
3) Card advantage is the basis of MTG? Tempo is the basis of MTG? Information is the basis of MTG? Math is the basis of MTG? Luck is the basis of MTG? Each of those points could be argued, but I think we can agree that all of them are important.
Duress was, and still is, used MD in Grim Long instead of Xantid Swarm, and there has to be a reason for it; I contend that the reason is in fact because of the information, tempo and one, if not more, of the other reasons I provided.
4) You can't tell me to not use specific examples as arguments and then turn around with a specific example of "the opponent could RFG a Force of Will to a Force of Will" as a counter argument. I think the likely hood of my examples have been greater than the likely hood of you examples, in all fairness.
I agree that -1 card advantage from Xantid Swarm is an advantage as the games progresses, but so is the information from Duress. One puts you in a better position in the long term, while the other allows you to make optimal decisions. Just because the opponent Force of Willed the Xantid Swarm doesn't mean he wont have another Force of Will, Counter Spell, Daze or Stifle in his hand
5) The point is that the opponent can still use Orim's Chant and Stifle as Time Walks into Meddling Mage or Null Rod, while Duress discards Orim's Chant and Stifle and doesn't allow the opponent to play around your disruption.
Yes, the opponent can Orim's Chant in response to Duress, but if Duress is cast on the first turn, the same turn as Xantid Swarm, the opponent has to discard the Orim's Chant before the combo turn, while the opponent could still Orim's Chant on the combo turn with Xantid Swarm. Duress is a full turn faster than Xantid Swarm against Orim's Chant and two full turns faster than Xantid Swarm against Stifle.
Yes, being able to draw out Orim's Chant and Stifle is a benefit of Xantid Swarm, if all the opponent has is a handful of Orim's Chant and Stifle, otherwise it's a liability that will give the opponent the turn he needs to play his Meddling Mage or Null Rod
Being able to recur Duress in order to attempt the Ill Gotten Gains chain or cast Duress after a Diminishing Returns are two things that Xantid Swarm can not hope to do, so I don't think they should be used as arguments against Duress; I find be able to Duress after Diminishing Returns is incredibly useful, where a Force of Willed Xantid Swarm on the previous turn left you completely naked after you resolve your Diminishing Returns.
6) Just because a deck uses a prison piece doesn't mean it's a prison deck, Faerie Stompy for example, and there are plenty of decks that SB prison pieces like Null Rod (Threshold), Chalice of the Void (Goblins, Affinity, Board Control), Trinisphere (discard), Sphere of Resistance (discard), Tangle Wire (aggro), Blood Moon (aggro) Pyrostatic Pillar (aggro) and Root Maze (aggro) etc.
7) I realize this, however, against decks with a flying creature, where you can't combo off immediately, Xantid Swarm can't protect you from your opponent countering a key set up card, Burning Wish or Plunge into Darkness, unless you are willing to sacrifice it before your combo turn.
It could be something of a moot point, it's just something I experienced against Blue Skys.
8) It's relevant, being able to imprint black on a Chrome Mox is better than being able to imprint green on a Chrome Mox, and you are more likely to be able to support casting a Duress off of a Chrome Mox, by imprinting another black card than you are another green card (keeping open red or blue mana)
Being able to cast Duress off of a Dark Ritual or Cabal Ritual changes the entire deck, because now the opponent can be disrupted on the first turn, and the opponent has to consider Force of Willing a single Dark Ritual on the draw. It's also a lot more synergistic with your double Tendrils plan or Empty the Warrens plan, where you can cast Duress to add storm, or after a Diminishing Returns, where you can cast a ritual off of the mana floating and then Duress. Basically, it turns all of your rituals into much more significant threats to your opponent.
9) Casting Duress on the combo turn isn't what makes it bad, it's what makes it flexible. You don't have to cast Duress on the combo turn, but the deck can cast Duress on the combo turn when it needs storm more than it needs mana, Diminishing Returns, double Tendrils or Empty the Warrens etc.
10) What I meant was that Infernal Tutor for Duress is more efficient than Infernal Tutor for Xantid Swarm if the deck is in need of breaking thru the counter wall. Duress can be in hand longer than Xantid Swarm, because it has an immediate effect, the deck isn't forced to cast Duress and wait a turn, which allows the deck to Brainstorm before it casts its disruption. Basically, since you don't have to play Duress immediately in order to play it optimally, you gain more possibilities which interact beneficially with Infernal Tutor.
11) It is relevant, if the two decks are racing each other, discarding a card instead of regaining the Ill Gotten Gains loop against the Force of Will in the discard pile, on the next turn, could be game breaking (It happens a lot against Confinement Control, Illusions/Donate, Psychatog, Wee/Dryad or Bomberman)
12) Right of Flame is not "STRICTLY" superior to Simian Spirit Guide, in fact, both cards have their own strengths and weaknesses; 4 Right of Flame vs 4 Simian Spirit Guide isn't a realistic comparison, yes, if you draw 4 Right of Flame, you are going to produce more mana, I like drawing Royal Flushes in poker as well.
Right of Flame adds storm, and in addition, adds mana in multiples, but the deck needs red mana to cast Right of Flame, where the deck doesn't need red mana to cast Simian Spirit Guide. What I found was that the deck couldn't count on Chrome Mox to produce that red mana with out imprinted either the red ritual or the red spell I wanted to cast in the first place. With Simian Spirit Guide the deck can be more aggressive with a single land/Lotus Petal, black rituals and Empty the Warrens or two land/Lotus Petal and Diminishing Returns on the first two turns, because Simian Spirit Guide doesn't bottle neck the deck's mana, and the opponent can't counter the red source (The opponent is going to counter 2 Right of Flame {Force of Will on the second Right of Flame} more than he is going to counter a couple of innocuous spells followed with 2 SSG)
Edit: Simian Spirit Guide also increase the number of turn one plays.
As far as additional mana, storm and threshold, I can't argue the last two points, but SSGs can add just as much mana as multiple Right of Flame, it just adds that mana after Diminishing Returns, where the 0 for R is much more efficient than the R for RR return.
Diminishing Returns shuffling SSG or Right of Flame in the deck seems like an irrelevant argument to me, Right of Flame isn't the mana source the deck wants to see after a Diminishing Returns. Not being able to Ill Gotten Gains the red mana source is arguable, I didn't Ill Gotten Gains Right of Flame over Dark Ritual, Lion's Eye Diamond or even Cabal Ritual or Lotus Petal in most cases I can remember.
This isn't an argument, if the opponent has a counter, then the counter was cast on Xantid Swarm, so Duress taking "ONE" counter is no worse than the "ONE" counter Xantid Swarm drew out; assuming the opponent countered the Xantid Swarm, then the Xantid Swarm isn't preventing the opponent from recurring the counter either, and assuming the opponent didn't counter the Xantid Swarm, Duress could have discarded something that was relevant (either a combo piece, prison piece, discard or a cantrip that would find one of the above) and there is nothing stopping the deck from using Ill Gotten Gains. The best case scenario is that Xantid Swarm resolves and the deck is going to combo off with Diminishing Returns, but if the deck has the option to combo off with either Ill Gotten Gains or Diminishing Returns on the table, then the deck is going to combo off with Ill Gotten Gains, so the argument is applicable when the deck has Burning Wish and can't chain into an Ill Gotten Gains (kind of specific, IMO) where Diminishing Returns can still make use of Duress as a set up card AND after the Diminishing Returns to draw out a Force of Will, so if neither Xantid Swarm or Duress were drawn, or both Xantid Swarm and Duress were countered, then Duress stands a better chance at discarding a counter after a Diminishing Returns.
Edit: As far as Duress and Simian Spirit Guide improving the prison and discard match ups, I don't think I need to present evidence for something that is this obvious, Duress discards prison pieces and discard on the play, where Xantid Swarm Time Walks the opponent into playing his prison piece or discard on the play (I assume the deck casts its Xantid Swarm blind, if it can't combo off, when Brainstorming just gives blue decks the advantage if the deck has to choose between Xantid Swarm and Brainstorm)
Simian Spirit Guide produces R mana for free, free mana sources that can't be Wasted, can't be Trinisphered, can be cast thru' Chalice 1 in a color that the deck is desperate for is an obvious improvement over a card that is Trinisphered, countered on Chalice 1 and is the best chance the deck has for RR for Shattering Spree.
If you honestly want evidence, ask yourself whether or not you'd ever want Xantid Swarm against Prison or Discard, there's your evidence.
1.) I never miss assign my roles, I play one, combo. Have you ever tested this match-up? I have. My results with Chant SB like where most Iggy Pop players have it I won 13 out of 20 games. This was before I added Chant to the sideboard, it would probably increase the results. I won 8 of the pre-board and 5 after.
2.) If that Xantid had been Duress your opponent would still have an Orim’s Chant on top of their library. If we’re looking for a card to stop this from happening there’s always Glimpse of the Unthinkable and Brainfreeze.
3.) The Iggy-pop VS. TES match-up is not relevant enough to warrant changing a completely optimal list to improve a match-up you might play once in a blue moon.
4.) Duress gives you a greater percentage of wins than Xantid? As a whole or against Iggy? As a whole Xantid Swarm is better against decks with Force of Will. Yes, Xantid is worse than Duress when your opponents aren’t playing counter magic. However, if they’re not playing counter magic you more than likely have a good match-up.
5.) Grim Long as a whole is a lot stronger of a deck than TES, due to the power level of cards in Vintage. I do not have “Opps, I drew Yawgmoth’s will.” None the less it’s hard to compare two similar decks in theory, when the card pools are drastically different in reality.
6.) I didn’t even realize that I did, my mistake. More than likely they won’t have another in the opening turns. An advantage of TES is that it doesn’t give Threshold and fish decks time to sculpt their hands.
7.) Xantid Swarm draws out Orim’s Chant and Stifle just as well as Duress does. If your opponent doesn’t Chant in response to Xantid they lose, if they don’t stifle Xantid they’ll lose. Xantid can do this repeatidly where as Duress is also a one time effect where Xantid is a long lasting ability. You know TES was created to dodge Meddling Mage right? Also, I’ve never played against a Null rod in my life. Once I see one I’ll start thinking about it. Also, Null rod isn’t that huge threat with ETW in the deck.
6.) You cannot create a chain if you recur Duress, even once. Recurring Duress over Lion’s eye Diamond is too much of a liability and won’t win you the game if your opponent recurs Force of Will, Stifle, and blue card. If you attack with Xantid Swarm before returns none of your opponents cards matter. If you just Duress after what if they have multiple Forces/Stifles after returns? You’re screwed.
7.) You’re right; however a lot of the examples in decks you posted don’t use the cards you posted.
8.) If my opponent wants to waste their counter magic on Plunge into Darkness let them. It’s one less card that they have to disrupt me.
9.) The deck will not keep a single Chrome Mox hand to begin with. You will have a 5c land, so whatever card you imprint on Chrome Mox is basically Irrelevant. It could tap for purple. Duress off a Ritual is wasted if there’s not a Hymn to Tourach attached or you’re winning. More than likely you won’t be winning on the first turn because there’s no extra mana on turn one wins to waste.
10.) This is a moot argument. Either way both cards are going to be countered.
11.) Since when are any of those decks widely played?
12) Yes it is, You only need to draw one more to make it strictly better. Actually the first one is still strictly better, it adds storm. Red mana isn’t hard to acquire with 4 Lotus Petal, 4 Chrome mox and 10 lands that produce any color. No, they are more likely to counter spells after SSG. I don’t waste acceleration on setting up the win, there’s no need for unnecessary set up spells if they waste acceleration.
13.) I’m glad you conceded that argument.
14.) Diminishing Returns doesn’t shuffle SSG it gets removed from the game. Decreasing your chances of drawing acceleration after the shuffle. Any mana source is wasnted after Diminishing Returns so I don’t know where you’re coming from. I return Rite of Flame and Dark Ritual a lot actually with Ill-Gotten Gains. Sometimes Rite of Flame is even better than Dark Ritual.
1) The problem tho' is that the opponent's plan isn't known game 1, and a Polluted Delta, Flooded Strand, Underground Sea or Tundra bait TES into casting Xantid Swarm, Time Walking the opponent into his next turn.
2) Read that paragraph again, if the opponent casts M.Tutor or Brainstorm, then the opponent has an Orim's Chant on top of his deck. If the opponent doesn't cast M.Tutor or Brainstorm, then Duress discards the Orim's Chant. If the opponent casts M.Tutor or Brainstorm, then the Duress can discard a tutor or an accelerant. If the opponent doesn't cast an M.Tutor or Brainstorm, and the opponent doesn't have an Orim's Chant, then the Duress can discard a tutor or an accelerant.
In all of the possible scenarios, Duress > Xantid Swarm vs IGGY POP.
3) IGGY POP and TES are both popular, and the Tendrils mirror, TES vs IGGY POP or TES vs TES, is common here (There is 0 High Tide) as well as combo control.
4) Based on the meta game, I've had higher win percentages with MD Duress and SB Xantid Swarm than MD Xantid Swarm. Based on blue decks, I've had a lower win percentage against U/g/w Threshold (it doesn't make any sense to me at all), higher win percentage against U/g/r Threshold, higher win percentage against Faerie Stompy (from discarding Chalice of the Void) and a higher win percentage against traditional control decks.
5) I agree, but regardless of the other 56 cards, the role of Duress in combo decks tends to be identical.
6) No problem, but, IMO, there's nothing wrong with using a specific example, so long as that specific example is relevant.
7) I suppose it's relative to the meta game, Null Rod is in Threshold SBs and Chalice of the Void and Pyrostatic Pillar are in Goblin SBs, that's enough for me.
Edit: Null Rod is in Threshold SBs for the same reason Stifle is in Threshold SBs, the card is great against Goblins, their Aether Vial and Tormod's Crypt, and incidentally even greater against combo (it also absolutely destroys Affinity).
8) Conceded
9) It is relevant, being able to tap Chrome Mox for black means that the deck can tap its lands for red or blue, so the deck can Burning Wish for Empty the Warrens and cast it on the same turn or Burning Wish for Diminishing Returns, pass, and cast black rituals and Diminishing Returns on the next turn.
You can't state that the color of a Chrome Mox is irrelevant and then state that Chrome Mox can produce the 0 for R red mana (with 2 red cards in a deck that has 11 red cards max) the deck needs in place of Simian Spirit Guide.
Black vs green on Chrome Mox isn't a point that is going to win the Duress vs Xantid Swarm argument on its own, but I don't think there is a single person who wouldn't agree that black on a Chrome Mox is more desirable than green.
10) I'm not certain which argument is being addressed
11) A lot here, regardless the point remains that if Xantid Swarm resolves, then the Duress would have also resolved and discarded something relevant, be it an Orim's Chant, Stifle, cantrip, Null Rod or Engineered Explosives etc.
12) No it isn't; when compared in a vacuum, the additional mana, storm and threshold win the argument, when compared in an actual game, SSG's 0 for R matters (It also does other stuff, like protect the disruption and tutors from Daze or attack/block as a 2/2)
You cast Right of Flame, Right of Flame before casting artifacts, because if the opponent counters the second Right of Flame, the deck can save the storm. SSG is cast after the deck casts its artifacts, because the opponent can't counter SSG and can't predict (at least as easily) an Empty the Warrens. The opponent is just as likely to counter a spell after a Right of Flame as he is to counter a spell after an SSG, it's ultimately the same end result.
More turn one plays as in more Empty the Warrens, Dark Confidants or Burning Wish for Diminishing Returns or Ill Gotten Gains, where the accelerant is recouped as a Time Walk for Empty the Warrens, another card and 2 damage for Dark Confidant, a new hand of 7 cards or a turn one win.
It does matter.
13) Which argument?
14) RFGing the Simian Spirit Guide as opposed to shuffling in the Right of Flame isn't a significant statistic, I could argue that the 1 less card in the deck after a Diminishing Returns is 1 more card that could be an accelerant, win condition or tutor the deck could draw. Yes, all accelerants are welcome after a D7, but some accelerants are more welcome than others; I'd argue that 0 for R is better than R for RR, considering the deck floats black more often than it floats red.
I'll concede the Ill Gotten Gains point.
1.)Should I not play 1st turn Xantid from now on if my opponent plays a Flooded Strand? No, because it is the correct thing to do regardless. Also it’s still not a bad play if we’re discussing Iggy Pop with MD Chant.
2) Whoops, read that wrong. It still doesn’t change the fact that Xantid would still draw out the Chant.
3) It’s funny that we’re discussing this, last night my local metagame had it’s first legacy event in almost 2 months. Round two I played Iggy pop, needless to say I won 2-0. I still stand by the fact that it’s not a prevalent enough match-up to warrant changes to the deck.
4) I don’t base my lists on a metagame, whatsoever. It’s something I’ve never done, I only play in large events pretty much and occasionally I’ll play a weekly event. Creating a metagame deck is just that, a deck that will only do well in your metagame. I discourage that and all people who think that’s a good idea. Now back on topic, Yes, Xantid Swarm isn’t the greatest against red gro but it depends on the build. If it’s Hatfield Red Gro, your fine it’s no different from White Gro. If it’s people playing my old list, Xantid is terrible. I have tested a lot of Faerie Stompy lately and I’ve been starting to believe it’s a myth that it destroys combo. This deck can combo through Chalice and even with multiple Chalices I’ve done it. AND weaker match-up against the tier one control deck? C’mon that would be my deciding factor right there to play Xantid Swarm over Duress. Traditional control decks play 4x one for one removal spells, I’m fairly sure that Xantid Swarm has the same effect. It’s no different from White Gro and Hatfield Red Thresh.
5-8.) No need for further discussion of these, I’ve gone over my view on metagaming.
9) This argument is too based on game state for it to be relative. I could counter argue that if I have LED, LED, Mox, Brainstorm, land, Dark Ritual, and Infernal tutor that it’s irrelevant. However, both of our arguments would get us nowhere because of different game states. Yes, black on mox is more desirable than green but there’s a lot of situations that neither one matter which was my point. Needless to say basing an argument for protection on removing yours from the game to add a different color mana seems weak.
10) The if your opponent has 2 counterspells argument.
11) Well those decks aren’t widely played here. If Xantid resolves he has a much larger effect on the game than a single Duress.
12) I still stand by the fact that the Storm, mana, better in multiples, and being able to recur from the graveyard beats I got a free mana. “I got a free pickle hey, hey, hey.” – Little Rascals. If I have a second Rite of Flame its still better 4 mana > 2 mana. If your argument is it’s counterable, I guess LED, Dark Ritual and other broken accelerants should be cut for ESG. You mention Dark Confidant and SSG in the same sentence? Wow. Bad move, that’s three damage off a Confidant now that you mention it. There’s another reason not to play it.
13) The Ill-Gotten Gains argument.
14) I like to float one(Black) and one(Red)(Blue) if I have a choice. If it comes down to floating just one mana it’s probably going to be black. Regardless there’s less red sources in the deck for Burning Wish/Empty the warrens if SSG is RFG.
1) That's the entire point, TES is going to cast Xantid Swarm in reaction to a blue land, it's an inherent weakness against IGGY POP that can be solved via Duress.
2) I agree, but drawing out the Chant still allows the opponent to Chant as a Time Walk in the combo mirror, which is its purpose.
3-8) Xantid Swarm vs Duress is and isn't a metagame argument, the role of the two cards are almost identical; I could argue that being able to cast Duress after a Diminishing Returns, being able to discard another card when the opponent doesn't have a Force of Will and being able to discard prison pieces and discard makes it better on the whole.
Edit: I'm not certain that the decrease in the U/g/w Threshold match up is less on account of Duress, I've just been having a hard time against U/g/w since it added Null Rod to the SB.
9) I agree it's a minor point, but it's not an irrelevant point. I Burning Wish for Diminishing Returns turn one (Chrome Mox/black, City of Brass) and cast Diminishing Returns with B mana floating turn two (Gemstone Mine) a lot.
10) Whether or not both cards are going to be countered or not is irrelevant, Duress, because it doesn't have summoning sickness, can remain in the hand longer than Xantid Swarm (Between Brainstorm and Duress and Brainstorm and Xantid Swarm, the deck can cast Brainstorm before Duress better than it can cast Xantid Swarm before Brainstorm) because of this, Infernal Tutor gains additional targets.
11) That's fine, but I disagree.
12) It's 3 mana vs 2 mana, the first Right of Flame is R for RR and the second Right of Flame is R for RRR, that's RR for RRRRR or RRRRR - RR = RRR.
LED and Dark Ritual have nothing to do with Right of Flame vs Simian Spirit Guide, being 0 mana, red and uncounterable is what's important here.
Turn one City of Brass + Right of Flame = No Dark Confidant, where turn one City of Brass + Simian Spirit Guide = Dark Confidant and turn one Dark Confidant = +1 card and +2 damage with a net gain of 2 damage.
Besides, being able to protect Xantid Swarm/Duress from Daze on the draw is an added bonus, drawing the Daze keeps the opponent off of Meddling Mage for another turn.
13) Ok
14) The Right of Flame still has a 1/6 chance of being RFGed, regardless, the statistical difference isn't that much.
Alright.
I am having the hardest times aginst Counterbalance-Control-decks. Is there any tips aganist them?
EDIT: Okay. I do know the answer of not letting them get Counterbalance on the playing area and do a ETW finish. But is there any insights that can be used.
Today at Mestre (Italy) I'm arrived second at a 34 (or 38? I don't remember) players tournament.
Thanks to wastedlife
And sorry for my english.
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