Tournament Results and the Impact of Hulk Flash

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I'll quote myself from the Wizards board, why not.

I find it amusing how so many people kicked up their feet and screamed that nothing could come off the Legacy banned list, because the cards were all too powerful, and then some of those same people are saying to give Flash a chance. Let's compare the cards on the Legacy banned list that weren't banned for non-power related reasons (physical dexterity and ante cards):

* Balance- Yeah, it's Wrath + Armageddon. However, why spend two mana in a weaker color trying to get a slight mana advantage and stabilize the board, when you can spend two mana in the best color in the game, at Instant speed, and win the game right there? Clearly less powerful than Flash.
* Bazaar of Baghdad- Not even close. A draw engine that needs the entire deck built around it and inherently slows your clock by taking a land drop and not producing mana.
* Black Vise- Are you kidding? This gives them multiple turns. Flash kills them immediately and has less outs like, oh, I don't know, mulliganing.
* Channel- Channel-Fireball costs more mana than Flash-Hulk, and in worse colors with less protection and dig. I suppose you could power out a Sundering Titan or Darksteel Colossus, and scoop to Swords to Plowshares, but that's a turn 3-4 win at best.
* Demonic Tutor- 1B, try to find a win, versus 1U, win the game.
* Dream Halls- Ha! Yeah, good luck resolving that.
* Earthcraft- 1U, win the game right now, vs. 2GGG, win the game next turn unless they have Sharpshooter. Hrm....
* Entomb- Oh no, they could have a first turn Akroma. Why, that's a turn 4 kill, that is.
* Fastbond- What does an extra land drop or two matter when winning costs 1U, again?
* Frantic Search- Arguably this would break Solidarity in half, but the problem is that Solidarity is still pretty much strictly worse than Flash. Maybe if they started running Stifle and Spell Snare. This one might be almost as good as Flash.
* Goblin Recruiter- Yeah, FCG's turn 3 combo out win that costs 3GR over two turns doesn't scare me as much as Flash. Not to mention that Flash never died to Wing Shards.
* Grim Monolith- Not even close.
* Gush- Two islands to your hand? You had time to drop two Islands?
* Hermit Druid- 1U, win the game vs. 1G, pass the turn, hope my 1/1 doesn't die before he can untap, mill my library, hope the opponent doesn't have StP. Or, y'know, Fog.
* Illusionary Mask- Three mana for a 12/12 that dies to StP or Disenchant, or two mana to win right now. Difficult choice.
* Imperial Seal- I guess this makes Flash slightly more broken.
* Land Tax- Ha!
* Library of Alexandria- You'd better not still have seven cards in hand if you're planning on winning.
* Mana Drain- If Counterspell weren't obsoletely slow, this might be a good card.
* Mana Vault- With any luck, you could first turn Chalice on 2.
* Memory Jar- It'd be broken in half... if you could actually play it fast enough for your opponent playing Flash to care. Or through your opponent playing anti-Flash who just Duresses or Forces it.
* Metalworker- 3 Mana 1/2 that might do something next turn < 2 Mana Instant that wins right now.
* Mind Over Matter- Ha!
* Mind Twist- Maybe you can actually stop Flash with this... and a handful of Moxen...
* Mind's Desire- What is this "six mana" of which you speak?
* Mishra's Workshop- Maybe you can resolve a Chalice for 2 early enough to matter with this.
* Mox Emerald- What good mana acceleration when you can win for the cost of a Wild Mongrel?
* Mox Jet- What good mana acceleration when you can win for the cost of a Hymn to Tourach?
* Mox Pearl- What good mana acceleration when you can win for the cost of a Disenchant?
* Mox Ruby- What good mana acceleration when you can win for the cost of a Goblin Piledriver?
* Mox Sapphire- What good mana acceleration when you can win for the cost of an Impulse?
* Necropotence- Why do you need to pass the turn? I guess it's a good fallback against all the discard decks trying to kill Flash.
* Oath of Druids- Yeah, a turn 3 6/6 Hastey guy is really scary when it's backed up by Force of Will and Duress. Not as scary as a turn 2 win backed up by Force of Will, Daze and Pact of Negation, but I guess you can't have everything.
* Replenish- HA!
* Skullclamp- Why are you playing creatures? Why are you paying mana to do things with them?
* Sol Ring- I suppose you can power out an early Sphere of Resistance with this. That might be pretty good. If they don't have ESG....
* Strip Mine- Winning the game costs two mana in this format, and disruption had better be one mana or free. Is this going to slow them down? Why isn't this an Underground Sea so you can Duress with Daze backup?
* Time Spiral- If you shaved this price down by a third, you could just go ahead and win. Instead of putting the win in their hand.
* Time Walk- It's like a free cantrip that empties the storm count. You know what combo deck could really, really use this, and loves it's 1U spells?
* Timetwister- No, I'm trying to be serious.
* Tinker- I suppose you could get a Nullstone Gargoyle with this. That might be pretty good. If they don't draw a Lotus Petal, I mean.
* Vampiric Tutor- I suppose this would make Flash-Hulk more insane, if such was possible.
* Wheel of Fortune- If you cut off one mana and switched that ugly red mana symbol for a nice Blue one... and then maybe change that ugly Sorcery line to Instant... and that clunky card drawing thing with just winning...
* Windfall- Yeah, good thinking, they might need help drawing into the combo.
* Worldgorger Dragon- I guess 1B sorcery-speed kills that are highly vulnerable to removal from every color, instead of simply blue-black, and leave you with no permanents when you fizzle the combo are too powerful?
* Yawgmoth's Bargain- Who has six mana?

For reference, here's the entire list of banned cards that I can think of plausible arguments for, as to why they're more powerful/format warping than Flash-Hulk:

* Ancestral Recall
* Black Lotus
* Demonic Consultation
* Mana Crypt
* Tolarian Academy
* Yawgmoth's Will

Obviously, this is an overly generous list. Black Lotus, for instance, probably isn't that powerful in relation, for the same reason I listed for the Moxen. Consultation is only an enabler, and doesn't have great synergy with what would clearly be the best deck in a format where Flash and Hulk remain legal.

[Slay]

I'll quote myself from the Wizards board, why not.

IBA's so cool, he doesn't even need to draw Protean Hulk to win with Flash. He just taps 2 mana and wins the game.
-Slay

[allaanon]

I'm a firm believer any of those cards could be unbanned, yes. So what if Gush is around... a few decks get stronger and everyone adapts. Right now lackey or ringleader could be banned and we would go on. With them we have a powerful deck that makes every deck account for it. However, they have made the decision to have lackey/ringleader and not gush... that is the format we are playing.

Right now they have chosen to let us play with Flash. Great! That's the format, let's play. As decks adapt to playing against it other decks will rise in power. When the decks that beat Hulk/Flash become more popular than Hulk/Flash itself then another deck will rise up that beats that deck and has a decent match vs. Hulk/Flash. Not a big deal... it's the way it has always been.

Ban flash, don't ban flash. Un-ban any of those cards or don't. Your choosing to play this game and in this format so start playing.

[thelfj]

I'll go even further. There's no "arguably fairer" about it.

Flash is far more distorting than Yawgmoth's Will. Period.

as a avid t1 player, this statement is ridiculous. lets see.l..meandeck tendrils with 4 lotus petals and 4 Leds...seems kinda ridiculous. how about old school long.dec with led + burningwish for yawg's will.. i think the fact that 4 leds are legal more then makes up for some of the missing broken cards if yawg's win was legal. there is a reason that some people (including Menendian) want it banned from t1.

in summary, flash is good. but it will never be more broken then yawg's win

[allaanon]

Ah, never mind. Let's just ban the thing and get back to our regularly scheduled program. Why can't they see this is the end of the world!

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

as a avid t1 player, this statement is ridiculous. lets see.l..meandeck tendrils with 4 lotus petals and 4 Leds...seems kinda ridiculous. how about old school long.dec with led + burningwish for yawg's will.. i think the fact that 4 leds are legal more then makes up for some of the missing broken cards if yawg's win was legal. there is a reason that some people (including Menendian) want it banned from t1.

in summary, flash is good. but it will never be more broken then yawg's win

In Legacy, Yawgmoth's Will is Ill-Gotten Gains with one mana shaved off. Iggy Pop gets a less amazing name, and that's about the only real difference.

[Guy I Don't Know]

I agree that hulk flash is rlly good.
But to be honest... Everyone is packing hate for it now... I mean maindeck leyline of the void and stifle... i think it will be a big percentage of the gp and i think it is the best combo deck if not hated against... but i think belcher is going to do better at the gp for two reason: if belcher goes first and combos off the opponent has to have force of will ... Hulk flash i don't think combos out as quickly as belcher and that exposes it to one mana and two mana hate cards not to mention that they can have leyline of the void.

[Brushwagg]

Ok I want to address somethings. A few people are talking about adjusting to Flash. What you really mean to say is it's warping the format, that every deck has to play hate for it or lose to it. Flash Hulk is alot worse then Goblins will ever be.

Hulk flash i don't think combos out as quickly as belcher and that exposes it to one mana and two mana hate cards not to mention that they can have leyline of the void.

Have you tested Flash/Hulk at all? Right now at least it's some what managable, but after Future Sight Flash/Hulk becomes very retarded. So much so that aggro WILL die in Legacy.

If Flash stays legal it's going to come down to 3-4 archtypes.

1.Flash/Hulk: The only deck to beat.

2.Some control deck. U/B with a ton of disruption and alomst no Board control, pretty much geared to beat Flash.

3.Some aggro deck (probably Goblins) that's beats the control deck, but loses to Flash/Hulk.

4.Maybe NQG or regular GRO with Dyrads.

[Guy I Don't Know]

Im talking prior to fs... I agree that afterwards it should be banned... they are basically pushing the deck onto us and i don't like it. I was referring more to the gp that is coming up about how it isn't as good as ppl think it is... At least in my opinion... and yes i have tested... not like 100+ but maybe 30+ and it is good, but i've been losing to belcher more because discard isn't as good going second.

[allaanon]

Ok I want to address somethings. A few people are talking about adjusting to Flash. What you really mean to say is it's warping the format, that every deck has to play hate for it or lose to it. Flash Hulk is alot worse then Goblins will ever be.

The format is always warped one way or another to fight the top tier decks. We've had a shift to fighting fast agro decks using agro-control with some pure control and some combo all playable.

Now our top deck will be combo and decks will have to readjust. Agro-control will still work... probably more so than ever, it will just have to adapt a few cards to combo instead of adapting them to agro like they did before. Things change, that is good.

Bad decks won't beat it. Shucks.

[Volt]

The format is always warped one way or another to fight the top tier decks. We've had a shift to fighting fast agro decks using agro-control with some pure control and some combo all playable.

Now our top deck will be combo and decks will have to readjust. Agro-control will still work... probably more so than ever, it will just have to adapt a few cards to combo instead of adapting them to agro like they did before. Things change, that is good.

Bad decks won't beat it. Shucks.

Wow, you're so cool. Nothing phases you. Completely busted combo deck that makes only 2 colors viable in the entire format? No biggie. You'll just "adapt." You're my hero.

Read this.

[Shriekmaw]

The format is always warped one way or another to fight the top tier decks. We've had a shift to fighting fast agro decks using agro-control with some pure control and some combo all playable.

Now our top deck will be combo and decks will have to readjust. Agro-control will still work... probably more so than ever, it will just have to adapt a few cards to combo instead of adapting them to agro like they did before. Things change, that is good.

Bad decks won't beat it. Shucks.

When you see one card in particular in at least every sideboard if not main deck in Leyline of the Void, I think that tells you something might be wrong in the format. It was like in type 2 when every deck ran skullclamp. That might be the warning light that something is wrong, and I believe the same thing can be said about Flash.

I love this game, thats why I travel around and play in all the different magic formats. I think it sucks when you attend a GP and you HAVE to play Hulk Flash or something that can beat it. Is that magic? I don't think so, and I know it is definitely not any fun.

[Phantom]

Bad decks won't beat it. Shucks.

Bad decks like Goblins, previously the best deck in the format. Seems logical.

[allaanon]

Goblins can beat flash. Old goblins not adapting cannot but why play in a format where you can just solitaire every game and not have to worry about what the field is playing. Adapt...

I have no clue where this 'only 2 colors are viable' thing is coming from. Take a look around, a lot of decks are adapting to beat hulk-flash in every color. But I'm sure if you say that another million times others will start to believe you. Maybe it's the only thing you can fight it with, who knows.

Your little link is nice, but who cares? The format has shifted. It will be here for less than a month and we'll go back to the format you like. They will ban this thing so why get upset about it? THIS IS STILL A GAME, AND YOU STILL CHOOSE TO PLAY IT.

[Volt]

Goblins can beat flash.

Um, no they can't. You think Leylines, Chalices, and red blasts are anywhere near enough? They aren't. Not. even. close.

I have no clue where this 'only 2 colors are viable' thing is coming from. Take a look around, a lot of decks are adapting to beat hulk-flash in every color.

Um, it's coming from everyone who has tested extensively with and against the deck. It's coming from me, and from a lot of other people who I regard a LOT more highly than I do you. You say decks are "adapting to beat hulk-flash in every color." That's a riot.

[allaanon]

I really don't care if you don't value my opinion or not. Luckily, neither of our opinions really matter in what they decide. In the end, this is the format we are both playing until they choose other wise. Might as well have some fun with it.

[BossOfTheGame]

I'm a firm believer any of those cards could be unbanned, yes. So what if Gush is around... a few decks get stronger and everyone adapts. Right now lackey or ringleader could be banned and we would go on. With them we have a powerful deck that makes every deck account for it. However, they have made the decision to have lackey/ringleader and not gush... that is the format we are playing.

Right now they have chosen to let us play with Flash. Great! That's the format, let's play. As decks adapt to playing against it other decks will rise in power. When the decks that beat Hulk/Flash become more popular than Hulk/Flash itself then another deck will rise up that beats that deck and has a decent match vs. Hulk/Flash. Not a big deal... it's the way it has always been.

Ban flash, don't ban flash. Un-ban any of those cards or don't. Your choosing to play this game and in this format so start playing.

The format cannot adapt to flash and be a fun format to play in. It comes down to a game of do you play flash or do you play hate. I didn't like it when it was only three decks that dominated the meta, but one deck is just bad for magic. Banning and Restricting cards is healthy for a format because if people keep playing optimized decks nothing interesting happens and magic becomes rock paper scissors. When you change something many new possibilities pop up and answers that wearn't there before are now.

THE POINT IS: It is a big deal if they don't ban flash.

[revenge_inc]

More results to update the first post with.
Legacy tournament in Toronto on Saturday May 12th:
29 people showed up. 3 or 4 played Hulk Flash and hate for it was everywhere. The top 4 prize split--two of them were Hulk Flash.

Top 4 was:

Slivers
UGR Thrash?
x2 Hulk Flash

5th-8th:
'Tog
Affinity
Belcher
EBA(cool list, so I will post it):

4 Dark Confidant
2 Exalted Angel
4 Meddling Mage
3 Phyrexian Negator
4 Brainstorm
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Chrome Mox
3 Flooded Strand
1 Island
1 Plains
3 Polluted Delta
3 Scrubland
1 Swamp
2 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

http://www.mtgontario.com/index.php?...r=asc&&start=0

EDIT: GPT results. 10 people showed up. One person played Flash--they did not Top 4. Slivers won.
http://www.mtgontario.com/index.php?...c&t=5882#85442

[Peter_Rotten]

In the end, this is the format we are both playing until they choose other wise. Might as well have some fun with it.

I think that this is a rather healthy attitude. I can't quite be as optimistic, but it is obvious that bitching about Hulk won't do a darn thing for the GP.

[andrew77]

Originally Posted by Me
I find it amusing how so many people kicked up their feet and screamed that nothing could come off the Legacy banned list, because the cards were all too powerful, and then some of those same people are saying to give Flash a chance. Let's compare the cards on the Legacy banned list that weren't banned for non-power related reasons (physical dexterity and ante cards):

* Balance- Yeah, it's Wrath + Armageddon. However, why spend two mana in a weaker color trying to get a slight mana advantage and stabilize the board, when you can spend two mana in the best color in the game, at Instant speed, and win the game right there? Clearly less powerful than Flash.
* Bazaar of Baghdad- Not even close. A draw engine that needs the entire deck built around it and inherently slows your clock by taking a land drop and not producing mana.
* Black Vise- Are you kidding? This gives them multiple turns. Flash kills them immediately and has less outs like, oh, I don't know, mulliganing.
* Channel- Channel-Fireball costs more mana than Flash-Hulk, and in worse colors with less protection and dig. I suppose you could power out a Sundering Titan or Darksteel Colossus, and scoop to Swords to Plowshares, but that's a turn 3-4 win at best.
* Demonic Tutor- 1B, try to find a win, versus 1U, win the game.
* Dream Halls- Ha! Yeah, good luck resolving that.
* Earthcraft- 1U, win the game right now, vs. 2GGG, win the game next turn unless they have Sharpshooter. Hrm....
* Entomb- Oh no, they could have a first turn Akroma. Why, that's a turn 4 kill, that is.
* Fastbond- What does an extra land drop or two matter when winning costs 1U, again?
* Frantic Search- Arguably this would break Solidarity in half, but the problem is that Solidarity is still pretty much strictly worse than Flash. Maybe if they started running Stifle and Spell Snare. This one might be almost as good as Flash.
* Goblin Recruiter- Yeah, FCG's turn 3 combo out win that costs 3GR over two turns doesn't scare me as much as Flash. Not to mention that Flash never died to Wing Shards.
* Grim Monolith- Not even close.
* Gush- Two islands to your hand? You had time to drop two Islands?
* Hermit Druid- 1U, win the game vs. 1G, pass the turn, hope my 1/1 doesn't die before he can untap, mill my library, hope the opponent doesn't have StP. Or, y'know, Fog.
* Illusionary Mask- Three mana for a 12/12 that dies to StP or Disenchant, or two mana to win right now. Difficult choice.
* Imperial Seal- I guess this makes Flash slightly more broken.
* Land Tax- Ha!
* Library of Alexandria- You'd better not still have seven cards in hand if you're planning on winning.
* Mana Drain- If Counterspell weren't obsoletely slow, this might be a good card.
* Mana Vault- With any luck, you could first turn Chalice on 2.
* Memory Jar- It'd be broken in half... if you could actually play it fast enough for your opponent playing Flash to care. Or through your opponent playing anti-Flash who just Duresses or Forces it.
* Metalworker- 3 Mana 1/2 that might do something next turn < 2 Mana Instant that wins right now.
* Mind Over Matter- Ha!
* Mind Twist- Maybe you can actually stop Flash with this... and a handful of Moxen...
* Mind's Desire- What is this "six mana" of which you speak?
* Mishra's Workshop- Maybe you can resolve a Chalice for 2 early enough to matter with this.
* Mox Emerald- What good mana acceleration when you can win for the cost of a Wild Mongrel?
* Mox Jet- What good mana acceleration when you can win for the cost of a Hymn to Tourach?
* Mox Pearl- What good mana acceleration when you can win for the cost of a Disenchant?
* Mox Ruby- What good mana acceleration when you can win for the cost of a Goblin Piledriver?
* Mox Sapphire- What good mana acceleration when you can win for the cost of an Impulse?
* Necropotence- Why do you need to pass the turn? I guess it's a good fallback against all the discard decks trying to kill Flash.
* Oath of Druids- Yeah, a turn 3 6/6 Hastey guy is really scary when it's backed up by Force of Will and Duress. Not as scary as a turn 2 win backed up by Force of Will, Daze and Pact of Negation, but I guess you can't have everything.
* Replenish- HA!
* Skullclamp- Why are you playing creatures? Why are you paying mana to do things with them?
* Sol Ring- I suppose you can power out an early Sphere of Resistance with this. That might be pretty good. If they don't have ESG....
* Strip Mine- Winning the game costs two mana in this format, and disruption had better be one mana or free. Is this going to slow them down? Why isn't this an Underground Sea so you can Duress with Daze backup?
* Time Spiral- If you shaved this price down by a third, you could just go ahead and win. Instead of putting the win in their hand.
* Time Walk- It's like a free cantrip that empties the storm count. You know what combo deck could really, really use this, and loves it's 1U spells?
* Timetwister- No, I'm trying to be serious.
* Tinker- I suppose you could get a Nullstone Gargoyle with this. That might be pretty good. If they don't draw a Lotus Petal, I mean.
* Vampiric Tutor- I suppose this would make Flash-Hulk more insane, if such was possible.
* Wheel of Fortune- If you cut off one mana and switched that ugly red mana symbol for a nice Blue one... and then maybe change that ugly Sorcery line to Instant... and that clunky card drawing thing with just winning...
* Windfall- Yeah, good thinking, they might need help drawing into the combo.
* Worldgorger Dragon- I guess 1B sorcery-speed kills that are highly vulnerable to removal from every color, instead of simply blue-black, and leave you with no permanents when you fizzle the combo are too powerful?
* Yawgmoth's Bargain- Who has six mana?

For reference, here's the entire list of banned cards that I can think of plausible arguments for, as to why they're more powerful/format warping than Flash-Hulk:

* Ancestral Recall
* Black Lotus
* Demonic Consultation
* Mana Crypt
* Tolarian Academy
* Yawgmoth's Will

Obviously, this is an overly generous list. Black Lotus, for instance, probably isn't that powerful in relation, for the same reason I listed for the Moxen. Consultation is only an enabler, and doesn't have great synergy with what would clearly be the best deck in a format where Flash and Hulk remain legal..

There are some cards that you underestimate. Sure a mox only generates you 1 mana and one storm as oppsed to flash winning the game, but unbanning moxen would basically create a near 100 percent turn one goldfish for storm based combo which would be much more broken than flash. Overall your list seems ok since most cards are far less powerful then flash, but i definately believed the following cards are more powerful than you give them credit for and therefore more powerful than flash.

all 5 moxen- If you unbanned these the format would be all combo and control. They would also give storm based combo a near 100 percent turn one goldfish.

minds desire- If you unbanned minds desire right now I definately think storm absed combo would be more broken than flash is.

mishra's workshop- This is probably as good as flash. It is much more powerful though overall. If flash allowed to run rampant though, this should definatley be unleashed so that stax decks can become competitive

sol ring- not really that amazing when compared to a mox, but it is still broken. Seriously this card would be great for control. The mana accel it provides would allow them to get a slaver off early enough to count

mana drain- Definately nuts if it resolves, since it allows blue to get extra mana which they can use to win the game or resolve a slaver

channel- on the same power level as flash. Sure it isnt blue but it doesnt require you to have a protean hulk to win or do something nuts

yawgmoths bargain- Its the reason flash was errata'd, plus it can be resolved on turn one very easily.

tinker- Its blue and its broken. Sac a 0cc artifact and grab whatever artifact you need. Platinum angel kindof owns flash if you have a handful of counters. So does slaver

demonic tutor- 2 mana to get any card in your deck. It makes flash more broken. It just is broken.

skullclamp- Too damn good.