[Deck] Belcher

[Meister_Kai]

Would a sideboard of:

(list)
-1 Duress
-1 REB
-1 Shattering Spree
-1 Pyroclasm

+4 Leyline of the void

be seen as acceptable?

[kicks_422]

Having only 11 "win" cards in the deck (4 Belcher, 4 Burning Wish, 3 EtW), with the rest of the deck as mana, makes me draw too much mana and just wishing to topdeck a win card. Which is bad.

This is what I'm running. Contrary to what most say, Infernal Tutor is (IMHO) just needed in the deck where getting hellbent is as easy as winning with Flash.

1 Bayou
1 Taiga
4 Land Grant
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

4 Tinder Wall
4 Wild Cantor
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide

3 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish

4 Goblin Charbelcher
3 Empty the Warrens

Sideboard
4 Shattering Spree
4 Pyroblast (maybe Xantid Swarm is better here?)
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Pyroclasm
1 Cave-In
1 Simplify
1 Duress
1 Hull Breach

I've cut the Seething Songs because getting to 5 mana is a lot less important than getting to 3-4. I've been trying this out and have been getting great results.

[aTn]

Having only 11 "win" cards in the deck (4 Belcher, 4 Burning Wish, 3 EtW), with the rest of the deck as mana, makes me draw too much mana and just wishing to topdeck a win card. Which is bad.

Mmm... math is not in favor of your claim (see post #319 by Insomniaque on the 'old' Belcher thread http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showp...postcount=319). As was said before, 11 win conditions is enough.

They should have called this deck mulligan.dec. A lot of the skill of playing it resides in choosing which hands are good/bad according to your match-up.

As anyone thought of Tremor as a possible SB choice for the mirror or against other EtW decks ? Someone at my local shop played it as a SB card in Goblins (because there were a lot of EtW decks around); he told me he enjoyed winning games seeing his overconfidant opponent lay down 12 tokens and pass turn one only to let him go Bloodstained Mire -> Mountain, (pause) Tremor.

Theoretically, (post Future Sight) Hulk-Flash's best winning play is faster than Belcher's, but in practice, HF seems more prone to bad hand syndrome (for example, having to Brainstorm to put Disciples on top of library, no-kill hands, etc.). Is it just me or has anyone noticed this from testing ?

[Tacosnape]

Tacosnape's stupid idea of the day:

Has anyone thought about something ridiculous like Quagnoth in the board against blue-based aggro control decks packing heavy countermagic and Pithing Needle?

[kicks_422]

Mmm... math is not in favor of your claim (see post #319 by Insomniaque on the 'old' Belcher thread http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showp...postcount=319). As was said before, 11 win conditions is enough.

They should have called this deck mulligan.dec. A lot of the skill of playing it resides in choosing which hands are good/bad according to your match-up.

That's some good math there... But then again, most of the times (when it matters), you need 2-3 win conditions in hand. Would 14 ensure that?

[Jaynel]

4 Pyroblast (maybe Xantid Swarm is better here?)

I'm also debating this point. My thoughts:

Xantid requires you to burn up a mana source (unless you have a Land Grant) if you want to play it turn 1. This sets you back at least 1 turn if you want protection, maybe more if you need to draw into something to replace the acceleration that you used up. However, Xantid would require U/W/x decks to keep in Swords to Plowshares, which is a dead card against a majority of the deck. Xantid also maintains protection over a few turns, not a one-shot deal like Pyroblast/REB.

Pyroblast/REB lets you go off turn 1; you only have to keep an extra R floating (not that big of a deal usually). Red mana is also much easier to access than green. However, Pyroblast is pretty bad against multiple counters (that's where Xantid Swarm shines). Pyroblast does take out Meddling Mages chanting Burning Wish or Empty the Warrens.

I think Pyroblast is better. This deck loves to go big on turns 1-3 before cantrips can find countermagic or other answers. Pyroblast is also able to answer Meddling Mage, Echoing Truth, or other hindrances.

[Zilla]

That's some good math there... But then again, most of the times (when it matters), you need 2-3 win conditions in hand. Would 14 ensure that?

Weird. I typically mull hands with 2-3 win conditions in them.

[kicks_422]

Weird. I typically mull hands with 2-3 win conditions in them.

Even against aggro-control? Having them counter a Belcher then follow it up with an EtW has been very nice.

[Zilla]

Even against aggro-control? Having them counter a Belcher then follow it up with an EtW has been very nice.

Except that if I cast Belcher it probably means I used every other card in my hand to get enough mana to do it, at which point EtW is fucking awful. Why wouldn't you just cast EtW in the first place?

[kicks_422]

True. I might have to rethink my rambling.

I was thinking of adding more resiliency to a deck that anchors its whole strategy on explosiveness. My bad.

[Tacosnape]

Side note, after goldfishing a few hands with a build of this, wouldn't Pyroblast be far better than REB here, due to the fact that after a Seething Song you can Pyroblast anything, including your own Taiga, to up your ETW Storm Count if they don't have a Mage or mana for a Stifle?

[bruno_tiete]

Side note, after goldfishing a few hands with a build of this, wouldn't Pyroblast be far better than REB here, due to the fact that after a Seething Song you can Pyroblast anything, including your own Taiga, to up your ETW Storm Count if they don't have a Mage or mana for a Stifle?

That's exactly what I would point. Pyro is +1 storm if needed be. Even in a split, if you think it's really needed to be paranoid about Meddling Mages, i think you should get more REBs than Pyros.

Other then that, I believe pyro is superior to Xantid Swarn for a couple reasons:
1- it allows you to go off now. You dont have to wait an pray for mercy on you swarn;
2- it destroys landed MMs;
3- it counters Echoing Truths, which spells LOL on your 36 goblin tokens;
4- it can be cast off of Simian Spirit Guide for that cool RED FORCE! play. Yeah, yeah. I have heard of the "danger of cool plays", but Forcing your opponent in a RG deck is actually good. Not only for WTF effect;
5- Pyros get double duty as HF hate, where Xantid are Counter-counter-measure only.

I actually think it could be good to run Maindeck Pyros.
I guess I will cut Black out and go for a RG version. Need to get wishes, though.

[seymourws]

Hey, this is Chris Trembley from the RIT crew. I've been wondering why this build of Belcher doesn't run +1 Badlands in place of the Bayou. There are far more red spells that you want to cast than there are green spells, the majority of the time. The only spell that is really hurt in this configuration is Tinder Wall, which is a 3 of already. How often is Land Grant ever hard-cast, very rare to never, I would think.

Badlands have the added bonus of being a mountain, so for belcher activations assuming opponent is at 20 life, would only have to reveal 10 cards to be guarenteed the win.

Badlands seems like a fine idea when all of the cards that get boarded in are Red. Reb/Pyro's and Shattering Spree, since the others are wish targets.

Any thoughts?

[Happy Gilmore]

Hey, this is Chris Trembley from the RIT crew. I've been wondering why this build of Belcher doesn't run +1 Badlands in place of the Bayou. There are far more red spells that you want to cast than there are green spells, the majority of the time. The only spell that is really hurt in this configuration is Tinder Wall, which is a 3 of already. How often is Land Grant ever hard-cast, very rare to never, I would think.

Badlands have the added bonus of being a mountain, so for belcher activations assuming opponent is at 20 life, would only have to reveal 10 cards to be guarenteed the win.

Badlands seems like a fine idea when all of the cards that get boarded in are Red. Reb/Pyro's and Shattering Spree, since the others are wish targets.

Any thoughts?

Not fetchable with Land Grant, thats the only reason.

Oh, and welcome to the source!

[seymourws]

Yea, I just noticed, that. Haha, I feel pretty dumb, I guess I should read the cards in the deck. Thanks for pointing that out.

[Ewokslayer]

Badlands seems poor due to Land Grant. I realize you mention this as a problem but then you dismiss it as being never hard-cast.
I don't think that is what you meant to say. Land Grant is almost never Hard Cast, you almost always reveal your hand and pay the alternate cost. However, that doesn't change the fact that either way the spell is cast you can't search for a non-Forest Land. Thus you will never find a Badlands. That would actually effect the level of functionality of 11 of your cards for the worse (3 Tinder Walls, 4 Land Grants, 4 Dark Rituals). If you are that worried about hitting the Bayou in a Belcher activation that much just drop black from the deck and put in a second Tiaga.

[seymourws]

Hitting the bayou was never really a problem, I just forgot about how land grant works, I was thinking Badlands was tutorable, and there-fore strictly better than Bayou.

[mikekelley]

What does CRET mean? Seriously.

[MattH]

What does CRET mean? Seriously.

Charles' Rear Entry, pt. Two

[Jak]

Is there an RG list I could have a peaksy at. I plan on getting this deck, but just unsure of a build. Right now here is my RBG.

1 Bayou
1 Taiga
4 Land Grant

3 Empty the Warrens
4 Goblin Charbelcher

4 Burning Wish
4 Infernal Tutor

4 ESG
4 SSG
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Rite of Flame
4 Dark Ritual
4 Seething Song/Desperate Ritual/Cabal Ritual

3 Tinder Wall
4 Wild Cantor

I want to be sure I find my win conditions fast, so I think Infernal Tutor is needed. Now with the additional black cards, would Cabal Ritual be best to run? I can not decide between the 3 cards. Any help?