[Discussion] Hulk Flash

[Fuzzy]

I don't liked the Hulk combo, but Flash + Gamekeeper = Legacys Oath! Flash + Rector = Trix! It's really nice!

[Tacosnape]

Many times you have a useless Summoner's Pact in your hand, so I need at least one of ESG or Street.

You're going to spend two deck slots to execute minimal effects just so one of your strongest combo tutors isn't dead? Boggle.

Keep the Guide if you have to keep something. Street Wraith is a waste of a slot. The Guide at least allows you the occasional turn 0 win.

[Minosse]

You're going to spend two deck slots to execute minimal effects just so one of your strongest combo tutors isn't dead? Boggle.

Keep the Guide if you have to keep something. Street Wraith is a waste of a slot. The Guide at least allows you the occasional turn 0 win.

First try the deck, then talk...

ESG and Street are 2 good cards in this deck if you draw them.
By also being creatures I can tutor them with Pact if I already saw a Protean (something that in my tests happens more than I suspected).

[Meeee]

Here are two rulings from wizards on Flash that seem to imply that the combo might not work.

10/4/2004 You choose the creature card, optionally pay its mana cost, then put it into play if you paid the cost or into the graveyard if you didn't. All this happens during the resolution.
10/4/2004 The "If you don't" text applies to the choice to pay (second sentence) and not to the putting of the card into play (third sentence).

Not sure how exactly to interpret since the oracle text seems to allow the combo.

Also Starcity has a different oracle text for the card which the combo would not work for. Not sure which site is wrong normally I’d go with wizards for the ruling but it could be a mistake in there oracle text.

Starcity
Oracle text: Choose a creature card in your hand. You may pay its mana cost reduced by up to 2. If you do, put that card into play. If you don’t, put that card into your graveyard.

[Minosse]

...

1. Ravager builds suffer from Pithing Needle (split second cards and others)
2. The fact that with 8 artifact creatures you will kill with 3 Disciple can be done in both decks
3. Cabal Therapy is a good card, but:

a) the deck would become 2 colors, and the fact that the deck is mono blue is really good (no Waste, i play cards in resp to Rishadan activation)
b) With 8 FoW maybe we already have enough protection
c) So that we can go with creatures that kill themselves when they comes into play, without passing priority

4. Show and Tell:

a) costs 3,
b) let the opponent do something dangerous,
c) it's a sorcery
d) we have plenty of tutors

[Minosse]

I don't liked the Hulk combo, but Flash + Gamekeeper = Legacys Oath! Flash + Rector = Trix! It's really nice!

Hulk combo is really good, but maybe there could be another combo decks that cuts the Pacts for a slower win (or that can insta-win with Rector or Gamekeeper, but I can't think of anything...)

...

It's a few days (I don't know exactly how many) that the Oracle text has changed, so something of 10/04/2004 does not help much nowadays...

In other forums they are all saying that now it works like said...








Now I'm thinking of what are the best cards for hating this deck (that has a bounce MD and tutors, but we can't use tutors for everything :P)

Any ideas?

Leyline of the Void
Meddling Mage
Chalice of the Void (zero?)
...

[Tacosnape]

First try the deck, then talk...

Don't be a jackass and complain that nobody's posting ideas about your deck and then bitch when people do so.

[Meeee]

While Pithing Needle on ravager is definitely a problem, spilt second does not stop the combo(excepting angels grace and trickbind if they counter the hulk trigger) because you get ravager 4 disciples and 6 free creatures immediately sac the mall if they split second a disciple or ravager big whoop all the life loss triggers are on the stack. You don’t have to pass priority until you've already got the win on the stack. P. Needle is the big problem for this win condition although 1 atog and 1 ravager can be gotten as a work around.

The earlier comment about including brainstorm definitely seems warranted; it’s probably still the best blue card out there so why no run it in this basically mono blue deck.

Show Tell has the advantage of possibly making the deck more consistent and gives you a way besides bounce to deal with mage on flash.

[Minosse]

Don't be a jackass and complain that nobody's posting ideas about your deck and then bitch when people do so.

I was a bit rude, sorry.

You talked like it was a really stupid idea to have that 2 cards MD, but it really isn't...

...

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think that you put the creatures into play,
then you have priority and you activate ONCE the ravager and pass priority,
opponent Sudden Shock the Ravager... (Ok, I know that no one plays Sudden Shock :P)

Show and Tell doesn't sacrifice Protean, so it's way worse then Flash...



Anyway, another version of the deck that I'm trying:

// Lands 16
7 [OD] Island
1 [R] Underground Sea
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Flooded Strand

// Creatures 16
4 [SH] Shifting Wall
3 [VI] Phyrexian Marauder
4 [MR] Disciple of the Vault
4 [DIS] Protean Hulk
1 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide

// Spells 28
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [FUT] Pact of Negation
4 [FUT] Summoner's Pact
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [MI] Mystical Tutor
4 [MI] Flash
1 [ON] Chain of Vapor
3 [AL] Force of Will


More:

(basic) lands = less screwed
7 artifact creatures = win with 3 Disciples


Less:

4 Gemstone Caverns: We don't really need a turn 0 win
1 Street Wraith: I'll Pact for ESG...
2 Merchant Scroll: it's a sorcery and it can not search for Summoner's Pact
1 FoW: 7 FoW are enough in a lot of match-ups

I did not want to cut Merchants...
Now I'm testing if it is better to have 2 Merchant or 2 lands...

It seems that the deck is a bit slower (wins on turn 2 :P) but flizzes less...





P.S. There are people suggesting to use Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker as a solution for hands with 2 Disciple, but I don't like a lot the idea, I would prefer to play a Disciple and going off (in response to opponent StP) with 3 Disciple...

[Meeee]

Your allowed to sac something to ravager and in response sac something else and essentially sac everything without passing priority, it is typically the worse way to do it cause they only need to burn ravager for one to kill him since all the +1/+1 counters are on the stack, but we don't care about ravager at all so its irrelevant.

Why not try personal tutor sure it’s a slow mystical but so is merchant scroll in a different way.

[Cait_Sith]

Rules confusion

Sometimes (always? most of the time?) outdated rulings are left on after an errata. If you look up Humility you see two different explanations about how it interacts with Opalescence.

Edit: Note one of the 4 rulings explains the "if you don't" text. At current wording it HAS no "if you don't" text.

[Minosse]

Your allowed to sac something to ravager and in response sac something else and essentially sac everything without passing priority, it is typically the worse way to do it cause they only need to burn ravager for one to kill him since all the +1/+1 counters are on the stack, but we don't care about ravager at all so its irrelevant.

Why not try personal tutor sure it’s a slow mystical but so is merchant scroll in a different way.

You are wrong.
Each time that you use the ability you pass priority...
And you can not use the ability in response to a Split Second card...

[Cait_Sith]

You are wrong.
Each time that you use the ability you pass priority...
And you can not use the ability in response to a Split Second card...

The first part is wrong. You pass priority for the RESOLUTION of an ability. You DO NOT have to pass priority until you want to. You can play any spell or ability, then just keep playing spells or abilities on top of it. Once you want stuff to start resolving, THEN you must begin to pass priority.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Your allowed to sac something to ravager and in response sac something else and essentially sac everything without passing priority, it is typically the worse way to do it cause they only need to burn ravager for one to kill him since all the +1/+1 counters are on the stack, but we don't care about ravager at all so its irrelevant.

Why not try personal tutor sure it’s a slow mystical but so is merchant scroll in a different way.

Personal Tutor is a sorcery and it grabs sorceries. This deck is aiming for instant speed and contains no sorceries to tutor for.

[C-Aleric]

Hey guys. I saw this, and giggled a little. And wrote up a quick list to try out.

// Lands
6 Island
1 Underground Sea
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta

// Creatures
4 Disciple of the Vault
3 Ornithopter
4 Shield Sphere
3 Street Wraith
3 Protean Hulk
1 Carrion Feeder
1 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Arcbound Ravager

// Spells
4 Flash
3 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Lotus Petal
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Pact of Negation

Influenced by all comments, this is the direction I chose to take the deck. I only play two sac outlets, which could become an issue, but, I run different ones, all of which come into play with 4 Disciples. Ravager or Feeder. Either get fat, incase they don't die, and both allow for instant speed goodness. This deck has some powerful plays. Very broken, to say the least.

So far, I've had two games where I've mulled to 4 cards, and managed to win on turn 1. Like that's fair. Assuming Flash and Hulk really work this way, this is very very absurd.

[Opterown]

I don't think you can search up Street Wraith with Summoner's pact, because it says: Search your library for a green creature card
Correct me if I'm wrong, but is it only there for the Pact?

EDIT: This is for everyone too. Street Wraith should not be a 1-of

[C-Aleric]

Whoops. Teach me for thinking the deck was a little more broken than it is. Sigh. I hate turn two wins. I removed the edit. No need for wrongness.

Thanks Opterown

[Lemuria]

Note on the Flash card rules:

04/10/2004 You choose the creature card, optionally pay its mana cost, then put it into play IF YOU PAID THE COST or INTO THE GRAVEYARD IF YOU DIDN'T. All this happens during the resolution.

Does the protean's habillity really triggers? Because it seems to me he doesen't come to play at all if you don't pay the cost.

[Zilla]

Does the protean's habillity really triggers? Because it seems to me he doesen't come to play at all if you don't pay the cost.

They recently changed the errata on the card. His ability really triggers.

[Lemuria]

look what I found:

From the Official Ravnica FAQ:


Flash Conscription
If white mana was paid, the player who controls the creature when it deals combat damage will be the one who gains life.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Q: If you Flash in a Sundering Titan, would the Titan's come into play ability trigger? Would its leaves play ability trigger, supposing you don't pay the mana differential?

A: Flash has been given errata so the chosen creature will not enter play at all if you do not pay the difference in its mana cost. So if you choose Sundering Titan, its coming into play ability will only trigger if you do pay the mana cost of the Titan, minus 2. If you do not, it won't enter play at all.


you can find this faq in here: http://www.starcitygames.com/pages/j...keywords=Flash