[OLD] UGw Threshold

[aTn]

I don't like the Twincast plan. You have FoW, Daze, Stifle and MMage to deal with Solidarity and TES (by the way, TPS is an 'old' Vintage deck and I've never heard of it in Legacy, maybe I'm ignorant). Twincast seems like overkill. If I were you (and assuming you are playing Bardo's build), I'd probably put Shamans if you expect appropriate match-ups (Thresh, etc.) or Needles, if you excpect a lot of Goblins (Chill is nuts but if they have Vial in play, its not that hot, so Needle completes the 'lock' - there's at most four Vial activations you can Stifle assuming no Gruntiness permitting reoccurence, so Stifle is shit in that case).

[DEADMAN01]

ok Shammi sounds good for the board over the twincast idea... but on the other hand overkill does seem to be ok, i mean to watch there jaw drop would be priceless... and no i am not running Bardo's build... i have my own, but i like some of his ideas.. although i had thought of them as well, i just haven't tested very much with thresh, considering i just picked it up litteraly 2-3 days ago, and i just officially put it together last night, but anyways i really like the build and structure of GWU thresh, it seems to be able to handle alot of matchups... pre and post SB. might lower the geddans and cut 1 chill for 2 tividars crusade..

more ideas would be helpful

[Mildiou]

@Bardo...

What's your sideboard plan versus Goblins with your last build of the deck ("Hulk Slayer")? I used to remove Counterspell to make room but now there are gone for Stifle, what do you remove?

And by the way, if you have some time, I would appreciate a quick sideboarding guide since I plan to play in a Tournament this sunday (Tarmogoyf are legals,... YES!!)

[Solpugid]

I just realized that no one responded to AntiAmerican's suggestion of dryads and grunts...While they aren't as good maindeck (imho), I think I'll try to fit a playset in the board for game 2 (boarding out bears). That way I can at least somewhat dodge a boarded leyline.

However, if anyone thinks the whole tournament will be flash and anti-flash decks I believe that is the incorrect mindset. While I imagine those will be the decks that do the best, there is sure to be quite a bit of randomness early on (just like every Legacy tournament). For those random decks, I think I'll stick with the regular 2 maindeck counterspells, since I'd rather not get randomly wrecked by deed out of nowhere.

Finally, with Flash around, what is the best grave-hoser for the board? I've been running 2 grunts and 2 crypts, but crypt now hits a subset of flash decks (Kiki-jiki combo). What do you guys think?

[aTn]

I know it's not suppose to belong here, but since every deck is going to pack Leyline, why not swap Bears and Geese for Dryads and Grunts?

I'd say 'ok' for Dryads but 'no' for Grunts. With the increase of Fish and Leylines, odds are you'll have to dig into your opponent's grave with Grunt and if your opponent plays, say UWb-Fish (or another deck with Grunts and Leyline), your Grunts will not stay long on the board because graveyards are going to empty fast (even with 4 MD Stifles). For the pre-june 1st meta, I'm going to switch to UWb-Fish (and I'm pissed that I'm not going to be able to use my Goyfs till Flash gets the boot).

[Citrus-God]

I'd say 'ok' for Dryads but 'no' for Grunts. With the increase of Fish and Leylines, odds are you'll have to dig into your opponent's grave with Grunt and if your opponent plays, say UWb-Fish (or another deck with Grunts and Leyline), your Grunts will not stay long on the board because graveyards are going to empty fast (even with 4 MD Stifles). For the pre-june 1st meta, I'm going to switch to UWb-Fish (and I'm pissed that I'm not going to be able to use my Goyfs till Flash gets the boot).

Yeah.... same here. I love Goyfs. I'm calling them Steve McQueen.... Bullit is a badass movie, and McQueen is badass.

If you're going to play this deck at the GP, find a way to avoid Leyline, and run your own playset as well. I'd personally run 4 Dryads in the board, alongside with probably EE or Shackles.

I just realized that no one responded to AntiAmerican's suggestion of dryads and grunts...While they aren't as good maindeck (imho), I think I'll try to fit a playset in the board for game 2 (boarding out bears). That way I can at least somewhat dodge a boarded leyline.

Let's take Bardo's deck....

With his deck, my SB would probably be

4 Leyline of the Void
1 Krosan Grip
2 Armageddon
3 Vedalken Shackles
4 Quirion Dryad
1 Engineered Explosives

Against Aggro-Control, my plans would be

-4 Bears
-4 Geese

+3 Shackles
+4 Dryad
+1 EE

However, if anyone thinks the whole tournament will be flash and anti-flash decks I believe that is the incorrect mindset. While I imagine those will be the decks that do the best, there is sure to be quite a bit of randomness early on (just like every Legacy tournament). For those random decks, I think I'll stick with the regular 2 maindeck counterspells, since I'd rather not get randomly wrecked by deed out of nowhere.

Not to mention a topdecked Enforcer....

Finally, with Flash around, what is the best grave-hoser for the board? I've been running 2 grunts and 2 crypts, but crypt now hits a subset of flash decks (Kiki-jiki combo). What do you guys think?

Ground Seal is probably better against Kiki Jiki.... since those builds are naturally slower, Crypts become dead. Seals at least replace themselves.

[Solpugid]

I've seen a lot of people posting lists (here and elsewhere) that are designed to beat (or have good game against) hulk-flash. But most of those lists run mental note. After having done some testing yesterday with a portent version I can say that I think many of the matches would have been lost if I didn't have the extra dig power.

Also, keeping 2 counterspells maindeck turned out to be the right call. Having two additional hard counters available which my opponent (despite the version of flash played) did not have gave me a stronger late game than flash (screw inevitability).

As for naming cards with mage (and I'm not sure how much this has been discussed already), the first should name flash (obviously) and so should the second, at least game one. Having two down chanting flash forces your opponent to dig for echoing truth before going off. If you suspect your opponent is specifically searching for bounce you might consider getting in a counter war over lim-dul's vault.

Post board the scariest card was not leyline (I would LOVE to see flash players board in leyline against us) but massacre. A board sweep, which at least kills your mages, for free is just brutal. So, if you know your opponent is boarding them in, the second mage in game 2 or 3 might just want to chant massacre. This leaves you susceptible to wipe away, but that's one or two cards as opposed to 3 or 4 FREE cards in massacre.

[Citrus-God]

When I play against Flash, that is what you should name with Mages. Also, Spell Snares are sweet. I cant express my love for them enough. I'm testing them in the Counterspell slot, and they counter everything Counterspell would counter, but can counter Confidants on the draw.

[Volt]

In game 1, I like to name Lim-Dul's Vault with the 2nd mage. Then just save counters for the bounce spell. In game 2, I name Massacre with Mage #2.

[Citrus-God]

I like the Game 2 plan. The Game 1 plan with the 2nd Mage is very debatable.

[jazzykat]

I'd say 'ok' for Dryads but 'no' for Grunts. With the increase of Fish and Leylines, odds are you'll have to dig into your opponent's grave with Grunt and if your opponent plays, say UWb-Fish (or another deck with Grunts and Leyline), your Grunts will not stay long on the board because graveyards are going to empty fast (even with 4 MD Stifles). For the pre-june 1st meta, I'm going to switch to UWb-Fish (and I'm pissed that I'm not going to be able to use my Goyfs till Flash gets the boot).

6 months a go, in my local meta when graveyard hate was at a ridiculous high I was swapping out bears for dryads and just busting face. I like the mongoose so much in the face of targeted removal and would probably removal the enforcer's and a few of the geese for Grunt's if I was running them in the board too. NOTE: Enforcer can be key for certain matches so be careful when you remove him.

[Citrus-God]

6 months a go, in my local meta when graveyard hate was at a ridiculous high I was swapping out bears for dryads and just busting face. I like the mongoose so much in the face of targeted removal and would probably removal the enforcer's and a few of the geese for Grunt's if I was running them in the board too. NOTE: Enforcer can be key for certain matches so be careful when you remove him.

Enforcer is basically one of the reasons why I play White. The other two are SB and Swords. Enforcer swings games around-but it's very dependent on the match-up.

[thefreakaccident]

I would be abliged to aggre with Anti... enforcer is the only reason to run the white splash... red gives you more creature removal/reach... while white gives you enforcer swords and mage (mage to a lesser extent, unless you are playing combo... then it becomes the bomb)... I have been finding that the white splash has a much better fish MU than the red splash (can deal with grunt before they take our thresh)...

what have you guys been doing in order to take care of the sudden increase in fish throughout the american meta?

I have been finding that more creature removal in the MD is necessary, and I have taken needles out of my MD for my fourth stifle and to get my cantrip base back up to 15.

[jazzykat]

I think Anti and I are on the same page, except he is a bit more of a fan of enforcer and I less. However, we both say the same thing: it depends on your matchup.

[Citrus-God]

I would be abliged to aggre with Anti... enforcer is the only reason to run the white splash... red gives you more creature removal/reach... while white gives you enforcer swords and mage (mage to a lesser extent, unless you are playing combo... then it becomes the bomb)... I have been finding that the white splash has a much better fish MU than the red splash (can deal with grunt before they take our thresh)...

I would like to defend Red Gro's Fish match up though. If you run Wastedlife's old UGr Gro deck, it beats the everloving shit out of it. I know many may not believe it's true, but it's very hard to protect Confidants, Mage, and Moms when dealing with 11 Burn spells MDed. Generally, you let should have more draw power than Fish to consistently win counterwars against Fish if you have a Burn spell for Confidant so that Grunt doesnt resolve.

Against Combo, I personally dont like Meddling Mage all that much. With so many cantrips, finding an answer is easy. Solidarity and IGGy Pop will always be your best match-up. TES is questionable, and is very skill dependent on the Threshold player's part-running Meddling Mage or not. Knowing what resources to aim when analyzing the board state and piecing together the TES player's hand will always challenge the Thresh player.

what have you guys been doing in order to take care of the sudden increase in fish throughout the american meta?

Actually, Enforcer is the reason why I love playing against Fish! I'm currently am undefeated agianst Hanni Fish, and dont plan to stop doing so. Enforcer and Needles are amazing. I also love siding in my Engineered Explosives as well as Nantuko Monasteries, 3rd Enforcer, and Counterbalance.

Thankfully, with the lack of Vial Goblins, I feel that it's safe to run Meddling Mage over the Needles. Stifles shouldnt be in the deck, it's bad agianst Fish.... If you're going to replace Counterspell, run Spell Snare instead. I remember losing a game to Counter Slivers, simply because my Stifles cant counter their "Pump/Shroud" Slivers.

I have been finding that more creature removal in the MD is necessary, and I have taken needles out of my MD for my fourth stifle and to get my cantrip base back up to 15.

I dont run Meddling Mage sadly. I do play with the full set of 14 Cantrips + 2 Sensei's Divining Tops.

If you feel that you need more creature removal, why not play something that dominates the board; not only will you gain some control over the board, but also win. I'm thinking Vedalken Shackles, but then again, Nantuko Monastery is uncounterable. Personally, I prefer Monastery. IMO, it's the Control Magic of the White build. Only difference is that it cant take Enforcer, but in return, you get a proactive threat (unlike Control Magic which is reactive), and is a win condition that pressures before any move is made.

@Jazzykat: You're right. We're on the same page, but the only difference is that I do value Enforcer more highly than most people. I feel regret everytime I side him out during a match, thinking I can win.... we know that's not true. Enforcer does well in matches where I should've left him in. I remember siding out Enforcer in testing against Fish, and that went out horribly. I lose because appaerently, the more time I give them, the more they they get to recover and control the game. Usually when the game is stalled, they're in a horrible position. My mistake is not ending it before it became a problem.

[Hanni]

I'm currently am undefeated agianst Hanni Fish, and dont plan to stop doing so.

I've seen you say this like 20 or so times on this thread. Is it a good decklist? Is it a good player? My Thresh matchup used to be like 70/30... now that Flash is dominant, my Thresh matchup has gone to like 80/20. Wanna playtest sometime? Send me a PM.

Not only that, but since when has Fish (besides right now because of Flash) been enough of a metagame concern to constantly bring it up? I would think that improving the Goblins matchup would be far more important (again, except for right now because of Flash).

[Citrus-God]

I've seen you say this like 20 or so times on this thread. Is it a good decklist? Is it a good player? My Thresh matchup used to be like 70/30... now that Flash is dominant, my Thresh matchup has gone to like 80/20. Wanna playtest sometime? Send me a PM.

Sure, I'd love to. Decklist is generic. Player is questionable. I've seen many Threshold players screw up.... same way the Fish player screws up. I am just suprised at how much I lucksac against them.

Also, why not you AIM me up Hanni. My SN is obviously in my profile. AIM me up, and we can playtest a few games and stuff. My Computer is like... godawfully slow on MWS, so we may have to literally (and super old school) pick up the cards on MWS, and shuffle... since starting an actualy name game is kinda slow on my comp. This may have happened due to my excess habits of playing Poker at the same time with everything.

Not only that, but since when has Fish (besides right now because of Flash) been enough of a metagame concern to constantly bring it up? I would think that improving the Goblins matchup would be far more important (again, except for right now because of Flash).

I see improving the Goblin MU pointless. Thought, the newer tech with 8 Red Blasts does merit some testing in for meta prep.

But yes, Fish is a meta concern, because it beats so many decks. Flash is also a concern because it beats so many decks.... Because of Flash, Fish is now the #1 worry for this deck. Flash is probably a better MU for Thresh than Fish, IMO.

[Hanni]

Well, I was talking about before all of this Flash nonsense. Before that, UWb Fish wasn't even on the American metagame radar at all (Germany was the only place where I've seen the deck make multiple Top 8's). I understand completely why it would be a concern for Threshold now, but I'm not even sure Threshold is going to be a strong choice with all the Leylines floating around. Alot of decks are MD'ing Leylines, like many B/w Deadguy and Goblins lists, and almost everyone has them sideboarded. Gro is a strong option (drop Werebear for Dryad) since it gets around Leyline a little (your Mongooses still suffer), but then we aren't discussing Threshold.

I don't agree that Thresh has a better Flash matchup, but I can see points for both decks (Fish and Thresh). However, 3 Grunt + 4 Leyline out of Fish's board in combination with everything else Fish is running now (like MD Duress) really seems bad for Thresh.

If I were going to run Thresh at the GP, I'd actually run URg Gro with Dryads and Dragonauts... but that's just my personal opinion.

[Solpugid]

Depending on how many flash decks you run into playing thresh, leyline may not even be a concern. Flash players who side them in make me very happy, as the card does next to nothing and forces them to side out key control/acceleration cards.

As for leylines in the board, that's the beauty of running quirion dryads in your board for game 2.

Leylines maindeck: in fish this can lessen the overall effectiveness of the deck, allowing thresh to win regardless. If it's maindecked in goblins...well, that matchup wasn't even favorable in the first place.

[Happy Gilmore]

If I were going to run Thresh at the GP, I'd actually run URg Gro with Dryads and Dragonauts... but that's just my personal opinion.

Dragonauts seem ok, but I'm considering a build with MD Isochron Scepter as my finisher. It is anti-duress protection but can run into all those random stifles that are flying around these days.