I'd like having the Tomb in my SB, more than I think I'd like Minion, because it is also a mana source.
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Ghost ridin' the whip like we invented that shit.
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Another option is Exalted Angel, as bad as it sounds, it's about as fast as a Tomb of Urami, it can out race aggro with the Lifelink and the deck can turn into aggro-control after the other threats are exhausted or after the top deck.Originally Posted by outsideangel
I'm certain Wastedlife is going to shit a brick over that proposal
Why would you need to outrace agro unless you kept an ass awful hand?
It's a full turn slower then Tomb. It's mana cost is obscene, it's a late-late game card, and if you're havn't beat agro by then, you've probably already lost. It's one advantage is not dying to Deed/EE/Punishment/Powder Keg.
What type of control can this deck play? You don't maindeck Chant, and as far as I know, you have no control options.
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Storm Boards
I am curious, why are you playing with living wish instead of the original? Minion of wastes seems awful since empty for 16 guys or tendrils for fatal seems like a far superior plan.
Why are you playing both wishes? It seems like your board is being to stretched, and your mana base seems like it won't be able to take it.
Last edited by calosso; 04-19-2007 at 08:34 PM. Reason: dumb
Access to Dark Confidants game one, increasing the number of Dark Confidants game two, recurring Xantid Swarm after Swords to Plowshares, casting Minion of the Wastes to circumvent Stifle and Engineered Explosives as well as other storm based hate, access to Tomb of Urami and SB bombs like Magus of the Jar.
Edit: It also increases the deck's access to tutor based removal
There's been no changes to the SB plans against the top three decks, so having two Wish boards doesn't seem to be a serious issue, and I use Simian Spirit Guide instead of Right of Flame, so the mana is smoother.
Living Wish is for winning small.
P.S. Exalted Angel was a joke.
A few posts back you (breathweapon) said you needed 8 mana for a ill-gotten gains chain. That's not always true, if you have 7 of which 5 is created by LED plus dark ritual, you can combo with IGG+infernal tutor too.
something like:
tap 2 land,play brainstorm, play lotus petal, play dark ritual, LED, infernal, sac LED, search for IGG and play IGG, return ritual, LED and tutor play them, search for Tendrils for 20.
I'm sure most of you already saw this but just to note.
I can see Tombstalker in the SB instead of Angel...
Tombstaker has a reduced cost and is evasive...
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I'd suggest that any further discussion on the living wish build be made in another thread. You are talking about some significant changes to your mana base, and an entirely new sideboard.
On that note, I think burning wish is really what makes this deck insane, in conjunction with LED, and that it can fetch any relevant and powerful spell you need, I don't really see the logic in adding another tutor that doesn't even shore up to that power level. Add in that burning wish is accelerated by the best secondary color accelerants available.
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There's nothing all that significant about the changes, that's the thing, I haven't had a single SB plan against a match up that has been affected via Living Wish taking up SB slots, and I feel that Living Wish offers the deck a lot of things Infernal Tutor and Burning Wish don't; casting Xantid Swarm again after a Swords to Plowshares, casting Dark Confidant and tutoring for Tomb of Urami are good enough in most cases against aggro-control, and Minion of the Wastes, Magus of the Jar and Harmonic Sliver are all still options at the deck's disposal. The card doesn't have to be more powerful than Burning Wish, in order to be good, and I'm not even certain it's less powerful than Burning Wish, it's just powerful on a different scale.
I'm not advocating that Living Wish should or shouldn't be included in the deck, I'm advocating that the card is a serious option for people who are open minded enough to see its potential.
Simian Spirit is and isn't a significant change to the manabase, I use them in the Living Wish version because I just can't pilot this deck with out "counter target Daze" at this point.
Following the 7 to 9 rule, Simian Spirit Guide and 3 Empty the Warrens makes a lot of sense, take the build on the front page with the following changes, -1 Tendrils of Agony, +1 Empty the Warrens, -4 Right of Flame, +4 Simian Spirit Guide.
At this point SSG starts to make sense on the 7 to 9 principle
3 Empty the Warrens
4 Xantid Swarm
7 outs to counters.
3 Empty the Warrens
4 Burning Wish
7 alternate win conditions
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Burning Wish
8 cards that bait Force of Will
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Simian Spirit Guide
8 anti-counters, one for Force of Will and one for Daze.
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
8 Tutors
4 Plunge into Darkness
4 Brainstorm
8 Search
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
8 sources of BB+
4 Lotus Petal
4 Simian Spirit Guide
8 sources of 0 for R
4 Chrome Mox
11 Land
15 permanent mana sources
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
3 slots that don't abide by the 7 to 9 rule
There is a thought process behind the card, and I don't think it's all that radical to suggest Simian Spirit Guide as a change to the manabase when the card is an analog to Right of Flame.
TES has a superior access to 3 colors with SSG on the first two turns and superior access to 2 colors after a Diminishing Returns, and considering I win more games with Diminishing Returns and Empty the Warrens than Wastedlife, the greater distribution of mana is more important to me than the storm and chances of extra mana.
It's important to remember, all I care about is beating U/g/w Threshold.
If that's what you're trying to accomplish by running Living Wish, wouldn't Orim's Chant or even Defense Grid be better options?
I feel that Living Wish dilutes the fundamental concept of the deck, which is to win fast. You can't afford to be reactive; you want to combo out and win. Simply put, nothing that you are getting with Living Wish is fast enough or relevant enough to further this deck's strategy. I think you'd have more success with a deck like Salvager if you're dead set on using Living Wish.
No, that's the reason I use Simian Spirit Guide instead of Right of Flame, I can counter Daze and cast Burning Wish for Diminishing Returns on turn two.
Living Wish is just an experiment, people will either love it or hate it after using it.
Comboing out Living Wish is dead. Period. You could argue that you could get Tomb, but Burning wish would fetch Empty for more tokens that are not vulnerable to the single most common removal spell in the entire format. Nothing else you can find becomes relevant during the combo. Burning Wish is almost always relevant, since it finds Igg and Returns, your best combo enablers, and Tendrils and Warrens, your best wincons.
And Simian Spirit Guide is almost strictly WORSE than Rite of Flame. It CANNOT provide more mana than Rite. It CANNOT be Igg'd. It CANNOT be returned via Returns and slightly ups the odds of losing more important cards to returns. It DOES NOT add to Threshold for Cabal Ritual. What does it get in return? It cannot be countered. Like Rite under Xantid Swarm. Oh goody.
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We're done discussing Living Wish in this thread. Feel free to start a new thread about a Living Wish - based Storm Combo deck in N&D, but it should not continue in the LMF.
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Threshold is irrelevant, it's not something the deck attempts to achieve so much as it's something the deck gains as the game progresses past the third turn. Storm is irrelevant, because if the deck has the mana for the Ill Gotten Gains chain it has the storm as well, and it can just tutor for Warrens instead of Tendrils at the end of the chain if it is relevant. RFGing is irrelevant, the statistical odds aren't significant after a Diminishing Returns, difficult to calculate, can't be calculated with out assumptions and I've noticed no difference in actual game play.
No, I can't recur Right of Flame in an IGG chain, but a Right of Flame can't counter a Daze either.
Right of Flame produces more mana than SSG in multiples, while SSG produces more mana than Right of Flame after Diminishing Returns, 0 for R, when the deck can't float red mana, which is a common occurrence when the deck uses Diminishing Returns aggressively.
I've won more games using Simian Spirit Guide to counter Daze on Xantid Swarm than I care to recall, that alone doesn't make the card "strictly inferior."
BreathWeapon, I dare to ask, but are you testing against ANYTHING other than U/G/w Thresh? By your comments I'd assume not, which is a very scary thought.
First things first, in all cases EXCEPT daze, force spike or mana tithe, do we agree that Rite of Flame is an overall better mana producer?
Let's consider some facts and some possibilities
1) Of the metagame decks, Thresh is the ONLY one that runs any of the "pay" counters.
2) You may not even run into Thresh in your entire day of playing.
3) Even if you do run into Thresh, for SSG to be most useful, you have to use it reactively which is something you've even stated yourself that you do not want to be. (read: SSG is much more reactive than Rite)
4) Also - even if you do run into Thresh, there will be plenty of times that either they'll have Daze and you won't have SSG, or you'll have SSG and they won't have Daze. Alot of Thresh builds only run 3x Daze so either of these scenarios are VERY likely.
Basically, the times when SSG would be more useful than Rite of Flame are so few and far between that I'm not willing to sacrifice the additional mana that Rite of Flame can provide. As I've said before, I've even gone to 4 Cabal Rituals because there have been plenty of times when I've said "If I just had that one extra mana".
I test against U/g/w, U/g/r, U/g/b, EBA, Faerie Stompy, AfFOWnity, Landstill and Aluren.BreathWeapon, I dare to ask, but are you testing against ANYTHING other than U/G/w Thresh? By your comments I'd assume not, which is a very scary thought.
First things first, in all cases EXCEPT daze, force spike or mana tithe, do we agree that Rite of Flame is an overall better mana producer?
Let's consider some facts and some possibilities
1) Of the metagame decks, Thresh is the ONLY one that runs any of the "pay
2) You may not even run into Thresh in your entire day of playing.
3) Even if you do run into Thresh, for SSG to be most useful, you have to use it reactively which is something you've even stated yourself that you do not want to be. (read: SSG is much more reactive than Rite)
4) Also - even if you do run into Thresh, there will be plenty of times that either they'll have Daze and you won't have SSG, or you'll have SSG and they won't have Daze. Alot of Thresh builds only run 3x Daze so either of these scenarios are VERY likely.
Basically, the times when SSG would be more useful than Rite of Flame are so few and far between that I'm not willing to sacrifice the additional mana that Rite of Flame can provide. As I've said before, I've even gone to 4 Cabal Rituals because there have been plenty of times when I've said "If I just had that one extra mana".
No, I don't agree that Rite of Flame is superior to Simian Spirit Guide in all cases other than Daze and Disrupt, High Tide has a SB (1) counter to.
1) Threshold is the most predominant aggro-control deck and High Tide is the most predominant combo-control deck, pre-boarding for Threshold and High Tide with Xantid Swarm is done on a regular basis, Simian Spirit Guide is just taking it one step further.
2) Then I won the tournament.
3) I meant not answering the opponent's hate with tutors and instead tutoring for an alternate threat to disregard the hate, Simian Spirit Guide has nothing to do with this.
4) There will be a lot of times when I have Xantid Swarm and the opponent doesn't have Force of Will, or when the opponent has Force of Will and I don't have Xantid Swarm; am I suppose to judge the merit of a card based on not drawing it or the opponent not drawing the card it was included for?
The reason people think that Right of Flame is a better mana producer than Simian Spirit Guide in this deck is because they're comparing them side by side on paper instead of comparing them after testing both of them in the deck.
If there is no Swarm in hand, I go for turn one Warrens, which requires more 0 for R mana sources in order to be a consistent play and resistant to Force of Will. If there is a Swarm in hand, and that Swarm is countered or killed, then instead of Wish for Warrens or Plunge for Xantid or Warrens, I go for Infernal for Returns or Wish for Returns with at most a black and maybe a blue mana floating; this is where Right of Flame is dead, Simian Spirit Guide is live and it can add R to the mana pool or protect a ritual from Daze, the odds of which are 80% plus if the opponent didn't draw it in his first 7 cards and drew a new 7 cards off of Returns.
I do not expect to win with Ill Gotten Gains against aggro-control ever, and I do not expect to win with Tendrils of Agony against aggro-control ever. I prepare for the worst case scenarios such as getting the Xantid Swarm Dazed, getting the Xantid Swarm Force of Willed, getting the Xantid Swarm killed and then ask three questions, how do I win around Stifle, how do I win before the opponent casts Meddling Mage or Null Rod and is Empty the Warrens resistant to Force of Will? The answer to the fist and second questions is to Diminishing Returns now, gaining red mana off of Simian Spirit Guide, and the answer to the third question is to cast Dark Ritual, cast a Chrome Mox/Lotus Petal, have the opponent Force of Will it, and then use Simian Spirit Guide to generate the red mana and cast Empty the Warrens or have the opponent Force of Will the Dark Ritual, and then I cast Empty the Warrens the next turn.
So, Simian Spirit Guide is a better mana source in the first two turns of the game while Right of Flame is a better mana source after that or if it manages to draw multiples and the opponent has no defense against it. I am way, way more aggressive with this deck than Wastedlife is, because I have to deal with people who use 4 Daze MD Stifle and SB Null Rod, and I am not waiting around for the last two of those three to GG me.
Easier access to R mana is also a big deal against Trinisphere and Chalice of the Void at one, Right of Flame is worthless there, and Simian Spirit Guide is adding a mana under Trinisphere for Shattering Spree or adding another red mana to destroy Chalice of the Void.
Simian Spirit Guide can't be Duressed either, which has saved my ass by allowing me to Brainstorm the Empty the Warrens back on top of the deck, and in desperate situations he's a 2/2 the cleans up after an Empty the Warrens or Tendrils of Agony falls short, which has also saved my ass after a Swords to Plowshares on a Werebear.
Believe me, I have spent a lot of time with the card, I'm not judging it based on speculation.
I like 1-2 simian, but it really hurts your storm count if you have multiples, which in turn makes it that much harder to win turn 1-2, so I don't think you're right when you say "x is better than x turns x-x." In nearly every case, it's going to be situation-dependent. With that in mind, do you use the one that has the higher power level or the lower? You can't argue that simian has a higher power level, as it doesn't add storm, and it has no possibility for adding more than one mana.
As a metagame choice, Simian isn't bad. In the end your ETWs will be weaker, and you'll have a rougher time getting lethal storm for tendrils.
Here's a quick puzzle, if anyone cares to solve it. It's not that hard, but takes a little thought.
You're on the draw G1, and your opponents first turn is Wasteland-Aether Vial.
Diminishing Returns
Chrome Mox
Dark Ritual
Dark Ritual
Chrome Mox
Infernal Tutor
Empty the Warrens
Tendrils of Agony
What's the play?
Edit: you CAN go off this turn!
I shouldn't play Dark Ritual combo. Ever.
YOU'RE GIVING ME A TIME MACHINE IN ORDER TO TREAT MY SLEEP DISORDER.
Mox imprinting Tendrils
Tap, Play Ritual
Play Infernal Tutor, Fetching Warrens
play Mox Imprinting Warrens
Cast Dark Ritual
Tap Mox for Red, Cast Empty the Warrens for 12 Tokens.
Yes, Right of Flame vs Simian Spirit Guide is situations dependent, but Simian Spirit Guide shines in the first two turns of the game, while Right of Flame shines as the game progresses and multiples are drawn.
If more people were around for post-restriction Burning Long and Steve's Draw7 combo deck, I don't think people would doubt how good a Spirit Guide is in a combo deck that uses a Draw7. Just when the deck had Fastbond and Crop Rotation Elvish Spirit Guide was a great card, with Burning Wish and Empty the Warrens Simian Spirit Guide is an amazing card.
One of the lessons I learned a long time ago is that storm just comes, I haven't cast an Empty the Warrens for less than three ever, and that's good enough for me against aggro-control and control.
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