Technogeek, I've been doing the same thing for casual play. So I would love to hear what your thoughts on it are.
Currently, I'm subbing in Jotun Grunts in place of 2 Rotting Giant, and once I get them will run Nantuko Shade over Dark Confidant.Originally Posted by Clark Kant
Or instead of Jotun Grunt, I'm looking at 2-3 Tombstalker in place since they've been working so well in Vaka Pox.
Here's something I'll be playing in either the grinders or the GP itself (I don't want to use the same deck for both)
// Lands
3 [EX] City of Traitors
2 [SOK] Tomb of Urami
3 [MI] Crystal Vein
10 [MM] Swamp (4)
// Creatures
4 [UD] Phyrexian Negator
3 [TSP] Plague Sliver
3 [R] Juggernaut
4 [US] Priest of Gix
4 [TO] Mesmeric Fiend (crazy good against hulk)
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
// Spells
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [A] Dark Ritual
4 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice (turns wimps into clocks)
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [7E] Duress
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 1 [RAV] Darkblast
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 2 [CHK] Night of Souls' Betrayal
The 8x accelerants make it so that you're sure to be able to get down confidant/fiend turn one. If you draw a ritual and a mox a lot of the time the correct play is to simply imprint the ritual. Priest of gix is much better than he looks. Dark rit, priest, priest, gator can be a turn 3 kill, and turn one priest-gator followed by a turn 2 5/x is a turn 3 as well. A lot of the time he's a free creature that beats for a couple then flashbacks therapy. Don't forget that he can turn colorless mana into black mana for multiple discard spells, or sacking the tomb. Tomb of Urami is better here than it is in most decks, as your discard lets you take out their removal, saccing 2-3 lands doesn't cripple you with all the mox/rits, and you can create the 5/5 flyer very, very early. In conjunction with another early 5/x or two and discard it can be simply too much for the control/aggro control deck to handle.
The deck has a solid game against Hulk, Thresh, and other combo. The matchup against gobblins varies from build to build, the mono red version being the best matchup and RG being the worst.
If you plan on bringing this, or anything similar, to the GP TEST AGAINST JACK FLASH. I cannot stress this enough, the matchup is VERY skill dependent. Sometimes you should name a combo peice with the therapy, and sometimes it's correct to name Lim-Dul's Vault. Sometimes it's even correct to name Daze, FoW, or even Brainstorm!
I might even go so far as to say that if you have not tested/played with/against a ton of combo/control using discard before, you should probably not even consider this deck. Seemingly minor subtle mistakes, such as taking the wrong ritual/tutor or naming the wrong card with therapy, are THE differences between winning and losing with this deck.
Note that against the kiki combo plague can be brought in naming zombie.
Also note that against the kiki version if you take a combo card (kiki, karmic guide, carrion feeder) with mesmeric fiend it forces them to have a bounce spell for it before going off. If they don't have one of those peices grabbing a Hulk/Flash/LDV is still good (obv.) but it doesn't force them to bounce the fiend, searching up another combo peice will work just fine.
Against the mirage tutors version on the play Chalice can be brought in, as it then hits at least 12 cards in their deck, shutting off almost everything but the actual Flashs themselves.
Against gobbs my sb has been
-3 mesmeric fiend
-4 Duress
+4 Plague
+2 Night of souls betrayal (plagues 5&6)
+1 Darkblast (Makeshift plague)
Dark rit, Dark rit, priest of gix-sofi-equip hands should be gold here (while they probably wouldn't against, say, flash). This makes G1 mulliganing decisions very difficult sometimes, but so be it. I'd probably keep that sort of hand regardless just because of my odds of drawing disruption off of the sword, the fast clock, and the crazy card advantage against the red decks.
Against UW Thresh
-1 SoFI
-3 Priest of Gix
-4 Cabal Therapy
+4 Leyline
+4 Chalice
If you get a leyline down with a marginal hand you should win. Almost always. Chalice makes this even worse, as if it resolves it tends to make things very, very difficult for them.
UR thresh
-4 Mesmeric Fiend
-4 Cabal Therapy
+(see above)
Sword shouldn't be taken out here (duh) and your play should actually differ quite a lot. Dark rit-preist-gator is no longer a winning play, unless you have another accelerant and a discard spell to go with it.
Against different combo decks you have different, but basic sbing strategies. In general SoFI, one of each sliver and juggs, and perhaps a preist or two can be removed, use your judgement and think it through, don't do anything arbitrary.
Against less desirable matchups like Meathooks/Survival/Heavy Control you should be trying to make the game a race. Yes, your disruption is nice, but all disruption+dark confidant hands become much less desirable, and multiple priest-5/x hands become much better.
The FS matchup is very even. You can't block their creatures, your creatures are bigger, and sometimes they can't block them (SoFI). Really whoever gets the best start or whoever manages to make their disruption relevent will win. Oodles of combat math! Edit: If you see their hand w/ a duress/fiend on turn one and their only source of blue mana is a chrome mox... TAKE THE MOTHER F***ING MOX YOU SCRUB. I cannot believe how many times people have seen my hand with a duress, thought long and hard, then taken a duplicate equipment or something stupid like that instead of the all-important blue mana source.
At one point my sb was -2 NoSB, -1 Darkblast and +3 Massacre, but I realized the only deck I was bringing the massacre's in against was Fish w/ mother of runes and gobblins. Gobblins have better hate cards, and against fish I was hitting my own fiends. This was, naturally, quite horrible.
Temporarily I had 3x Tormod's Crypt, as I realized they were quite good in conjunction with leylines/my deck against the kiki builds of Flash. Against thresh you could board in either them, the leylines, or both. This was depending on if you were on the play or the draw, and on how capable your opponents build was of dealing w/ whatever you were using. Against Naturalize you can hold back crypts until they have a full grave, and against Needles leyline is obv. superior.
Still, 7x sb anti-grave slots was probably too much, and my gobblin matchup still needed help, so that's what the deck looks like today.
If you're looking at a field that's 35+% Hulk Flash you can go -1 Mox, -1 Land, -1/2 Juggs +2/4 Unmask.
Umm... yeah. Thoughts/Comments/Questions/Ideas/Flames?
I will start with your decklist.Technogeek, I've been doing the same thing for casual play. So I would love to hear what your thoughts on it are.
Currently, I'm subbing in Jotun Grunts in place of 2 Rotting Giant, and once I get them will run Nantuko Shade over Dark Confidant.
Or instead of Jotun Grunt, I'm looking at 2-3 Tombstalker in place since they've been working so well in Vaka Pox.
#1. Your deck actually runs a little to much white then i was thinking about. It seems to drift more towards deadguy ale. Cards like gerrards verdict will hamper the raw speed that dark ritual provides and your list already runs 8 discard. My list has been working perfectly for me with 3 duress and 4 hymn to tourach. Butttt..... I dont intend on playing legacy till the B/R announcement in june that sais flash is banned, so you might want to run 4 duress and 4 hymn... no verdict and id probably go with 3 duress after B/R in june. Also i dont think i like 4 vindicate because of the hampering the speed of dark ritual (the insane openings of dark ritual make this deck playable).
I have yet to test jotun grunt in my build so i dont have any advice on numbers or cards to run along side of it.
Dark confidant is another golden card for the deck, i would sooner play Bob in place of 4 hippie because it is your only draw and is bettter late game.
Tomb stalker seems like a great card, but i dont think sui gets cards in the graveyard fast enough to let you cast him before turn 3 when it realy matters. Again i have yet to test him.
Also, i dont run maindeck negators in my build due to how bad a matchup burn is and any deck running burn (UGR thresh, gobbs, UR solidarity, etc...) makes negator unplayable turn 1. I run 3 in the board and side them in against control and slower aggro.
These are my thoughts, hope they help.
Tng5000
Sorry caleb i forgot what i was going to say for you when i was finishing up my post towards Clark.
First with your list
Mana base: You are trying with your mana to do to many little tricks and giving up consistancy and control. I do like chrome mox though.
-3 crystal vein: This is the obvius first place to start. Crystal vein is terrible in a deck that has (or atleast should have, your list doesnt) 11-12 double black spells. Even though your list doesnt run hymn, sinkhole, and hippie you still need more permanent mana sources.
-3 City of traitors: The extra mana is cute and works well with priest of gix, juggs, and negator. But sui takes several hits already from its life total with dark confidant and zombies (in your case plauge sliver).
-2 Tomb of urami: You never want to sack your mana base, ever, especially when the product can be plowed, edicted, etc... Sui is a fast tempo deck and this will kill you mid game if you use it or not.
+3 wasteland: mana denial is a crucial stradegy for sui. Taking a land from most decks is a time walk.
+5 swamp: You dont have enough black sources.
Creatures: you have to many expensive creatures and it is costing you in the early game.
-3 juggernaut: a vanilla 5/3 that dies to bolt for 4 is a no no for sui
-3 Plauge sliver: same thing except you might want to put it in your board if your meta has a number of sliver decks.
+4 Nantuko shade: gg any deck that uses creatures to win (No, not including hulk flash)
+2 sinkhole: Mana denial is important
Spells: Your spells seem decent, i dont like sword though.
-3 SoF/I: Again, sui is all about tempo. You dont want to be spending your middle/ late game casting this and getting it onto a creature.
-0/1 duress: Depends on how many people in your area conformed to this deck and if plan on playing it after june 1st
+3/4 diabolic edict: Your list has no creature removal that can deal with early threats.
Ill finish this later, my Computer science class just ended.
Edit: Sideboard: Looks okay but there are a few flaws
-2 night of soul's betrayal: kills fiend, confidant, and priest
+2 Null rod/ darkblast: They both help important matchups. Null rod is good against combo and affinity, darkblast is good against goblins, fish, and most aggro.
Last edited by technogeek5000; 05-15-2007 at 11:21 AM.
Sucks balls. I have tested it, its a turn 4-6 card most of the time, and really sucks if you play it in conjunction with giant. Also, sometimes slower than turn 5.
Also, i dont run maindeck negators in my build due to how bad a matchup burn is and any deck running burn (UGR thresh, gobbs, UR solidarity, etc...) makes negator unplayable turn 1. I run 3 in the board and side them in against control and slower aggro.
Tng5000
Dude, how dare you NOT play gator?! Your one of those "wussy" players that choose dead guy over B/R cause your scared. Gator is a FUCKING house against every deck in the format except pure burn decks, and why the hell are you scared if your playing swords? This guy rocks the shit out of goblins, because all they have is gempalm which isn't effective at ALL if they don't have 3+ goblins, which your not going to let them have. Second, fanatic doesn nothing. Finnaly, pyrokinesis from the board can be easily ripped out of their hand with disruption. This guy pounds goblin players to death because their creatures suck at blocking. Ok, your disruption owns solidarity hard, and both sui black and red death have a 70% first game. Red Thresh- This is the only deck that have caused me the slightest problems. In this match-up, play smart and don't do first turn gator. Waste their spells with other creatures and rip the ones they are hiding out of their hand with discard and you should be OK. SB gets much better.
And also, play red death because it kicks ass, go see the new versions (see the monster den tourney report) built against flash and other combo.
This paragraph makes me want to punch someone in the face. Its like all the reasons to run Negator all in one paragraph. Not that I would really punch someone but Negator gets you going or he doesn't.
I'm scared to go to the Frog now. Anwar's inner demon has been unleashed.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
Well, I figure since I've been playing this deck for close to 3 years now I might as well throw my 2 cents in, it being my favorite deck of all time and all. My current list, which still needs a bit of testing, is as follows:
Disruption base
//
4 Duress
4 Sinkhole
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Wasteland
4 Pithing Needle
Creature Removal
//
4 Diabolic Edict
Threats
//
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Dark Confidant
3 Nantuko Shade
Mana
//
4 Dark Ritual
17 Swamp
SB:
3 Dystopia
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Mutilate/Damnation
4 Engineered Plague
2 Contagion
Card Choices:
Duress-I see this is a must maindecked as it hits home on nearly every matchup except Gobbos and 43 Land. Ripping out a vital point of your opponents combo or taking away that annoying removal or control spell that will ruin your tempo is extremely useful, at least to me : - )
Hymn to Tourach-Once again, useful in almost every matchup except maybe 43 land. I guess the only thing bad to say about hymn is if you're playing Madness or against Misdirection, heh. But yeah, nothing beats first turn Dark Rit + Duress + Hymn, it always elicits a groan from my opponent.
Sinkhole-Rarely dead, usually good for slowing your opponent down while accelerating ahead of them and deadly in conjunction with Wasteland against decks such as Thresh and Landstill. Sinkhole, Duress, and Hymn are 3 cards I've never removed from my decklist nor have I altered the numbers since they are instrumental in gaining you that tempo advantage against just about every deck in existence.
Wasteland-Just too useful to not include. Sure I cried sometimes when I opened a perfect hand with 2 Wastelands instead of swamps, but I didn't lose sleep over it since it was really just a fluke anyways. It helps to have virtually uncounterable land destruction : - )
Pithing Needle-A very very new inclusion in the deck and one that needs testing for sure, but so far I'm liking it since it's quite the bomb in so many matchups. It's extra disruption against fetches in Solidarity and Threshold, it distrupts Vial, Port, Siege, Kiki, Sharpshooter, Fanatic, Prospector and probably some other gobbos I'm forgetting against Goblins, it helps bring the heat on against SOTF and sometimes wins matches by itself, and it's generally useful for stopping stupid things such as Oblivion Stone (MBC) and Isochron Scepter that might otherwise grind your deck to a halt. It helps that it's a 1 drop and also that it's another permanent to sac to Negator at the very worst.
Diabolic Edict-Best removal spell the deck can possibly use. I may have removed it once, but then immediately after testing smacked my head on the table several times to remind myself how bad of an idea it is to not use this card. It gets around annoying things like untargetability, regeneration, indestructability, and color protection and only really has issues with decks that run crappy creatures to soak it up with. I would not leave home without it : - )
Phyrexian Negator-This guy is really tough to decide on. He's been in and out of my list so many times it makes my head spin. I concur with the statement about his strength against most decks in the meta as anything that doesn't splash read for damage spells or is an aggro deck will have difficulty dealing with a turn 1 Negator or even a turn 3 Negator backed by disruption. The question, however, comes down to your meta and how much burn/ugr thresh/anything-else-that-runs-burn there is and also how heavy your aggro is. In the beginning I used this guy religously as I had watched my friend dominate our local tournament for several months straight with an older list, however after time it seemed that burn was becoming more predominant so I made the decision to fill his slot with the ever potent Masticore. That seemed to do the trick for quite awhile, however now I'm starting to think Masticore is either better off Sideboard or not included at all (my current build). It's still quite the toss up and really I'd have to say it's a meta call since Negator isn't necessarily irreplacable as a threat in this deck.
Hypnotic Specter-Tee hee. He's a fun one. Generally useful just because he's got so much jam packed into him for such a low cost and is almost always a good first turn drop. His ability to get in those 2 points of damage per turn has become invaluable and his disruption has single handedly one me games against control. At one time I had taken him out for awhile, believing that his lack of power was hindering the deck, but I soon realized that his disruption feature was too strong to leave out. He's one of those guys that rarely ever gets sided out.
Dark Confidant-When I first saw this guy was being printed I had to run to Walmart to pick up some new undies. IMO, he saved the deck. I'll admit that I still toy with whether I should run 3 or 4 of him and sometimes I cut him alltogether due to his weak power, but in general, he stays in since he pulls you out of the crappiest situations and he's yet another card your opponent MUST remove. I'm not super keen on having more than one in play, hence cutting him to 3, but he dies so much that a 4 of ends up being more than enough in most cases. Overall, definitely a worthwhile inclusion, although questionable when running high CC cards like Masticore and/or Contagion.
Nantuko Shade-This guy..... yeah. I really don't know about him. I mean, he's freaking amazing in a lot of matchups, but I really don't like how he eats up all my mana in order to really be effective. Many times I'd rather be running some Sinks and Hymns into my opponents face than swinging with him, making him kind of dead for a few turns, but othertimes he's invaluable. To me, he really seems best as a late game draw unless you're running good creature removal, since he gets pinged off far too easily early game. I've always had trouble deciding whether to hold back mana to keep him alive against burn, or get his damage in and let him get removed. If anyone has some insight into this I'd appreciate it since I've been messing with that particular theory forever. Overall though, I think he really is worth having, however I've currentl, and this is still going through testing so don't bust a nut yet, cut him down to 3 due to the fact that Dark Confidant competes with him for usage of my mana. I'll let you know how this works out though as most of the time I really do prefer him as a 4 of. I actually cut the 3rd for a Pithing Needle since I wanted to orientate this deck towards anti-combo control and then side into a strong aggro hate.
Swamps and Rits- 17 has always been the magic number for Sui, although I have debated about running 1 Tomb of Urami. I tried it once, but for some reason I didn't care for it, I think partially due to it being uneccessary in some matchups and the +1 damage to me being too much of a detriment for continued inclusion. As far as Rits, I freaking love them. Sure they're not true disruption but they're part of what helps you to pull ahead early game and they're ever so fun to ambush with using Shades on opponents who don't think you'll have the extra pumps.
Dystopia-This card is the reason I don't feel the need to ever splash any other color in this deck. It may be a little slow, but generally so are the enchantments that lock your deck down. It's amazing in so many matchups such as Survival, WW, Angel Stompy and a bunch more I don't feel like thinking up. At the moment I only run 3 since 1 is generally enough to have teh desired effect and the redundancy hardly seems necessary.
Chalice of the Void-This and Dystopia are the 2 cards that have ALWAYS made the cut in the SB since I found them. Chalice is my personal answer to Burn and it's just so much fun to run against Solidarity and Thresh that I can't resist : - ) Really, it's generally your way to seal the deal against combo, but it comes in handy against any deck that runs an obscene amount of 1 or 0 drops.
Mutilate/Damnation-This slot is really a new things for me, but I've recently seen more of a need to run board clear for this deck. The reason I have Mutilate in there is partially for budget reasons, but mainly because I haven't encountered a lot of situations where Damnation is strictly better. Most of the time you're casting either of them with around 3-4 swamps in play, therefore making mutilate at least equal to Damnation. The only thing I can really think of is decks that run early game beef, such as Reanimator, that you Mutilate will fall short on. I run a limited count since I mix in several other creature removal elements that generally tend to provide an efficient enough mix to warrant the lower amount being run.
Engineered Plague-Another new element for me since I've traditionally run Masticore plus things like Contagion which, up until recently, has proven enough to deal with Goblins and other such decks. I've decided to run this higher amount due to Empty the Warrens decks, the increase in number and effectiveness of Gobbos and because it seems to generally have enough targets to warrant using. I'll post any other relevant data when I've tested the card more extensively.
Contagion-This guy is really a debated card for me here, but I find him to be extremely useful. The fact that he comes out for 0 mana really helps his cause since he can take out that early game lackey before he gets a swing in and also can respond to random creature threats that come out before I have a chance to ready a defense, such as man lands. The fact that the counters stick to man lands make me partial to this card against 43 land, although I have many other answers as well. I recently tried testing out the pros and cons of this guy and Slaughter Pact and found out that in about 9/10 situations, Contagion is better. It's main detriments are: Card disadvantage (with Confidant not as big of a deal), Loss of life (the 1 point isn't an issue, but it hurts sooooo bad when you Confidant one of these guys), and the fact that you can't knock out any guys with toughness greater than 2. This aside, Contagion seems invaluble in the sense that it gives you an added element of surprise to take your opponent off guard and it's blazing fast speed is damn near irreplaceable.
Alrighty then, I figure I should mention, if you didn't read all that stuff up above, that this deck is geared towards maindecked combo and control hate and then sides in somewhere between 8-10 aggro hate cards post sideboard. This said, you can see where some of my choices come from. I think I'll first address some of the cards included in the list currently being posted on this thread, mainly Wretched Anurid and Vendetta.
Wretched Anurid: While I can say I've never really tested with this guy, per se, I don't really care for him over confidant since that extra point of damage really doesn't seem to push him over the edge. I played with Flesh Reaver a long long time ago and recently tried integrating him back into the deck, to no avail, and I can say with experience that he really doesn't seem optimal. I believe in all the time I've played this deck, I've had him really influence my wins maybe 2 times and neither of these are worth referencing as they were really statistical outliers. Back to Anurid though, his lack of relevant abilities really kind makes him a little too vanilla in my opinion. Honestly I'd rather run something like Rotting Giant, which I've done before, or Skittering Skirge in his spot.
Vendetta: Definitely an interesting idea, I'll try them out and see how I like them. I've thought of it before, however I've discounted it mainly due to my meta, since Psychatog has been a prominent threat for quite awhile and the fact that it can't hit him makes me hesitate to even try him out. Granted Tog is one of the few black creatures that seems to see constant play, the fact that he's still pretty badass makes this card seem a little less useful, still I like it.
Ok, I'll wrap this up with a few other cards I left out that I've either tested before or feel might be warrant further testing in the future:
Withered Wretch-I really really really like this guy, but it mainly appears to be an issue of A)Meta and B)Optimization. I tried my damndest to fit this guy in, but I can't find enough cards to kick out to make him worth using. Plus, one of the main reasons I liked him was for Thresh, Landstill and Tog and ATM it seems like these matchups are reasonable favorable for me, enough so that I don't need to worry about graveyard removal as an option.
Planar Void/Tormod's Crypt/Leyline of the Void-All these have their advantages and disadvantages, Planar Void being probably the worst of the 3. Crypt is nice late game, but mostly seems uneccessary at this point mainly for the same reasons Wretch is unecessary. Leyline is very very tempting due to the number of decks that manipulate the graveyard in the current meta, however I'm going to try and go without it for the moment.
Masticore-I love this guy to death, and there's a chance he might still make the cut either sideboarded or even over Negator, but I need to do a lot of testing to determine this. One of the main reasons I like this guy is since he provides a solid body to beat down Burn decks. While this may not be a good enough reason due to the erratic appearances of burn in the meta, when it does come it's nice to have him around. This, coupled with the fact that he can pick off annoying ability creatures like Rofellos, Siege-Gang, KiKi, and Meddling make him quite the utility creature. I'll probably be trying to fit him in somewhere in the near future.
Flesh Reaver-As I mentioned before, nice but probably not optimal. I've never really loved having this guy in, I just like seeing a 4/4 for 2 in my opening hand. The problem being, that he's so easily blocked that you need to run a lot of removal alongside him to really make him worth including and at the moment my deck is definitely lacking in that particular department.
Garza's Assassin-Up until recently I've been running a single copy of this gangsta since he seems rather unique and useful. His ability to swing in for 2 until you need to pop him has been rather enticing as of late and the fact that he recurs, despite the exorbitant cost, has kind of sealed the deal. I'm not sure if I'd ever run more than 2, but the 1 of seemed worth messing with for a little while. Definitely something I'd consider.
Cursed Scroll-This guy is trickey as he's amazing in the creature control department and helps to win games against stupid crap like Moat and MBC, but he becomes problematic when you look at how slow it is. Also, were I to not run Dark Confidant I'd almost definitely put it back in, but at the moment the anti-synergy of the 2 cards seems to push it out of the deck in place of faster cards that don't hog mana such as Pithing Needle.
Crucible of Worlds-Yeah, I've never been too crazy about this guy except when I was testing Tomb of Uramia and even then it just seemed vastly underpowered. It doesn't help the tempo of the deck and really is just nice for consistency and to help recur permanents to sac to Negator. Overall, probably not worth exploring except in Pox.
Haunting Echoes-While I've tried this a few times, it doesn't seem to have enough targets to hit. I originally intended this card as an answer for Thresh, Rifter and Tog but it seemed too easily countered and slow to work on Thresh and Tog and Rifter always seemed to have enough cards left to pull of a victory. Maybe worth testing, but prolly not.
Underworld Dreams-This card has tempted me too many times and for not enough good reason. I like it since if you can resolve one early game, it can take a toll on a lot of decks, however the ability of many decks to avoid the whole "draw" aspect of it through cards such as Ringleader, FoF and Confidant have caused me to shy away from this card.
Chains of Mephistopholes- For many of the same reasons as Underworld Dreams, I dislike this card since there does not appear to be enough targets. Too many decks nowadays just tutor for the win, TES, and have no need for actual draw. Probably not worth considering anytime soon.
Skittering Skirge-Another one of those "If I didn't have Confidant I'd run this guy." cards. Although not really as much since he has the whole, you can't play a creature after me or I pop, deal. Still, BB for a 3/2 flyer isn't bad if you're looking for a quick threat, you just need to make sure you limit him to around 2-3 per deck with a preferably limited number of other threats alongside him.
Phyrexian WarBeast-A solid beater who has won me a few games against burn, but generally he died out a long time ago when Land Tax got banned ; - )
Unearth-This guy is kind of a tough choice too, but once again I'd say he gets the cut due to optimization. It's nice to pull back the negator/shade/confidant/hippie that died the turn before or the same turn, but most of the time you already have a threat to replace it. So while it's a nice tempo boost and never truly dead due to it's ability to cycle, it just seems to lack in true utility unlike cards such as Pithing Needle.
Carnophage/Sarcomancy-When I first started playing this I remember reading a primer on Sui Black written by Legend Black, the creator on TMD, who cited his reasons for not running this guy. Mainly it had something to do with the illusion of dealing damage and how cards like Flesh Reaver and Negator were much faster and how speed was key in this deck. I'm going to have to agree with this since Carnophage seems way way way too vanilla for inclusion in this deck, he's just too underpowered really and he makes 1 point COTV too weak to consider inclusion.
Ok, I think I'm done writing as I have other things to do and I'm sure I've put more than enough down for people to digest, should they choose to do so. Please please please please please do not ever recommend a color splash to me. I hate color splashes with a passion and yes, I have tried them. Getting color screwed is just another thing you have to worry about that really doesn't warrant cards like STP or Vindicate (yes I like them but Edict replaces STP well enough and Vindicate makes Rit kinda bad) and is easily remidied by Dystopia/Pithing Needle. KEEP SUI BLACK FREAKING BLACK! I'll end this by saying that there's definitely a reason almost every single one of my friends defaults to playing this deck when I play casually, because it's fun, it's powerful, and it generally stands a chance against any deck out there due it's unparalleled ability to disrupt.
Let me show you something
4th place danish legacy champs
14 Swamp
3 Chainer's Edict
3 Lotus Petal
2 Chrome Mox
2 Sudden Spoiling
4 Diabolic Edict
1 Juzam Djinn
3 Plague Sliver
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Dark Confidant
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Nantuko Shade
Sideboard:
3 Massacre
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Engineered Plague
1st place March iserholn
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Carnophage
4 Dark Confidant
4 Dark Ritual
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Duress
2 Engineered Plague
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Sinkhole
2 Withered Wretch
15 Swamp
4 Wasteland
Sideboard:
3 Chains of Mephistopheles
3 Contagion
1 Engineered Plague
2 Null Rod
2 Pithing Needle
2 Powder Keg
2 Withered Wretch
7th place june Iserholn
4 Withered Wretch
4 Smother
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Duress
1 Darkblast
4 Dark Ritual
4 Dark Confidant
4 Black Knight
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Cursed Scroll
19 Swamp
Sideboard:
4 Consume Spirit
1 Cabal Coffers
4 Diabolic Edict
4 Engineered Plague
2 Tormod's Crypt
8th place july Iseholn
4 Wasteland
17 Swamp
3 Smother
4 Sinkhole
4 Nantuko Shade
2 Hypnotic Specter
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Duress
2 Diabolic Edict
4 Dark Ritual
4 Dark Confidant
4 Black Knight
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Cursed Scroll
Sideboard:
2 Chains of Mephistopheles
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Engineered Plague
3 Null Rod
2 Perish
3 Withered Wretch
3rd place Magic legacy trial
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Diabolic Edict
4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Sinkhole
3 Cursed Scroll
3 Black Knight
4 Dark Confidant
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Wasteland
13 Swamp
4 Bloodstained Mire
Sideboard:
4 Pithing Needle
2 Mutilate
3 Engineered Plague
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Null Rod
Now what do all these lists have in common. None of them run maindeck negator. Yes thats right nearly every single time this deck has toped 8 at a tournament negators were absent from the maindeck. And do you know why, because its inconsistent. Sure its great in alot of matchups, but against ugr thresh, burn, and red death it sucks ass. Also i didnt like splashing white so that means no stp.
Ok this is not the red death topic. Im tired of people telling everyone to switch to red death. This is unproductive to the purpose of the topic. Sui black is an entirely different deck with its own pros and cons.
@Khurtz: Your list seems decent... but i dont like damnation/ mutilate in the board, its a double sided effect so it kills your creatures which seems like it will often help your oppenent more then it helps you.
I can understand your dislike of Mutilate/Damnation. The slot is currently in contest since it's prolly overkill considering the number of E Plague's I'm running. I suppose I'm mostly concerned about getting overrun by shit like Angel Stompy or WW where Plagues will be reasonably ineffective and I'll have to rely on Contagion and Edict to get rid of their stuff. I suppose I could use Vendetta over those, but honestly I'd rather run the extra Contagions as they can occassionaly 2 for 1 things. If you have any suggestions as to what would best compliment the Eplague and Contagion I'd be happy to hear them, or if your suggestion happens to be Vendetta I'd like to know your reasoning behind it. If we take into consideration that Vendetta's ability to kill early Lackey's and such isn't as much a concern due to E plague + Contagion + Edict, it almost seems inferior to something like Terror since the low mana cost really isn't a factor at that point in the game. Also, Vendetta ups the one drops which, when running Duress and Pithing Needle, kind of decreases the effectiveness of COTV, at least in my opinion it does. I would almost say that maybe running Garza's Assassin would be best since if you needed to sideboard out threats like Negator due to burn, you would be able to replace it with at least another source of damage. IDK, maybe it's too expensive to play or the recover cost is too great, but I think it should be considered.
Like what? The Red splash seems like a fundamental and entirely positive leap forward for the archetype. What do you think it causes you to lose that makes you want to stay mono colored?
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
Also, I would really appreciate it, now that I'm here, if people would not post their W/B or R/B lists here as this is in fact, Suicide Black. If you want to post your multi-colored list you might want to consider posting them in the Red Death or Deadguy Ale threads where they belong. Thanx!
I appreciate the input, but I don't think you're right on some things.
Crystal Vein: I think that's the idea, my list doesn't run double black and thus can support a manabase built for turn one disruption, turn two 5/x. The reason Crystal Vein has been so good to me is because you can choose to sack it or no. Meaning turn one fiend/confidant with a mox is nice, then I have the option for sacrificing it for the extra mana later to do something game-winning, say activating tomb at the crucial moment, or allowing you to equip SoFI a full turn earlier.
CoT: I'm not sure what you're getting at. In this deck the land reads: fast mana, no drawbacks.
Tomb of Urami: Sui, and this deck in particular, love the tomb. The intense amount of discard clears the way for a turn 2 5/x, turn 3 sack tomb of urami against a disruptionless opponent. It makes the threat base deeper and wins many games on its own. There's no reason not to run it in most black decks, but especially so in Sui, which can run out of resources quickly.
And turns 1-3, when I actually do equip it? The manabase supports quick, easy play+equip, so SoFI is a house. It turns gix/confidant/fiend into actual beatsticks, and speeds up gators kill by a full turn. Just getting a SoFI on a creature, especially gator, has won me games against gobblins and burn.
My threats are larger than everyone elses. They have to deal with MY threats, that's one reason the only disruption I run (outside of SoFI) is hand disruption. Why deal with thresh's 3/3's and 4/4's when I have 5/5's swinging in? I think it's important not to have any dead slots against the combo matchup these days.
I'm not keeping in Fiend/Priest when I bring in NoSB against gobblins. The idea is that you play it as engineered plague #5/6, making it easier to get duplicate plagues on the board, which will almost automatically win me the game. Furthermore, confidant and all those other little dinks will be dying against gobblins anyway, unless they have a SoFI on them in which case the NoSB will not matter.
@Technogeek5000:
Um yes, you clearly have not tested gators. It isn't in consistent and the only reason that people don't play them in europe is because there are still quite a bit of burn players and UGR thresh. Most would argue that UGW thresh is slightly better, and I haven't seen a red thresh list T8 in quite a long time. No 1 plays burn in america (almost no one). I doubt any sui-black list can T8 at columbus or any major american events without lots of luck. (red death can!)
I suggest you look at red death because it is almost strictly better than sui, except for diabolic edict. Red death is the evolution of sui, and its threats are better (rotting giant), has better and cheaper reach/removal(bolt, chain, seal etc). Vendetta causes life loss, which is relevant at times and irrelevant at times, but its Non black clause really sucks. You can't kill anything that is black like shades, dark confidants etc. While diabolic is very very good, it costs 2 mana and does not provide reach.
I'm not bashing sui, I love the deck, just saying that Gator kicks ass and you should play it.
Ok, firstly in regards to the Negator post I'm going to have to concur with their inclusion at the moment. They really are the card that keeps this deck fast and deadly and if your meta allows you to run them, I say run them. In regards to the Red Death posts here, I'm going to respond with a few points that you may find to irrelevant to your particular deck theory, however you are in fact the one who asked for reasons so I feel I should give you a few. First of all, the only card you appear to be getting, beyond the burn, is REB. Really not optimal for helping the decks versatility. Secondly, you open yourself up to 1 Point Chalice, which completely negates the purpose of the splash and since none of the lists I saw run an adequate answer in the sideboard to this I see it as a potential threat. Also, you turn the deck into a nonbasic frenzy and open yourself up to all kinds of nonbasic problems such as Wasteland, Pithing Needle (Fetches), Blood Moon (gives you red, but may prevent you from achieving BB). Also, your burn spells are kinda useless against Exalted Angel, Silver Knight, Psychatog, Mother of Runes, Jotun Grunt, Werebear, Nimble Mongoose, Fledgling Dragon, Argothian Enchantress, Eternal Dragon, Pumped Ravagers, Myr Enforcer, Atog, Troll Ascetic and many many more. Sure I can't target with edict so my game isn't as good against Goblins and a few other decks, but my sideboard adequately deals with them. In regards to the comment made regarding a better creature base running Wretched Anurid and Rotting Giant, I don't really see how they're that much better than running Flesh Reaver. Reaver is faster against the control and combo decks (which the deck is maindecked against) and post board has enough creature kill to allow it to swing in unmolested. Not to mention you could probably get away with running at least 2 Rotting Giants in Suicide without negative sideaffects as I have done so myself. I see Red Death as a less versatile but more aggressive Suicide Black since it has the ability to be more precise with it's burn spells in the targets you need to remove. I will reiterate though that there's really no reason to post about Red Death on this thread since it's really about the development of Mono-Black Suicide and the only use it could possibly have is in a direct comparison between the two decks. Overall, I think I'll stick with Suicide Black: - D
Is this a budget issue? Red Death have performed a lot better here in the U.S.A. I'll answer all of your points:
1) Beyond lightning bolts, chain lightnings and seal of fires: actually, in a affinity/artifact environment red death plays meltdown in the SB, also fire convenant against aggro. And yes, the red makes the deck THAT MUCH BETTER. As I said in the previous posts, diabolic edict is awsome, but it can't be applied to the head! If your an avid suicide player, you will know that that extra 3-6 damage can win you the game always. In a tight game, there is nothing better than the versatility of lightning bolt.
2) So what? I'll let you play a 1 point chalice. A 1 point chalice screws suicide a lot too. Chalice doesn't always cost red death the game, and it doesn't cause suicide the game, so the point is not very relevant. Sure its harder for RD, but unless they turn 1 chalice, which leaves them to disruption on your turn, or they wait and have to topdeck a chalice.
3) Actually, the deck isn't as vulnerable to wasteland/needle etc. The fetches are mandetory to keep giant and why the hell would they needle your fetch when you have threats like shade AND you only have 4-7 red spells anyways, so unless they needle both lands your not in trouble. If you ever played red death, you will know to hide your badlands. This means you never use a early fetch to find a badlands unless its an emergency. The standard deck have 10 red sources, which is enough. And there are builds with 12. Blood Moon is shit, magus is good and are even considering add to the RD SB. BB isn't hard to reach, new RD decks are not running wastelands...
4) Ok, 9/14 creatures you listed dies hard to dystopia. And a lot of them that cause a lot of problems don't get played until mid game.
5) The new build runs 3-4 confidants and 3-4 rotting giants, aside from the set of shade, gator hyppy. So yes, the creature base is better. I've already argued about why the reaver sucks, go check the red death thread.
Again, the original version of RD is 350+ dollars, while the new red death is around 270-280. When there is a sui black T8 in the next major tournament, i'll consider your claim that RD is inferior.
If anyone is thinking about running Sui Black in the GP and wants Team Hyena's "Paint it Black" current list for a last second bit of tech, here you go. We won't be able to make it.
15 Swamp
4 Dark Ritual
4 Chrome Mox
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Wretched Anurid
4 Hypnotic Specter
3 Carnophage
2 Wicked Akuba
1 Rotting Giant
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Engineered Plague
SB:
4 Pithing Needle
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dystopia
2 Serum Powder
1 Engineered Plague
The deck has a pretty solid game against Flash (We're anywhere from 40% to 75% depending on the Flash build, an above average game against Belcher (50-65% depending on build and die roll), and since we switched out maindeck Therapy for maindeck Plague, the Goblin matchup has gone up to being pretty close to even. Oh, and, like, Threshold and Iggy Pop? No sweat. Fish is pretty decent also, you just have to keep them from nailing you with Dark Confidant (Plague helps a lot here actually.)
This is the deck I was planning to take. Wicked Akuba is very good as Shades 5-6. Carnophage goes over Sarcomancy to dodge Stifle, same with no fetchlands. The 1 Giant is supportable, but never 2, so we ran with 1. Serum Powder helps you grab Needle/Dystopia/Leyline in matches where they're crucial.
We're confident that in this bizarre hulk meta, we'd have had a pretty good shot at day 2.
I would say that leyline delays flash hulk 1-4 turns usually, sometimes more. The list looks good, but with less goblins, is 3x engineered plague really necessary? Also, I fricking hate akuba, anurid, single giant and to a lesser extent carnophag (no e).
How about Black Knight, Knight of Stromgald, dauthi slayer, dark confidant (yes i know ripping a leyline sucks), Drekavac (discard leyline?), flesh reaver (IMO suck), mesmeric guy, nakaya shade, skittering skirge, stromgald crusader, yixid jailier/withered wretch (Remove your own cards against tarmogofy?). Or jitte?
Jailer and Tarmogoyf aren't legal for the GP, which is what that last list was suggested for.
The Engineered Plague thing is a guess that you aren't going to see as big of a Goblins decrease as you think. Plus, after testing, Plague is the difference between a highly favorable UBW Fish matchup and a slightly unfavorable one. Plague on Wizards is what convinced me to maindeck it over Therapy. Before, the build was the reverse. 3 Maindeck Therapies and 1 in board.
Any reason you hate any of the cards you listed? Anurid's the best he's ever been as, like you said, there's going to be a decrease in goblins. Carnophage curves out beautifully in combination with a turn one Hymn or Shade or Anurid on a Ritual, and follows a Duress nicely if you get a Mox. The single Giant is drawbackless unless you anticipate everybody else running Leyline of the Void, in which case, cut it for something else. Akuba is fantastic against both combo and control and cuts down on the occasional problem of having more mana than you know what to do with.
Drekavac, interestingly enough, is in our post-FS Paint it Black build that runs Gathan Raiders. But you won't have Leylines to pitch. Because if you get it in the opening hand, you'll always start with it in play without knowing what your opponent is playing. You can't afford to do otherwise.
Black Knight sucks, Knight of Stromgald sucks, Dauthi Slayer sucks, Flesh Reaver doesn't synergize well with Wretched Anurid and no Burn, Mesmeric Fiend is awful here, Stromgald Crusader sucks, the deck packs too many creatures for Skittering Skirge, Yixlid Jailer is irrelevant with a Leyline out, as is Withered Wretch. And I don't even know what Nakaya Shade is. (Goes and looks it up.) Okay, that's decent, but not as good as Wicked Akuba.
Dark Confidant doesn't synergize well with Anurid and is at his best against control, which Flash should cut down on the number of and your match is tolerable against control anyway due to threat density. Plus, remember, you want to be able to Plague for Wizards. This is huge.
The Serum Powders in the sideboard can be Umezawa's Jittes, definitely. I prefer the Powders, because they're better against combo and I feel they're equally good against Goblins and Fish by letting me mulligan harder for Plagues.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Reply With Quote