[OLD] UGw Threshold

[Bardo]

With all that Flash in the air, a lot of people are siding Leyline of the Void; how do you think this will affect Threshold ? In particular, do you think it would still be a good choice in the meta ?

Yes, the deck is still viable. Only IGGy runs Leyline maindeck; a lot of other decks will be running them but they still need to make room, have in one their opening draw (40%) and still have an otherwise keepable hand. So, the fear of Leyline is more on the order of Fear of the Big Bad Circle.

Bardo, what is you current post-FS UGW-Thresh list ? (Thanks in advance). Are Mongeese still relevant since they are, with Enforcer, the only Thresh dependent creatures in the deck ? (I'd say yes but I'd like to know your opinions). Are Mental Notes still relevant ? (Predict could replace them ?)

Post-FS, I'm not sure about my sideboard, but I don't intend any serious changes. It'll probably be much like my Columbus list:

“Grand Prix Threshold”
By Bardo

4 Serum Visions
4 Mental Note
4 Brainstorm

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Stifle

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Engineered Explosives

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
4 Meddling Mage
1 Mystic Enforcer

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

Sideboard
3 Armageddon
3 Hydroblast
3 Chill
3 Loaming Shaman
2 Krosan Grip
1 Mystic Enforcer

The maindeck Enforcer can probably come out for something else. Needle and CSpells became Stifle and another EE. Though Stifle has a lot of uses everywhere, even against FS where you can drop it on Kikki-Jikki, Safekeeper/Bodyguard or Carrion Feeder. Still it seems better just to stop their turn off their combo. Honestly I'm not sure which is the way to go.

Re: The Goose. I had the same concern about Mental Note with Tarmogoyf coming into the deck post-FS, but I can't tell how nutty Note is with the Goyf. Actually, I just did.

Turn 1: Delta, pass. EOT crack Delta for Island, Mental Note dredging EE and SV (draw a card).

Turn 2: Heath, crack for Forest, 4/5 Tarmogoyf.

Those plays are easy. In some weird ways, the Goyf is alot like Werebear but ramps up quicker and is doesn't need threshold to be a serious threat. I've won most of my games in the past few weeks with the Goyf with only 4-6 cards in my graveyard. So, assuming that Goyf has a place in the deck and that it has some crazy interactions with Mental Note; then I'd say Mongoose can stay too. He's good against almost everything.

But don't take my word for it. Test it for yourself and I think you'll see what I'm talking about.

[Bardo]

Note that the MTS software hates me and won't usually allow me to edit my posts after I submit them. Above, I meant "Needle," not Stifle when I was talking about KJ, Bodyguard, etc.

Mods - Feel free to merge the posts.

[aTn]

Thanks for the decklist. Like you, I have switched Needles for EE mainly because of the good number of Empty the Warren decks (Belcher, TES) in my area. They have also helped against Fish decks, which might gain popularity these days.

Does Armageddon need to occupy three slots in the sideboard ? Solidarity seems to be declining in numbers. Are board control decks like Landstill making a comeback and thus justifying the geddons ?

[Bardo]

Thanks for the decklist. Like you, I have switched Needles for EE mainly because of the good number of Empty the Warren decks (Belcher, TES) in my area. They have also helped against Fish decks, which might gain popularity these days.

EE is also worth its weight in gold vs. Chalice. That's another principle reason to increase the number of copies you're running.

Does Armageddon need to occupy three slots in the sideboard ? Solidarity seems to be declining in numbers. Are board control decks like Landstill making a comeback and thus justifying the geddons ?

Mostly they're for any kind of slow control deck, such as Landstill, Rifter, Tog, IBA decks as well as turn storm combo. But, hrm, maybe they're out-dated, but for something the size of the GP, I would keep them.

[Citrus-God]

I wont be going to Columbus, because my team refuses to play against Flash. So far, what I have is...


// Lands 17
4 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
4 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Forest
2 Island


// Creatures 12
4 Meddling Mage
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear


// Spells 31
4 Brainstorm
4 Portent
4 Mental Note
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Disrupt
3 Stifle
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Swords to Plowshares


// Sideboard 15
2 Krosan Grip
2 Swords to Plowshares
3 Counterbalance
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Armageddon
2 Mystic Enforcer
2 Disrupt


ehh.... I dont expect Goblins. Thats it. I dont expect a deck like Goblins to be at the GP. I expect only Flash and Flash-hate decks. For Hanni Fish, I lessened the number of Swords to Plowshares because their Meddling Mage usually ends up calling Swords to protect Confidant. EE is a bomb against them. I dont usually think they would call a 3-of. If they do call EE, then my Swords will Plow opposing Mages so EE becomes effective.

As for Flash, it seems I was mildly prepared for it. I tested Counterbalance, and I loved it agaisnt Flash. I dont think people knew what they were talking about when they say it's slow. When you build your deck to be full of 2cc cards, blind flips from Counterbalance can do so much for you. Besides, Mage enough time to set it up against them.

So far, the boarding plan against Flash is

-1 Forest
-1 Nimble Mongoose
-2 Swords to Plowshares
-3 Engineered Explosives

+3 Counterbalance
+2 Sensei's Divining Top
+2 Disrupt



Disrupt is amazing, but it's only good for the earlier part of the game. I might cut the 4th Disrupt for a 4th Counterbalance. Counterbalance is great because it protects itself by countering Mystical Tutors which finds bounce for Mage or Balance'. Counterbalance keeps them from recovering by creating a soft lock.

[Adan]

I think it's overkill, because you are already running 4 daze, so you got 6 (!!) Early-Game counters which just suck later and actually can only be pitched into a Force then.

Then there is the lack of Swords to Plowshares... everyone here says that StoP is the best removal, so why cutting them? EEs can't handle a 1st Turn Lackey and i think that's the point for me to run 4 StoP.

The rest of the build is acceptable. In my aggressive build which maindecks Jotun grunt I also began to run Stifle, because it can do (as HanniFish had shown) broken things and is never dead, because it can also do some tricks with Jotun Grunt.

[Citrus-God]

I think it's overkill, because you are already running 4 daze, so you got 6 (!!) Early-Game counters which just suck later and actually can only be pitched into a Force then.

Yeah, but against Hulk Flash, your going to need what you can get.

Then there is the lack of Swords to Plowshares... everyone here says that StoP is the best removal, so why cutting them? EEs can't handle a 1st Turn Lackey and i think that's the point for me to run 4 StoP.

I already explained my reasoning here.... Hanni Fish will call Swords to Plowshares against you. Only decks I said to expect would be Hulk Flash and Hulk Flash-hate decks.

The rest of the build is acceptable. In my aggressive build which maindecks Jotun grunt I also began to run Stifle, because it can do (as HanniFish had shown) broken things and is never dead, because it can also do some tricks with Jotun Grunt.

I might cut the Disrupt for them actually.

[Phantom]

I see that you think Thresh is still a solid choice, and I can't really disagree, but is there a reason to run it over, say, UWb fish? Black seems to give so much more than green, and not having Leyline destroy your clock seems extra relevant these days.

[Awesomator]

I see that you think Thresh is still a solid choice, and I can't really disagree, but is there a reason to run it over, say, UWb fish? Black seems to give so much more than green, and not having Leyline destroy your clock seems extra relevant these days.

Flash is a good matchup for thresh and leyline is not necessary. Most fish decks are weaker IMO because they try to run very few lands with very few cantrips to back them up.

[HPC]

What about sideboarding 4x Extract against the Kiki//Hulk Flash deck? I haven't seen the Kiki version as much as the Disciple, but don't most only run 1 copy of their combo card?

[Phantom]

Flash is a good matchup for thresh and leyline is not necessary. Most fish decks are weaker IMO because they try to run very few lands with very few cantrips to back them up.

I was talking about Leyline hurting Thresh, not running it themselves, but surely you would agree that having the option to run Leyline can't be a bad thing? I have been assured that it is a quality hate card against Flash.

I'm not sure I understand your last comment. I'm not talking about netdecking here. I would assume that each person would run the build they are comfortable with (for you that would apperently be a higher land and cantrip count).

Note that I'm not being a dick, I'm genuinely interested in the debate. I'm just having trouble seeing how 'goose and Werebear with Grip coming out of the board) are better options in the current meta than Duress and Confidant (with Therapy, Leyline, and Plague coming out of the board) especially with uncounterable graveyard hate on the rise.

Is it non-Flash matchups you favor Thresh for?

[Anarky87]

I've been favoring Fish over Thresh because I think it has just as good tools as Thresh and Confidant lets you rebuild after your counterwar with Flash.

Since Fish and Thresh usually run the same amount of lands, (17, some Thresh lists run 18 and I ran 18 lands in Fish before Flash) I don't see the weakness there. The difference is, as was stated, Thresh just runs more cantrips to find lands and Fish finds theirs through Visions, Brainstorm, and Bob, the latter of which is a continual fountain of threats.

I think either deck works well in the current meta to combat Flash, but I think Thresh will be hit harder by all the Lelines that are sure to be out and about.

[Citrus-God]

I see that you think Thresh is still a solid choice, and I can't really disagree, but is there a reason to run it over, say, UWb fish? Black seems to give so much more than green, and not having Leyline destroy your clock seems extra relevant these days.

Black is better than Green. The reason why Threshold was ran back then was solely because of Aggro. Now thats out of the way, Fish is just better. However, there are many variants of Fish I am still trying to crack.

[Awesomator]

I've been favoring Fish over Thresh because I think it has just as good tools as Thresh and Confidant lets you rebuild after your counterwar with Flash.

Since Fish and Thresh usually run the same amount of lands, (17, some Thresh lists run 18 and I ran 18 lands in Fish before Flash) I don't see the weakness there. The difference is, as was stated, Thresh just runs more cantrips to find lands and Fish finds theirs through Visions, Brainstorm, and Bob, the latter of which is a continual fountain of threats.

I think either deck works well in the current meta to combat Flash, but I think Thresh will be hit harder by all the Lelines that are sure to be out and about.

What I'm saying is since you run 17 lands, Thresh is much more capable of keeping a one land hand, Or recovering from LD. Flash is a good matchup for both decks. I feel more confidant that Thresh will remain more consistant throughout the 16 round tourney. Leyline is extremely solid vs Thresh which will be in the majority of decks. I WAS playing gobbos until this nonsense came up, now idk. I was playing netdecked and untuned builds of fish when it was tested and will look into it more. Leyline isn't necessary vs flash when playing fish, but it doesn't hurt, especially since it's good vs Thresh.

[Shriekmaw]

What I'm saying is since you run 17 lands, Thresh is much more capable of keeping a one land hand, Or recovering from LD. Flash is a good matchup for both decks. I feel more confidant that Thresh will remain more consistant throughout the 16 round tourney. Leyline is extremely solid vs Thresh which will be in the majority of decks. I WAS playing gobbos until this nonsense came up, now idk. I was playing netdecked and untuned builds of fish when it was tested and will look into it more. Leyline isn't necessary vs flash when playing fish, but it doesn't hurt, especially since it's good vs Thresh.

Everyone seems to be packing Leyline of the Void main deck or at least in the sideboard. Thats a reason why I think I would rather play Fish at this point to hate against Hulk Flash. It seems in testing that Fish is just better against Hulk Flash partly because you run stifle,meddling mage, and dark confidant is great at drawing more answers each turn.

It's unfortunate that Hulk Flash is going to warp the Legacy metagame for the GP. I'll be glad when the June 1st banned/restricted lists will come out and get rid of this deck once and for all.

[Citrus-God]

I know it's not suppose to belong here, but since every deck is going to pack Leyline, why not swap Bears and Geese for Dryads and Grunts?

[DEADMAN01]

Hello everyone, I am new to this site so take it easy on me! My concern is for the Grand Prix Columbus on Saturday May 19, 2007. I was very content with my Life from the Loam deck that completely destroyed aggro, and no problems against control match ups such as Thresh. But like always you test for weeks, and suddenly a new deck hits the format that draws everyones attention (HULK FLASH) and now my deck loses. I placed 9th at the Trial in Columbus on the 29th.

Well now i have switched to my 2nd favorite deck... THRESH G/W/U.
my build is as such:

4 Meddling Mage
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
1 Mystic Enforcer

4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Daze

4 Serium Visions
3 Predict
3 Mental Note
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Brainstorm

3 Windswept Heath
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Island

The deck has grat matchups V.S. Combo, and with a good board can handle the aggro match ups.... I HOPE!

So give me some thoughts and Ideas on the deck that should Conquor GP COLUMBUS!

[aTn]

If there is an increase in the number of SB Leylines, should one put more K. Grips in the SB (or maybe Naturalize or Ray of Revelation) ?

The deck has gr(e)at matchups V.S. Combo, and with a good board can handle the aggro match ups.... I HOPE!

Speaking of boards, what does yours look like ?

[Bardo]

@ Deadman - Looks pretty stock, though I'd see about getting that Daze to 4, probably -1 Counterspell. You might also consider just dropping all of the remaining CSpells and running Stifle instead. The 1-of Needle and EE aren't bad or good; but I'd make a judgement and go with 2 of one and none of the other.

My current list, which beats of Flash viciously:

"Hulk Slayer" aka White-Splash Threshold
by me

// Spells
4 Mental Note
4 Serum Visions
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Engineered Explosives

// Creatures
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Meddling Mage

// Lands
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Hydroblast
SB: 3 Armageddon
SB: 3 Chill
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Loaming Shaman
SB: 1 Mystic Enforcer
SB: 1 Pithing Needle

Those Goyfs should be Werebears for the GP, obviously.

[DEADMAN01]

@ Deadman - Looks pretty stock, though I'd see about getting that Daze to 4, probably -1 Counterspell. You might also consider just dropping all of the remaining CSpells and running Stifle instead. The 1-of Needle and EE aren't bad or good; but I'd make a judgement and go with 2 of one and none of the other.

ok for my understanding of the deck, considering i just picked it up 2-3 days ago, is that Daze is amazing early game, and eventually turns into the Pitch card for FOW.

you talked about a while ago that running MD counterspell was pointless due to the fact that when you cast it, you obviously winning anyways. I agree with you there

I like your build, but i think i will run cut 1 stifle for 1 enforcer, and how come you chose to not play predict? This card is amazing for thresh, for 1 it draws you 2 cards if you stack accordingly, and also if your opponents flash deck is running slow, and they tutor a flash/hulk to the top of library, why not predict them... now i know i seem to be concerned with the hulk deck, when in all reality i don't think it is that great..

What do you all think of Twincast vs TPS... copy the storm spell, win first or make more goblins than they did, comming out 2 ahead!

i do run sb hate for leyline, my SB is as follows:
3 BEB
3 Chill
3 Geddon
2 K-Grip
1 Enforcer
1 Pithing Needle
2 Twincast

any comments on this?