[OLD] UGw Threshold

[Awesomator]

Fish has a very poor Aggro matchup, and there will definitely be enough aggro at the GP.

[Hanni]

Fish has a very poor Aggro matchup

Says who?

[Citrus-God]

Says who?

Yes, Fish has a very strong aggro MU. It has Mom, Avenger, Grunt, and Jitte.

[Awesomator]

Grunt doesn't do enough. Grunt is a solid wall against quick aggro for a few turns, not much more. Against a deck like goblins, you need a mom turn 1 and to survive to activate and have a creature to swing with a Jitte on it in time. Goblin decks will still run Tin Street Hooligan MD and Grips in the side. A good Goblin, Red Death, or Affinity (If you happen to play against Affinity) player will raaaaaape your face. Goblins and Red Death are still very playable. E Plague isn't even close to enough to battle Goblins, the matchups are horrendous.

[Adan]

Grunt doesn't do enough. Grunt is a solid wall against quick aggro for a few turns, not much more. Against a deck like goblins, you need a mom turn 1 and to survive to activate and have a creature to swing with a Jitte on it in time. Goblin decks will still run Tin Street Hooligan MD and Grips in the side. A good Goblin, Red Death, or Affinity (If you happen to play against Affinity) player will raaaaaape your face. Goblins and Red Death are still very playable. E Plague isn't even close to enough to battle Goblins, the matchups are horrendous.

Bullshit, UWb Fish has got good matchups overall. And it's very versatile. That's why it made multiple Top8s here in Germany, not because it was rogue (we Germans often look around here, that's why it was not a surprise that UWb Fish had it's hype). But the question was, how to beat it. But it also depends on the player and how thes set the Meddling Mages.

Anyways, isn't this supposed to be the NQG-W Thread?!
I'm going to play NQGw at the GP Straßbourg where TimeSpiral is then legal.
The only question is, if i play Imba-Grow (aka. Counterbalanced Grow) or the build with Mishra's Bauble which Tao is developing.
Mishra's Bauble allows a great setup with Predict, makes fast Threshold and pumps Tarmogoyf up.

[Awesomator]

1) Your meta is different than ours.
2)There isn't a deck that has all good matchups or else everyone would play it....
3) Kenji Tsumura agrees that the Goblin matchup is terrible for fish.
4) If it has all good matchups, then why are you playing Thresh?


Aside of that, while Flash is in the meta, there will be a lot of mirror matches, Fish matchups, and Flash. I like the counterbalance build because it gives you a nice edge in the mirror.

[Adan]

1) Your meta is different than ours.
2)There isn't a deck that has all good matchups or else everyone would play it....
3) Kenji Tsumura agrees that the Goblin matchup is terrible for fish.
4) If it has all good matchups, then why are you playing Thresh?


Aside of that, while Flash is in the meta, there will be a lot of mirror matches, Fish matchups, and Flash. I like the counterbalance build because it gives you a nice edge in the mirror.

1) My meta is different, but strongly influenced by TheSource

2) I meant that it's possible to win against everything of you got enough skill to play the Deck and set the Meddling Mages in a good way.

3) Says who? I simply drop Jitte and win with whatever is equipped with Jitte.

4) Because I nearly got everything ASIAN, chinese Tarmogoyfs included (Tarmogoyf -> STYLE-Creature!).

And yeah, I'm going to play NQG/w with Counterbalance Engine (Counterbalance wins the Mirrormatch).

[Awesomator]

3)Kenji says so. Kenji is in the all time leader board of most money made playing Magic. He is a professional Magic player, creator of Kenji Fish. Kenji's anti Goblin strategy was to trick Goblin players into over extending and board in Wrath and counter all of the card advantage.

Also good luck with getting the Jitte equipped and swinging with it, I played Goblins up until Flash decks became popular. Jitte doesn't do enough even if you get to hit with it. Good players run Tin Street + Enough removal/tutors to make sure Jitte doesn't cause any trouble. Krosan Grips in game 2 doesn't hurt either.

[Citrus-God]

3)Kenji says so. Kenji is in the all time leader board of most money made playing Magic. He is a professional Magic player, creator of Kenji Fish. Kenji's anti Goblin strategy was to trick Goblin players into over extending and board in Wrath and counter all of the card advantage.

Also good luck with getting the Jitte equipped and swinging with it, I played Goblins up until Flash decks became popular. Jitte doesn't do enough even if you get to hit with it. Good players run Tin Street + Enough removal/tutors to make sure Jitte doesn't cause any trouble. Krosan Grips in game 2 doesn't hurt either.

How'd you hear about this? I'm very curious....

[Adan]

3)Kenji says so. Kenji is in the all time leader board of most money made playing Magic. He is a professional Magic player, creator of Kenji Fish. Kenji's anti Goblin strategy was to trick Goblin players into over extending and board in Wrath and counter all of the card advantage.

Also good luck with getting the Jitte equipped and swinging with it, I played Goblins up until Flash decks became popular. Jitte doesn't do enough even if you get to hit with it. Good players run Tin Street + Enough removal/tutors to make sure Jitte doesn't cause any trouble. Krosan Grips in game 2 doesn't hurt either.

Ok, I must concede, I know, I'm german, so my argumentation won't matter at all.

But there are many ways to handle the 2 things you mentioned: Counter, Stifle and Meddling Mage (last one for Krosan Grip).

And, well, Incinerator can be stifled, too. When I played HanniFish, I automatically won the game when a Jitte hit the table.

edit: How come I've never heard of "Kenji-Fish" or the "creator"? And if this Kenji made money with Magic, he has to be a Constructed- and/or Limited-Player. And Constructed/Limited-Players often have no idea of Legacy or Vintage.

[Awesomator]

How'd you hear about this? I'm very curious....

A buddy of mine is a Fish fan and discussed Fish strategy with Kenji himself at a GP. Kenji said that in a non Goblin/Aggro meta, Fish is definitely the way to go.

@Adan: Nothing wrong with being German. I feel that you aren't playing against very strong Goblin players, just as you basically said you don't think I'm playing against top tier Fish players, so this will probably go nowhere. Maybe you haven't heard of Kenji because he's from Japan.

[Citrus-God]

A buddy of mine is a Fish fan and discussed Fish strategy with Kenji himself at a GP. Kenji said that in a non Goblin/Aggro meta, Fish is definitely the way to go.

That's kinda cool. I'm sure he does have some knowledge of Legacy, considering this is the only format the Japanese have not dominated yet....

[Awesomator]

"Bigger Fish," beamed DeRosa but his smile faded quickly as he turned his attention to his friend/opponent. "I am going to lose so fast he is playing Goblins. "That was a painful game," groaned DeRosa. "This is a bad match-up and I think it is actually better for me Game 1 than after board."

Just thought I should post that for those who were still arguing. Derosa playing Fish against Sonne playing Goblins.

I looked at the list and Bigger Fish was the list I've been quietly testing. Thought it was funny that DeRosa came up with almost the same build.

[Citrus-God]

// Chalice Gro
// Lands 17
4 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
4 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Forest
2 Island


// Creatures 12
4 Quirion Dryad
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Meddling Mage


// Spells 31
4 Brainstorm
4 Portent
4 Serum Visions
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Chalice of the Void


// Sideboard 15
2 Naturalize
3 Engineered Explosives
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Stifle
3 Misdirection


Chalice is something I am still testing right now. It might just be MDed Leylines instead.

Chalice for Zero is all for Hulk Flash. It can counter Lotus Petals, and 8 Pacts. Why not to run them? I gave myself a cool way to win counterwars. MDed Leylines might be better. I'm still tossing this list around, and was somewhat okay with it. IMO, cutting them off from 4 Tutors, 4 Counters, and 4 Mana Accelerants is much better than cutting them off from 4 Proteak Hulks. Besides, they'll have a much harder time trying to answer Chalice via Chain of Vapor due to the absence of Lotus Petals.

So question is, Chalice v.s. Leyline?

[aTn]

Chalice at 0 is also cool vs. Crypt. Your SB and MD don't seem all that hot for the Goblins match-up. Am I missing something ?

Would a cantrip list like:

4 Brainstorm
3 Serum Visions
3 Portent
2 Predict

be interesting (I like predict a lot) ?

[Illissius]

If you aren't running Mongeese, you could try Jittes.

[Citrus-God]

If you aren't running Mongeese, you could try Jittes.

I actually thought about that.... now to actually try it.

[Citrus-God]

I guess we're back. So here's the question now; how do we break Goyf?

[Cait_Sith]

I guess we're back. So here's the question now; how do we break Goyf?

By not running it. I really don't see the advantage of running Goyf over Bear unless you plan to walk into a world of Thresh hate. If you get Threshold turns 3-4 on average, then often Goyf will be the same size (or 1 smaller) by the time you start swinging. Also, Goyf doesn't tap for mana. That is huge and alone prevents Goyf from being truly superior than Werebear in Thresh.

[aTn]

If you get Threshold turns 3-4 on average, then often Goyf will be the same size (or 1 smaller) by the time you start swinging.

My testing results kind of don't agree with that statement. Goyf is usually 3/4 by turn 2-3 (Land, Instant, Sorcery or Countered Creature/Artifact/Sorcery in yard) and reaches 4/5-5/6 by mid-game (I play with 2 EE and 2 Needles MD so this might help to make a bigger Goyf - EDIT: Also, 3 Chill come in vs. Gobs). What I like with Goyf is that you have the possibility of putting early game pressure on your opponent while building your threshold and whatnot.

I've tested Goyf against Goblins and I think there is no comparison with Werebear here; having your graveyard removed and a little puny fanatic (or worst Pyrokinesis) killing your Bear(s) is annoying. Having to keep Bears in hand until reaching Threshold is also annoying when facing Wasteland, Port and CotV (which kind of slows down your threshold building plans if it hits the board@1). I can't remember one game where I thought: "I wish Goyf could tap for G".

The best advice I'd give you is to try it at a couple of tournaments/playtesting sessions and see how many match-ups are improved (or not). My experience has been positive but I can't say if my match-ups were representative of your metagame.

The questions I'd like to ask now are:

Assuming Goyf is to be included in UG(W/R)-Thresh, what creature suite should be played ?

In a more aggro environment, could Meddling Mage be put in the SB ? If so, what should be his replacement ?