[OLD] UGw Threshold

[Bardo]

My new sideboard:

3 Hydroblast
3 Armageddon
3 Absolute Law
2 Loaming Shaman
2 Krosan Grip
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Mystic Enforcer

vs. Goblins
+3 Absolute Law
+3 Hydroblast
+1 Mystic Enforcer (odd, I know--but it works)

-4 Meddling Mage
-1 Engineered Explosives (unless they're boarding COTV)
-1 Counterspell, -1 Daze (on the draw) /// -2 Counterspell (on the play)

As far as I'm concerned, even the FOWs are on the block for potential cuts post-board. Daze es muy bueno.

Bitching stuff re: Absolute Law:

- Goblins: their guys, T Crypt, Gempalm Incinerator, Fanatic vs. 1/1 Werebears.
- RDW, everything.
- Burn, Flamebreak, stuff.

[kikkofrio]

Playing 17 lands:
- 3 flooded
- 3 windswept
- 2 polluted
- 4 tundra
- 4 tropoical
- 2 island
- 1 forest

Have you ever considered the idea to play only 1 enforcer (as ugwr) and insert 2 psionic blast to improving mu against aggro?
So, I know that psionic is a cc3, and it may be really heavy on the the deck, but playing it in 2x with 3 basic land wouldn't be so terrible.

What do you think about that?

[Citrus-God]

Personally, I think Chills would do much better against Goblins than Absolute Law. Chills can at least slow them down without the help of a Creature. And since your running Mental Note, Chill's effect can easily be used capitalize on Goblins state very easily,

[noobslayer]

I think we discussed it a fair bit, but Goblins will likely mull into a hand with vial or lackey, meaning if one of those goes unanswered, chill does next to nothing here. Granted absolute law doesn't do much without a creature, but it can help stem the bleeding the turn it comes down.

[Bardo]

@ Kikkofrio - As long as you're running 14 or so cantrips, that manabase looks fine.

Have you ever considered the idea to play only 1 enforcer (as ugwr) and insert 2 psionic blast to improving mu against aggro?

Condemn would be far better if you needed more tools against aggro; 3 mana is really over the hump in this deck, and getting Shocked to do so doesn't seem like a sweet deal either.

Personally, I think Chills would do much better against Goblins than Absolute Law.

Chill is better against RDW and Burn (two fairly unpopular decks; well, I guess we all see Burn from time to time); but n00bslayer has it right: Chill is junk vs. Lackey/Vial. Absolute Law will buy you indefinite time for the Enforcer plan, or just to have a stable Mongoose/Werebear wall, where you can swing for 3-4 for a couple of turns and then just alpha strike for 11-12 or so, and there's not a damn thing they can do about it, short of StP.

With 10 guys--test it.

The important thing is that it blanks Incinerator and Crypt.

[Volt]

I think Chill is getting a bad rap here. Even with an active Aether Vial on the table, Chill still really slows down Gobs. Yeah, you still have to worry about turn 1 Lackey, but you always have to worry about that. Oh, and Chill + Pithing Needle naming Aether Vial pretty much locks them out. Just sayin.

[Bardo]

I think Chill is getting a bad rap here. Even with an active Aether Vial on the table, Chill still really slows down Gobs. Yeah, you still have to worry about turn 1 Lackey, but you always have to worry about that. Oh, and Chill + Pithing Needle naming Aether Vial pretty much locks them out. Just sayin.

Just to play Devil's Attorney here, Goblins has a lot of ways to cheat on mana; the aforementioned AEther Vial, Goblin Lackey, plus Goblin Warchief. Without those three (12) cards, Chill will put a huge beating on Goblins and make Daze even stronger. Though it's shit in the mid/late game.

Whereas, Absolute Law has the advantage of being good even in the late game (unlike Chill) and excels at blanking Goblins trumps; which Chill does not.

Honestly, I'm not 100% sure that I'm right and that Absolute Law is the Right Card for the Job--but it's looking very attractive for some critical strategic reasons.

[Citrus-God]

Chill is better against RDW and Burn (two fairly unpopular decks; well, I guess we all see Burn from time to time); but n00bslayer has it right: Chill is junk vs. Lackey/Vial. Absolute Law will buy you indefinite time for the Enforcer plan, or just to have a stable Mongoose/Werebear wall, where you can swing for 3-4 for a couple of turns and then just alpha strike for 11-12 or so, and there's not a damn thing they can do about it, short of StP.

With 10 guys--test it.

The important thing is that it blanks Incinerator and Crypt.

It seems that getting rid of Lackey and/or Vial is part of your game plan anyways, and even if those go unanswered, your going to lose anyways. Chill at least adapts with your game plan, and keeps them from over extending against you (it makes sure Gempalm is useless at that moment as well).

IMO, the the reason to run Chill is make Daze interactive,
slow Goblins down until turn 6 (if they make consistent land drops which I doubt), and the such. By the time they have enough mana for Warcheif, it's probably enough to play through one Chill.... before their 5th Land drop, you should have played a 2nd Chill. Chills are amazing and synergizing to your game plan; the first Chill stalls them of enough time for you to find more multiples and allow you to capitalize on them.

Test it Bardo, I know you'll like it. I also doubt Helmut Summersberger would've done well if he didnt run Chills in the SB against Goblins. His take on Threshold was amazing, and always assumed the role of Beatdown free counters backed up. I tried it with the Hatfield deck with Stifles and I love it! Stifles hit Crypt, meanwhile Chills do their thing. It slows them down so much, I saw a Ringleader resolve too and we both knew that he would still play his Goblins one at a time, so he scooped seeing a Bear and 2 Geese on the board. Keep in mind I stalled him into ultra late game. He would've won at that time.

[Bardo]

The more I think about Tarmogoyf, the more I'm thinking he's going to bump Werebear and his shitty ass flavor text.



Tarmogoyf
{1} {G}
Creature - Lhurgoyf
Future Sight - Rare

Tarmogoyf's power is equal to the number of card types among cards in all graveyards and it's toughness is equal to that number plus 1. (The card types are artifact, creature, enchantment, instant, land, planeswalker, sorcery, and tribal).

Consider a few opening plays:

Turn 1: Delta, fetching Island, Serum Visions; Daze Lackey/Vial on your opponent's turn.
Turn 2: Heath, fetching Forest, play Nimble Mongoose.
Turn 3: replay Island, Tarmogoyf (4/5).

Alternately:

Turn 1: Delta, fetching Island, EOT Mental Note dredging Serum Visions and EE.
Turn 2: Heath, fetching Forest, Tarmogoyf (4/5).

Sweet jesus.

Theoretically, he can be as large as an 8/9 for two mana--though that's really freaking unlikely, given that we have no idea how Legacy-viable Tribal and Planeswalker cards are.

Still, in a deck like Threshold, he'll usually be a 3/4 - 5/6 for minimal investment; most likely 4/5 given the most common card types are land, instant, sorcery, creature.

Compared with Werebear:

+ very rarely an x/1
+ even if a 0/1, if your opponent sac's a Fanatic, he's automatically 1/2 (the trigger stacks, but the Fanatic hits the GY as part of the cost of his ability, Tarmogoyf gets +1/+1 as a state-based effect [someone, correct me if I'm wrong on this point])
+ can get much seriously huge
++ greater protection to GY hate since it counts cards in your opponent's GY (in a lot of cases, even if a Grunt or Shaman eats your GY, Tarmogoyf will still be big enough to trump Grunt/Shaman, because of your opponent)
- doesn't tap for {G}
- can be a 3/4 for the same cost as Werebear

Aesthetically:

+ King-hell looking card frame; I love it.
+ No shitty flavor text.
+ Lhurgoyfs are cooler than lycanthropic bears, by a fucking mile

Basically, do the relative pay-offs of Tarmogoyf compensate for his inability to tap for Green?

[z38gm]

I think the best part about the Lhurgoyf is the fact that he nullifies cards like crypt because your opponent would have to keep their yard empty as well as yours to keep his fat off, it seems more often than not he would be larger than the bear. I think its definitly worth testing.

[Happy Gilmore]

I think the best part about the Lhurgoyf is the fact that he nullifies cards like crypt because your opponent would have to keep their yard empty as well as yours to keep his fat off, it seems more often than not he would be larger than the bear. I think its definitly worth testing.

He is very interesting indead but I would not underestimate Werebear's ability to produce green mana. Testing will tell how good he really is but the prospect of a large threat withought thresh is quite tempting. And I clearly didn't read the card too well in the spoiler, I did not realize it worked for your opponent as well. Lightning bolt a warchief to give him +2/+2?

[Volt]

Basically, do the relative pay-offs of Tarmogoyf compensate for his inability to tap for Green?

Just talking off the top of my head (or out of some other body part, if you prefer), I think the answer to your question is yes. How often is the "tap for green" ability really relevant? When playing Mystic Enforcer? Armageddon after sideboard?

Another question worth asking... Do you maybe cut Mystic Enforcer instead, and run 4x Mongoose + 4x Tarmogoyf + 2-4x Werebear? Losing Mystic Enforcer might hurt the Goblins matchup a bit...

[Gekoratel]

I think we discussed it a fair bit, but Goblins will likely mull into a hand with vial or lackey, meaning if one of those goes unanswered, chill does next to nothing here.

I'm not sure if this statement is entrily true, Goblins has such an advantage in this matchup that the benefits of aggresivly mulliganing are not very high. Now for Goblins in the combo matchup the complete opposite is true. For example I would keep this hand if I knew my opponent was playing Thresh
2 Fetch
1 Mountain
1 Port
1 Warchief
1 Matron
1 Ringleader

This hand doesnt come out of the gates very fast but it has a very strong lategame so if you can survive the early beats that Threshold puts on you odds are you are going to win the game.

Losing Mystic Enforcer might hurt the Goblins matchup a bit

Isn't this matchup already pretty abysmal for the Thresh side. Knowing this you can either hope to do mise by avioding the matchup and run your setup or try to have a shot and keep Mystic Enforcers.

[Bryant Cook]

While reading Bardo's post this came to my mind, is it any better than Dryad? Calm down, take a breather and continue reading. Neither are extremely strong on turn two, both start out in bolt/random damage range. I know you can wait to Tarmogoyf or whatever his name is, but if thats one of his advantages it seems weak. Dryad can continue growing past the average Tarmogoyf, don't give me that crap about him being a 8/9 for 1G, It'll happen once in a blue moon. I personally think Dryad is crap, nor do I feel like defending it beyond this post. I think Werebear will end up staying, I just wanted to get the idea out in people's minds that he isn't too much of a new idea, but possibly a better old idea.

[Zach Tartell]

While reading Bardo's post this came to my mind, is it any better than Dryad? Calm down, take a breather and continue reading. Neither are extremely strong on turn two, both start out in bolt/random damage range. I know you can wait to Tarmogoyf or whatever his name is, but if thats one of his advantages it seems weak. Dryad can continue growing past the average Tarmogoyf, don't give me that crap about him being a 8/9 for 1G, It'll happen once in a blue moon. I personally think Dryad is crap, nor do I feel like defending it beyond this post. I think Werebear will end up staying, I just wanted to get the idea out in people's minds that he isn't too much of a new idea, but possibly a better old idea.

I'm pretty happy that you put rocks back in my pockets. He is pretty good. But, I'm not sure that he's broken good. Probably not even better than bear. But it certainly makes mental note nuts. 4 goose, 4 bear, 3 of this guy, 4 mage, 1 enforcer. Maybe not. Anyway, I think that this'll help out white thresh as a two-of maybe. He has potential, but you'd almost have to play mental note with him. I'll meditate on it.

[Volt]

While reading Bardo's post this came to my mind, is it any better than Dryad? Calm down, take a breather and continue reading. Neither are extremely strong on turn two, both start out in bolt/random damage range. I know you can wait to Tarmogoyf or whatever his name is, but if thats one of his advantages it seems weak. Dryad can continue growing past the average Tarmogoyf, don't give me that crap about him being a 8/9 for 1G, It'll happen once in a blue moon. I personally think Dryad is crap, nor do I feel like defending it beyond this post. I think Werebear will end up staying, I just wanted to get the idea out in people's minds that he isn't too much of a new idea, but possibly a better old idea.

Tarmogoyf is quite obviously better than Dryad.

[Bardo]

I think the best part about the Lhurgoyf is the fact that he nullifies cards like crypt because your opponent would have to keep their yard empty as well as yours to keep his fat off, it seems more often than not he would be larger than the bear.

Yeah, just to be clear, that's one of this guy's saving graces: better resilience to GY hate.

He is very interesting indead but I would not underestimate Werebear's ability to produce green mana. Testing will tell how good he really is but the prospect of a large threat withought thresh is quite tempting.

I agree fully. Bear's mana ability is useful in the mirror (nullifying Daze) or deploying a Mongoose or another Werebear while keeping Counterspell mana up. The turn-3 Enforcer is extremely freaking rare. More likely, against LD (Sinkhole, Wasteland, etc.) once you hit three land + Werebear you can power him out; but this is only key or game-breaking in the Red Death or B/W Pikula matches.

Really, I think that's the biggest thing you're giving up with Werebear, the mana ability, which is why I bolded it above.

Armageddon after sideboard?

It happens, but only rarely.

Do you maybe cut Mystic Enforcer instead, and run 4x Mongoose + 4x Tarmogoyf + 2-4x Werebear? Losing Mystic Enforcer might hurt the Goblins matchup a bit...

I'd keep Enforcer, since he's gold (pun, etc.) in a lot of situationst that are hard to navigate without him.

The Goose is staying where is he in the line-up. You've seen Rikki-Tikki-Tavi, right? Bad Fucking Ass.

Isn't this matchup already pretty abysmal for the Thresh side.

Depending on the player/build, it's in the 40/60 range at worst, esp. on the draw--more like 50/50 or 45/55 on the play. Doable, though not a cause for celebration.

While reading Bardo's post this came to my mind, is it any better than Dryad?

Loads more, yes. Like the difference between a non-evasive 11/11 vs. a non-evasive 6/7 or 5/6 or pretty negligible. If you get through, you'll pretty much win. And getting a Dryad massive is quite an investment and an otherwise wretched topdeck, mid/late game. Whereas, the 'goyf is a stellar mid/late game top-deck, likely being a 5/6 past turn 6-7 or so right off the bat.

Tarmogoyf or whatever his name is

Yeah, I had to copy/paste it in my post above a dozen times. Werebear does have the advantage of being infinitely easier to spell. :)

He is pretty good. But, I'm not sure that he's broken good.

Right. The question is: Is he/it better than Werebear?

[Happy Gilmore]

Right. The question is: Is he/it better than Werebear?

It is very very possible. he is a turn 2 2/3 for two if you go first turn fetch-> Serum Visions or Portent. Dazing a creature that turn makes him a 4/5 on your next turn O_o. He actually gives thesh sustainable speed and resiliance to graveyard hate at the same time, something I never thought possible.

[Bardo]

He actually gives thesh sustainable speed and resiliance to graveyard hate at the same time, something I never thought possible.

Right! It would often be the case that a Tormod's Crypt, esp coming from a fast aggro deck (see Goblins), would freaking wreck Thresh when it was withing striking distance of winning.

Having resilience from GY hate alone probably makes up for whatever benefit 'Bear's "Tap for G" provides. I mean, we don't play Werebear because he can do that, and we'd still play him without it; 4/4s for 1G are GOOD. 4/5s for the same cost that don't cave to Crypt? Seems better.

[Volt]

I think Morning Tide is about to become a popular sideboard choice.