[Deck] Suicide Black

[georgjorge]

Depending on the number of one-drops you run yourself (I run four Duress and four Ritual, as well as four Sarcomancies which get boarded out in the relevant matchups), I would STRONGLY suggest running Chalice in the board against Thresh, Burn, Combo in general. Played on the second turn for one, it negates more than half of Thresh's spells (and, most importantly, their removal). Not SO strong against Burn, but still a lot of help. With Ritual on the first turn, it's even sillier (but then, what isn't).

I've been playing some versions with light splashes, but my biggest problem seems to be against UGR Thresh/Gro, since their creatures are cheap, bigger, and burn can take care of all my creatures. I would need some big creature besides Negator here, but in the 3cc-range all I can think of is Gathan Raiders, which can be burned anyway as soon as I draw a card. Dystopia and Chalice helps, but I'm not sure it's enough...

As for post-FS lists...I don't see a lot of reason to stay in one color only, because those lists really don't seem to care much about Wasteland anyway, and it gets so much better just by adding a) red for burn or b) green for Goyfs or c) blue for Daze. Are there any reasons against this besides Wasteland and one or two fetchland damage per game ?

[blackguard90]

Depending on the number of one-drops you run yourself (I run four Duress and four Ritual, as well as four Sarcomancies which get boarded out in the relevant matchups), I would STRONGLY suggest running Chalice in the board against Thresh, Burn, Combo in general. Played on the second turn for one, it negates more than half of Thresh's spells (and, most importantly, their removal). Not SO strong against Burn, but still a lot of help. With Ritual on the first turn, it's even sillier (but then, what isn't).

I've been playing some versions with light splashes, but my biggest problem seems to be against UGR Thresh/Gro, since their creatures are cheap, bigger, and burn can take care of all my creatures. I would need some big creature besides Negator here, but in the 3cc-range all I can think of is Gathan Raiders, which can be burned anyway as soon as I draw a card. Dystopia and Chalice helps, but I'm not sure it's enough...

As for post-FS lists...I don't see a lot of reason to stay in one color only, because those lists really don't seem to care much about Wasteland anyway, and it gets so much better just by adding a) red for burn or b) green for Goyfs or c) blue for Daze. Are there any reasons against this besides Wasteland and one or two fetchland damage per game ?

Well are several problems with B/x Sui:

1) Not a single creature is resiliant like Tarmogoyf. Post-FS B/x decks don't have removal at all. So Negator becomes less effective, Giant get owned by MD leyline or even SB leyline, and everything else have 1 or 2 toughness.

2) B/G has goyf, but that is about it. Rancor and Beserk just don't do the job that bolt and chain do.

3) B/U sui: Ok, you have stifle here. Daze isn't effective in a light splash, force is worthless, and there isn't any good creatures to add.

4) B/W sui: Swords to plowshare is probably the only reason here, vindicate really sucks IMO at 3 mana

5) B/R sui: Still the best splash. I have removed all LD elements from the deck and added confidants and jittes. One of my previous versions ran 4x cabal therapies, which I found to be so good at times, and sucked at other times. My current version runs 4x Lightning Bolt and 3x Chain lightning, with 3 jittes and 18 creatures (3 giant 3 confidants). This might have weakened my flash match-up slightly, but it has made my other match-ups a lot better. I will leave my sideboard to kill flash.

Chalice is O.K., but it always gets countered on turn 2 against thresh, and it might be too slow against flash.

Currently I am trying out a very very suicidal deck that runs gathan, drekavac, chrome mox, leylines and others. I'll post a deck list tommorow.

[technogeek5000]

Here is the list im thinking of bringing to 4x U Sea in chicopee Mass.

Creatures:
4 Confidant
4 Hippie
4 Sarcomancy
3 Carnophage
3 Negator

Control:
4 unmask
4 Duress
3 Diabolic edict
3 Sinkhole
2 Ghastly demise
2 Cabal therapy

Mana:
4 dark ritual
17 Swamp
3 wasteland

Sideboard
4 leyline
4 E plauge
3 null rod
2 Serum powder
2 contaigon

This list has a good flash matchup without sacrificing to much for the other 4/5 of the format. I think 6 leylines is enough because you only need one leyline and if they bounce it you have bought enough time to control them and/or play a utility creature like confidant and hippie.

Lol i made a error on my list. Apparently there is 61 cards. Im takin out a diabolic edict.

On a more serious note i would like to know which is better to run in the sideboard. Contaigon hits Bill stark style sui and fish (half decent against goblins) but Dystopia hits threshold which is a popular deck and a bad matchup for Sui Black.

Please use the edit button to correct mistakes in a post, rather than double posting. Thank you.

[Tacosnape]

I've skipped the whole Land destruction approach and gone strictly for discard. My current list is identical to Bill Stark's, only with -4 Wasteland +4 Swamp. Pure basic lands for the win.

Also, Serum Powder in board? Unnecessary now. I replaced them with Cabal Therapy. So now I maindeck Duress/Hymn/Unmask and board Cabal Therapy.

...On an unrelated note, it's freaking impossible to find Unmasks. There aren't even any on Ebay. Anyone know a good place to find them?

[tylerwylie]

I've skipped the whole Land destruction approach and gone strictly for discard. My current list is identical to Bill Stark's, only with -4 Wasteland +4 Swamp. Pure basic lands for the win.

Also, Serum Powder in board? Unnecessary now. I replaced them with Cabal Therapy. So now I maindeck Duress/Hymn/Unmask and board Cabal Therapy.

...On an unrelated note, it's freaking impossible to find Unmasks. There aren't even any on Ebay. Anyone know a good place to find them?

With Flash getting banned, I'm going to to a list that runs 4 duress 4 hymn, 4 sinkhole 4 wasteland and the rest basics, and probably 2 cabal therapy as well as 4 Black Knight and 4 Hand of Cruelty/or/Stromgald Crusader/or/Knights of Stromgald.

[Tacosnape]

With Flash getting banned, I'm going to to a list that runs 4 duress 4 hymn, 4 sinkhole 4 wasteland and the rest basics, and probably 2 cabal therapy as well as 4 Black Knight and 4 Hand of Cruelty/or/Stromgald Crusader/or/Knights of Stromgald.

This is workable. I like the pro-white guys.

I don't, however, like Black Knight as opposed to any of those other three. The reason for this is that this is a format with a lot of 3/3's and 4/4's. Black Knight can't swing into these.

Hand of Cruelty at least trades with a Mongoose on the swing.

Ebon Hand is a better choice than Knights of Stromgald if you're running the Crusader, as Ebon Hand is a Cleric and this makes you less vulnerable to Engineered Plague. Ebon Hand/KoS can both swing into a Mongoose and kill it with three mana available. They can take down a Werebear with 4, and take down a Werebear and live with 5.

Stromgald Crusader also should be run if you try Sarcomancy, as Stromgald Crusader's a zombie as well as a knight.

[technogeek5000]

So i took the drive up to the 4x Sea tourney. I took 2nd place but there was only 10 people who showed for it. We had 3 rounds then cut to top 4.

Sui black, by technogeek5000:
Creatures(17)
4 dark confidant
4 Hippie
3 Phyrexian negator
3 Sarcomancy
3 carnophage

Control(19):
4 Unmask
4 duress
3 Hymn to tourach
3 sink hole
3 Diabolic edict
2 Ghastly Demise

Mana(24)
17 Swamps
4 dark ritual
3 Wasteland

Sideboard(15):
4 Leyline
4 E plauge
3 Null rod
2 Dystopia
2 Contaigon

Round 1, Chris with hulk flash (disciple kill) 2-0:
I start with a turn 1 duress yanking mystical. I wait a turn and play a sinkhole on island, waste targeting u sea, and I unmask taking a Protean Hulk. I lay down a few beaters and ride it out.

I sideboard in 4 leylines.

He chooses to draw(?) and start the game wiht a leyline. I cast a dark rit and play 2x duress and a carnophage. Next turn 2 more zombies come but sarc gets dazed. I lay a confidant and draw into 3x hippie.

1-0 (2-0)

Round 2 Matt with Belcher 2-0:
I dont remeber much of the first game. I know he mulls to five and i rape his hand over the course of the game with duress hymn and unmask. Beaters finish it.

I sideboard in 3 null rods:

He lays a buncha artifacts and i get a turn 2 null rod. Some hippies and discard slow him down long enough for multiple zombies to take it home.

2-0 (4-0)

Round 3, Ben with goblins 2-1:
He doesnt lay any goblins and i cast some zombies plus dark confiant. Mogg and Gelmpalm incinerator clear the way for a lackey and its ova.

I sidebaord in 2 Contaigons and 4 Engineered plauges

I get a turn 1 plauge. This holds him off letting me lay down a confidant and kill his green mana source. I wait a few turns and hymn him taking krosan grip and play negator. he responds by scooping.

I get a turn 3 plauge and confidant helps me get to another. He never sees any enchantment removal he can cast and they go all the way.

3-0(6-1)

Top 4, Matt again with belcher 2-1:
He gets a early 10 goblins and i cant hold them off.

I sideboard in 3 null rods and 2 Plauges.

I get a early null rod and right before he kills me with 10 gobbs i topdeck intoplauge. Carnophage takes me to 1 and him to 2. I wait around 4 turns and get negator to finish it.

I sideboard in another plauge

He combos off incorrectly as he dumps his hand and burning wishes, only to find out he never put ETW back in the sideboard. We shake hands and i find out i will be playing matt one more time.

4-0(8-2)

Finals, Ben with gobbs 0-2:

My deck shits out on me both games. I have to mull to five and goblins overwhelm me.

I sideboard in 4 plauges and 2 contaigons

I have to mull to 5 again and i draw 4 lands in a row. This gives him time to put in around 6 goblins. I never see a Plauge.

4-1(8-4)

So I get a FBB Bayou for my troubles and 4 DCI foil zoetic caverns (in addition to the DCI Foil Yixlid Jailer i got for participating). I had a blast as this is the first time i ever cracked top 8.

Props:
My dad for driving 3 hours throughout the day.
My sidebopard for being teh absolute ballz all day
My opponents for being polite and great to play against.
The store owner for a great event

Slops:
10 people showed (seriously... go to these things)
God for making it friggin downpour and nearly making us crash the car.

Tng5000,

[Hummingbird TG]

Your build seems awfully like Deadguy minus the white(and thus, Vindicate), Techno...Without Vindicate for support, do you find the 3 Sinkholes doing enough?

[technogeek5000]

3 sinkholes have been working for me good in conjunction with wasteland. Part of the time it acts as a time walk, netting me a extra land drop... and the rest of the time it keeps people off of colors (For me today, it kept belcher off of red and goblins off of green). Only a small part of the time is sinkhole ever dead.

[blackguard90]

So i took the drive up to the 4x Sea tourney. I took 2nd place but there was only 10 people who showed for it. We had 3 rounds then cut to top 4.

Sui black, by technogeek5000:
Creatures(17)
4 dark confidant
4 Hippie
3 Phyrexian negator
3 Sarcomancy
3 carnophage

Control(19):
4 Unmask
4 duress
3 Hymn to tourach
3 sink hole
3 Diabolic edict
2 Ghastly Demise

Mana(24)
17 Swamps
4 dark ritual
3 Wasteland

Sideboard(15):
4 Leyline
4 E plauge
3 Null rod
2 Dystopia
2 Contaigon

Round 1, Chris with hulk flash (disciple kill) 2-0:
I start with a turn 1 duress yanking mystical. I wait a turn and play a sinkhole on island, waste targeting u sea, and I unmask taking a Protean Hulk. I lay down a few beaters and ride it out.

I sideboard in 4 leylines.

He chooses to draw(?) and start the game wiht a leyline. I cast a dark rit and play 2x duress and a carnophage. Next turn 2 more zombies come but sarc gets dazed. I lay a confidant and draw into 3x hippie.

1-0 (2-0)

Round 2 Matt with Belcher 2-0:
I dont remeber much of the first game. I know he mulls to five and i rape his hand over the course of the game with duress hymn and unmask. Beaters finish it.

I sideboard in 3 null rods:

He lays a buncha artifacts and i get a turn 2 null rod. Some hippies and discard slow him down long enough for multiple zombies to take it home.

2-0 (4-0)

Round 3, Matt with goblins 2-1:
He doesnt lay any goblins and i cast some zombies plus dark confiant. Mogg and Gelmpalm incinerator clear the way for a lackey and its ova.

I sidebaord in 2 Contaigons and 4 Engineered plauges

I get a turn 1 plauge. This holds him off letting me lay down a confidant and kill his green mana source. I wait a few turns and hymn him taking krosan grip and play negator. he responds by scooping.

I get a turn 3 plauge and confidant helps me get to another. He never sees any enchantment removal he can cast and they go all the way.

3-0(6-1)

Top 4, Ben again with belcher 2-1:
He gets a early 10 goblins and i cant hold them off.

I sideboard in 3 null rods and 2 Plauges.

I get a early null rod and right before he kills me with 10 gobbs i topdeck intoplauge. Carnophage takes me to 1 and him to 2. I wait around 4 turns and get negator to finish it.

I sideboard in another plauge

He combos off incorrectly as he dumps his hand and burning wishes, only to find out he never put them back in the sideboard. We shake hands and i find out i will be playing matt one more time.

4-0(8-2)

Finals, Matt with gobbs 0-2:

My deck shits out on me both games. I have to mull to five and goblins overwhelm me.

I sideboard in 4 plauges and 2 contaigons

I have to mull to 5 again and i draw 4 lands in a row. This gives him time to put in around 6 goblins. I never see a Plauge.

4-1(8-4)

So I get a FBB Bayou for my troubles and 4 DCI foil zoetic caverns (in addition to the DCI Foil Yixlid Jailer i got for participating). I had a blast as this is the first time i ever cracked top 8.

Props:
My dad for driving 3 hours throughout the day.
My sidebopard for being teh absolute ballz all day
My opponents for being polite and great to play against.
The store owner for a great event

Slops:
10 people showed (seriously... go to these things)
God for making it friggin downpour and nearly making us crash the car.

Tng5000,

well, since flash is no longer a deck you can take out unmasks for something else that improves your other match-ups. I would take them out for either more creatures (gator, sarc, phage, a sinkhole) or put in jittes, removal and a hymn. I would change contagions to dystopias in board. Also, if you are playing 6 zombies, why not play 4 sarc and 2 phages? Sarc can be sacked, and it doesn;t damage you initially.

Finnally, gratz on the good finish.

[technogeek5000]

Yah, unmasks are departing my list. Im going to make the following changes to my list.

Maindeck:
-4 Unmask
-1 Duress

+1 Carnophage
+1 Sarcomancy
+1 Hymn to tourach
+1 Diabolic edict
+1 Ghastly demise

Sideboard:
-4 Leyline

+3 Planar void
+1 Duress

This is basically allows me to beat goblins game 1 because i have more removal and less dead cards maindeck (duress kinda sucks ass vs. gobbs).

The 2 contaigons didnt do shit for me all day, but thats probably because i played against combo most of the day. Im not sure if Dystopia > Contaigon because Contaigon is good against fish, gobbs, Amazing against bill stark sui. But i guess fish is already a pretty good matchup and goblins gets better with 2 additional goblins.

[georgjorge]

Well are several problems with B/x Sui:

Not a single creature is resiliant like Tarmogoyf. Post-FS B/x decks don't have removal at all. So Negator becomes less effective, Giant get owned by MD leyline or even SB leyline, and everything else have 1 or 2 toughness.

I don't understand that reasoning. Why should B/x decks not have any removal ? You know, it's not like somebody's FORCING you to cut your Edicts and Demises for cards in other colors...

As for your other points...yes, B/g has only the Goyf going for it, and B/u the Daze (I don't know why you say that Daze is less effective than Stifle in a light splash), but seeing as there's virtually no disadvantage to splashing a second color, the deck will STILL get better by adding four copies of those cards.

Chalice is O.K., but it always gets countered on turn 2 against thresh [...]

Which can also be said for...Hymn, Giant, Goyf, Shade, Sinkhole, and so on. EVERY card can be countered turn two against Thresh, but the key to do well in this matchup is to use your discard to get their counters first, and to overload their defense with cards they NEED to counter.

[technogeek5000]

Does anyone have a Green death list i could draw ideas from. Ive been thinking about testing it because i have enouh bayous now

I agree with george. Chalice should stick against thresh because your probably duressing/hymning/etc... them first. And you shouldnt jugde a card because it can get countered because nearly all cards in the game have this potential.

[georgjorge]

A Green Death list...well, I suppose you take out the creatures you need the least (for me, that would be Hippies), and put in four Tarmogoyf...and MAYBE, if it fits for you, one or two Rancor. The only other cards I can think now off the top of my head are sideboard cards: Spreading Algae and Compost for the mirror.

My list, which I have constantly refined and find to do pretty well now, is...

8 Fetchlands
4 Bayou
4 Wasteland
2 Swamp
2 Ritual
2 Chrome Mox
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

4 Negator
4 Goyf
4 Sarcomancy
3 Giant
2 Shade
1 Stromgald Crusader
1 Carnophage

4 Duress
4 Hymn
4 Sinkhole
3 Demise
2 Blackmail
1 Rancid Earth


Sideboard:

4 Chalice
3 Stromgald Crusader
3 Dystopia
3 Pithing Needle
2 Ostracize (super secret anti-goblins and anti-vial tech)

[technogeek5000]

Umm yah please play 4 dark ritual. Its the undeniable best card in the whole deck and probably one of the best black cards ever printed. I dont see black mail doin much for you so id probably take out 2 of those for 2 more dark ritual.

And why would you not play Engineered plauge, and why ostrasize. So you take 1 of there goblins for 1 of your cards, big deal. E plauge nearly clears there entire board and the creatures it doesnt kill it makes them weak enough to easily deal with. I have never lost a game against goblins after i have gotten plauge out.

[ForceofWill]

I was the goblin player and for the record my name is Ben not Matt. and Matt played belcher

[technogeek5000]

Sorry got you 2 confused. My only notes were life counts. Ill fix that now.

[blackguard90]

A Green Death list...well, I suppose you take out the creatures you need the least (for me, that would be Hippies), and put in four Tarmogoyf...and MAYBE, if it fits for you, one or two Rancor. The only other cards I can think now off the top of my head are sideboard cards: Spreading Algae and Compost for the mirror.

My list, which I have constantly refined and find to do pretty well now, is...

8 Fetchlands
4 Bayou
4 Wasteland
2 Swamp
2 Ritual
2 Chrome Mox
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

4 Negator
4 Goyf
4 Sarcomancy
3 Giant
2 Shade
1 Stromgald Crusader
1 Carnophage

4 Duress
4 Hymn
4 Sinkhole
3 Demise
2 Blackmail
1 Rancid Earth


Sideboard:

4 Chalice
3 Stromgald Crusader
3 Dystopia
3 Pithing Needle
2 Ostracize (super secret anti-goblins and anti-vial tech)

any reasons for the singletons? Carno and Strom should be shades, you don't need so many zombies just to satisfy sarco, and giant is a zombie... (or shades+strom should be carnos). Ok, rotting giants and tarmo is very bad synergy, and also bad with demise.

Singleton rancid is pointless. It kills some of your guys and 3 mana for LD is subpar to sinkhole. I would play jittes or edicts over blackmail, because you don't really need more than 8 pieces of disruption for most of the time, plus your chalice at one shuts down blackmail and your zombies/demise.

Thirdly, 2x chrome mox is hardly an arguement over 4x dark ritual. You either play 4x ritual, or both mox and ritual.

Ostrasize sucks, tested it way way back. Encroach sucks too .

So:

-1 Rancid
-3 Giant
-2 Blackmail
-1 Stromgald
-1 Urborg (no reason just for wasteland, and it also gets wasted and sometimes helps others (mirror, r death etc))
-2 Mox

+1 Demise
+2 Ritual
+2 swamp
+3 carno
+2 shade/edict/jitte/rancor

[georgjorge]

As for Mox vs. Ritual...I've stated my reasons over in the Red Death thread.

Plague vs. Ostracize: I find that the main source of my losses versus Goblins comes from one card - Ringleader. Even with Plague out, a good Ringleader (like...Matron + Piledriver) can cause a loss very fast, especially if he fetches you another one, since you will be facing some big Piledrivers backed up by Incinerators no matter the -1/-1. Since land destruction doesn't always work that well there thanks to Vial, I think it's best to get rid of the Ringleader before it hits play. Also, there are almost no matchups besides Goblins where Plague comes in handy, whereas Ostracize does (basically, most decks playing Vial).

The singleton Crusader...well, the reason is I want to play four in many matchups, but don't have room in the sideboard anymore. Bad reasoning, probably, and it being a shade is probably better.

The singleton Rancid Earth...Obviously worse than Sinkhole, but land destruction gets better cumulatively, since destroying one land does nothing most of the time, while destroying three can give you the game. So, I decided I needed a bit more of that.

Blackmail...it's good. You can even cast it on their first turn, and almost always get some lands offered to you, following up on that with Wasteland or Sinkhole.

Giant - Goyf - Demise: Bad synergy, but it doesn't matter. You don't remove much more than two or three cards with Giants in a game, and I have NEVER had the Goyf getting smaller because of them, as there are always multiple lands/sorceries in the graveyards.

[technogeek5000]

As for Mox vs. Ritual...I've stated my reasons over in the Red Death thread.

Plague vs. Ostracize: I find that the main source of my losses versus Goblins comes from one card - Ringleader. Even with Plague out, a good Ringleader (like...Matron + Piledriver) can cause a loss very fast, especially if he fetches you another one, since you will be facing some big Piledrivers backed up by Incinerators no matter the -1/-1. Since land destruction doesn't always work that well there thanks to Vial, I think it's best to get rid of the Ringleader before it hits play. Also, there are almost no matchups besides Goblins where Plague comes in handy, whereas Ostracize does (basically, most decks playing Vial).

The singleton Crusader...well, the reason is I want to play four in many matchups, but don't have room in the sideboard anymore. Bad reasoning, probably, and it being a shade is probably better.

The singleton Rancid Earth...Obviously worse than Sinkhole, but land destruction gets better cumulatively, since destroying one land does nothing most of the time, while destroying three can give you the game. So, I decided I needed a bit more of that.

Blackmail...it's good. You can even cast it on their first turn, and almost always get some lands offered to you, following up on that with Wasteland or Sinkhole.

Giant - Goyf - Demise: Bad synergy, but it doesn't matter. You don't remove much more than two or three cards with Giants in a game, and I have NEVER had the Goyf getting smaller because of them, as there are always multiple lands/sorceries in the graveyards.

#1 Ostracize doesnt helps versus goblins, so you take out a ringleader, they play 4 matrons which make it easier to find. E plauge is good because it makes all there creatures weaker. Piledriver will have 1 toughness... easily handled with a zombie.

#2 If they reveal a land with blackmail then they obviously have enough lands to play with. Playing 2 more creature removal would benefit you more.