[Deck] Belcher

[laststepdown]

Also, Street Wraith is horrible because it will never up the storm count.

I haven't even liked it as a Dredge enabler, honestly. Reliability on free cycling is relying on dead draws, IMHO. I dunno, it's late.

[honz]

@Breathweapon: in the relatively short testing i have done with your list (near the top of page 4), i have been rather un-impressed. Almost every hand with a serum powder is a hand that you mull. One major problem i have been having, is that serum removes that hand from the game. Too often i end up drawing hands with 3+ win-cons and a serum; in which i am forced to remove them from the game. I then have a very hard time drawing into a half-decent hand with a win-con. Also, i often end up removing my land from the game, only to draw into a few land grants.

Also, the sheer number of times i cycle wraith into a dead card is amazing. Assuming you have a decent hand (1 win-con, 4-5 mana, 1 wraith), the number of cards you could draw dead on is amazing. Between drawing powders, extra win-cons, dead moxes, dead land grants, uncastable tinder walls, or useless LEDs. Its just not worth it IMHO.


I would also like to hear what other people do as far as SBing. My method is best described as:
in: shattering sprees, or pyroblasts (as needed)
Out: combination of cantors, land grants, and dark rituals.

however, i have yet to try out xantid swarms, and I am wondering how good they really are here.

[BreathWeapon]

@Breathweapon: in the relatively short testing i have done with your list (near the top of page 4), i have been rather un-impressed. Almost every hand with a serum powder is a hand that you mull. One major problem i have been having, is that serum removes that hand from the game. Too often i end up drawing hands with 3+ win-cons and a serum; in which i am forced to remove them from the game. I then have a very hard time drawing into a half-decent hand with a win-con. Also, i often end up removing my land from the game, only to draw into a few land grants.

Also, the sheer number of times i cycle wraith into a dead card is amazing. Assuming you have a decent hand (1 win-con, 4-5 mana, 1 wraith), the number of cards you could draw dead on is amazing. Between drawing powders, extra win-cons, dead moxes, dead land grants, uncastable tinder walls, or useless LEDs. Its just not worth it IMHO.


I would also like to hear what other people do as far as SBing. My method is best described as:
in: shattering sprees, or pyroblasts (as needed)
Out: combination of cantors, land grants, and dark rituals.

however, i have yet to try out xantid swarms, and I am wondering how good they really are here.

Serum Powder causes every hand you drew to be a Serum Powder mulligan any way? So every six card hand you draw after a mulligan is worthless? It's just not statistically possible. I have 500+ MWS logs of goldfishing with Serum Powder and Street Wraith, and if you are finding Serum Powder and Street Wraith sub optimal, it's either because your sample size is too low or you don't know how to mulligan. Serum Powdering with a Taiga in hand is a definite mistake, you can mulligan any hand with Serum Powder in it.

A second Land Grant is never dead, it either protects the first Land Grant from a counter spell or it increases the storm for Empty the Warrens, it's similar for Chrome Mox and Lion's Eye Diamond (and if you have Burning Wish you can go for Diminishing Returns), and I have never seen a dead Chrome Mox or Tinder Wall in my life. If you can't use the Chrome Mox to imprint another spell and turn it into a permanent mana source, and if you don't have a green mana source or a Chrome Mox out of 17 cards in the deck, you need to reconsider the hands you are keeping.

@Laststepdown, Street Wraith doesn't have to generate storm as long as the card it cycles into generates storm, and that's pretty much 75 percent of the deck. You should never be relying on Street Wraith to save your hand, you just hope Street Wraith makes your hand better.

@Alfred, I actually think Belcher is exactly like that, because you find one card you need, and then you count on the rest of the cards in your hand to facilitate that card. It's really the same difference with Mishra's Workshop or Bazaar of Baghdad, but the appearance of the Mishra's Worshop or the Bazaar of Baghdad facilitating the other cards is just an illusion, because with out the other cards, the card you Serum Powdered for would be useless.

@ In general,

WTF at SBing out Land Grant?

[laststepdown]

@Laststepdown, Street Wraith doesn't have to generate storm as long as the card it cycles into generates storm, and that's pretty much 75 percent of the deck. You should never be relying on Street Wraith to save your hand, you just hope Street Wraith makes your hand better.

I guess that's the difference. Your build of Belcher 'hopes' it has a good hand, while CRET belcher knows indefinitely. I recommend starting a new thread and leaving this one pure. I'm just saying.

[Bane of the Living]

I guess that's the difference. Your build of Belcher 'hopes' it has a good hand, while CRET belcher knows indefinitely. I recommend starting a new thread and leaving this one pure. I'm just saying.

Thats like saying CRET belcher doesnt have room for innovation or development. Too bad CRET belcher is a an innovation of old belcher lists. Whats the point in spamming up the source with 2 different belcher decks when only one will eventually be superior? Its not like we're discussing CRET vs Severence Belcer.

I havent played any games with the powder/sw version but Ive played quite a few with Wild Cantor and he sucks sucks sucks.

Also leaving in Bayou kinda creates the whole "Spoils of the Vault ftl" feeling when you flip it after activating belcher. This deck shouldnt lose to itself.

If we were to focus on just r/g belcher without adding the null space cards, what else could we add? Would welder make its way in the cantors spot? Ive wished it was the goblin so much.

[Peter_Rotten]

Although Wild Cantor is far from an amazing card, I think that he serves an useful role. Besides the Ritual mana fix, he helps increase mana the next turn when played off of a land. We discussed his benefits extensively, so I think it is hardly fair to say he "sucks sucks sucks." If I was forced to remove him, I might consider BoP over Welder.

The problem here is that we have about 7 cards (combination of Cantors and Dark Rituals) that are of somewhat weaker value than other cards in the deck. Unfortunately, I have yet to see any cards suggested that are better than those 7.

[kicks_422]

however, i have yet to try out xantid swarms, and I am wondering how good they really are here.

You know a card is good when aggro-control starts digging for StP against a combo deck.

That said, I think it pretty much deserves SB slots in Belcher, probably even MD. I refuse to play combo with no less than 4 Swarms and 4 Duress MD, but that's just me.

[BreathWeapon]

I think you'd either add Xantid Swarms and Living Wishes or a full set of Blasts, so you can fight against control's counter wall and mulligan less for a win condition or play on the stack. I think the full set of Blasts is more of a SB plan tho', because you usually want to SB out Burning Wish, SB in the Empty the Warrens, and then cut the Seething Songs, because, 3 mana is the choke point at which a control player will counter your mana source to stop you from using an SG to reach 4, and the full set of blasts can't protect your Seething Song or your Burning Wish + LED plays (you can only really do this with Serum Powder tho').

I think people who keep dissing Serum Powder and Street Wraith have no clue what they're actually talking about. CRET Belcher mulligans to six cards and five cards like it was it's job. You're just getting more free mulligans out of Serum Powder and less bad belcher activations from Street Wraith instead of the Dark Ritual, Wild Cantor and Bayou package. Any one can pilot 11 win conditions and 49 mana sources and win games, but it actually takes some skill to learn how to mulligan with Serum Powder and Street Wraith.

@Peter, nothing about Dark Ritual and Wild Cantor is strong to begin with, people just use them because CRET Belcher put up results and no one questioned it other than people who already played Belcher before CRET Belcher. I think Serum Powder and Street Wraith are objectively more powerful cards as far as consistency is concerned, and even I think the old R/g Living Wish and Xantid Swarm package was better than CRET Belcher. Just adding any form of disruption in those slots could be objectively better tho', and I think that it actually is, because if you look at CRET Belcher's SBing it's always Dark Ritual and Wild Cantor out and disruption in against any deck that doesn't die to the goldfish.

[TheMightyQuinn]

Any one can pilot 11 win conditions and 49 mana sources and win games, but it actually takes some skill to learn how to mulligan with Serum Powder and Street Wraith.

If it already wins in the "11 wincon, 49 mana" configuration (like you just said it does) why should we complicate things further by making mulligans more "skill intensive"?

[BreathWeapon]

If it already wins in the "11 wincon, 49 mana" configuration (like you just said it does) why should we complicate things further by making mulligans more "skill intensive"?

Because if you're worried about making Belcher more skill intensive, when that skill intensiveness improves the deck's card advantage, card quality and consistency, then you shouldn't be playing MTG at all. Saying, if it's not broke, don't fix it, is like saying we should stop short of optimizing anything and accept it as the best. There's nothing worse than that in a card game, because you should always be re-evaluating your position from square one just to constantly evolve, get better and stay ahead of the curve. It's the people who incessantly tinker with everything over and over again that find all of the cool tech, make all of the insane plays and it always pays off for them in the end. Are you a Spike, or are you just a lazy Johnny?

[Peter_Rotten]

In the interest of fairness, I figured I'd post some sample opening hands with Street Wraith and ask this question: Does SW increase your goldfish turn and/or consistency?

Deck:

• Standard build listed on the 1st page with the following modifications: 4 Tinder Walls, 3 Dark Rituals.
• Physical Deck (not MWS or Apprentice - not sure if this really matters to anyone)

Methods:

• Playing vs. Non Disruptive Goldfish
• Playing first
• Attempting to Belch ASAP or
• Attempting to put out as many tokens as possible ASAP
• I accepted only 7 card opening hands with Wild Cantors.
• I analyzed those hands and then pretended that the Cantors were Wraiths
• I recorded all cards cycled into from SW
• I ignored all Dark Ritual cards (I didn't want to take Serum Powder/Dark Ritual into this analysis)
• For the sake of space and sanity, I have used a massive amount of abbreviations; please ask if you are not sure what my abbreviations stands for.
• Cantor and Street Wraith is listed as follows: Cantor/SW --> Cycled Card
• Black hands were not significantly improved by SW cycle
• Red hands were worsened by SW cycle
• Blue hands were significantly improved by SW cycle
  
  

Hand 1
Cantor/SWraith --> TinderWall
Bwish
ESG
Belcher
LGrant
Petal
TWall

1st turn Belcher; no activation either way


Hand 2
TWall
DespRitual
LED
SSG
ESG
BWish
Cantor/SWraith --> LED

Cantor gives 13 1/1s; SW gives 12 1/1s. I don't consider this a case of SW significantly worsening the hand or opening turn.


Hand 3
Cantor/SW --> Cantor/SW --> Seething Song
Cantor/SW --> BWish
Petal
LED
ETW
SSG
DespRitual

Cantor has no worthy turn one play. If you keep the SW hand, it gives you 12 tokens at the cost of 8 life or 10 tokens at the cost of 7 life. Risky, but I'd take it.


Hand 4
ETW
Twall
Cantor/SW --> ESG
SSong
SSG
Belcher
LED

I'd likely keep either hand. Cantor gives you a turn 2 Belcher activation; SW gives you a turn 1 or the option of making 8 tokens.


Hand 5
Mox
Cantor/SW --> Taiga (this is an interesting issue)
Cantor/SW --> ESG
ESG
ESG
BWish
LGrant

Either build makes tokens on turn 2, but Cantor increases the storm. Do you keep a double SW hand? That's a lot of information you are lacking.


Hand 6
SSG
Cantor/SW --> SSG
LED
LED
Belcher
LGrant
Rite

Cantor allows for a turn 2 Belcher activation. SW turn one.


Hand 7
Rite
SSong
Cantor/SW --> Rite
LED
Twall
DespRit
Mox

Mulligan for either build.


Hand 8
Cantor/SW --> LGrant
Cantor/SW --> DespRit
LED
ETW
ETW
SSong
BWish

Mulligan for the Cantor build. Would SW proponents mulligan this also? I would assume so.


Hand 9
Cantor/SW --> Cantor/SW --> SSong
Cantor/SW --> SSong
ETW
Belch
Mox
Mox
Twall

Cantor hand is keepable but not great and would likely aim for turn 2 Belcher, turn 3 activation. SW hand becomes horrible if kept.


Hand 10
Belcher
Belcher
Bwish
Bwish
Cantor/SW --> Twall
DespRit
ETW

LOLcakes. I don't care if SW cycles into Black Lotus, this hand may officially be the dumbest Belcher hand ever.


Hand 11
LGrant
SSG
ESG
Mox
Bwish
Cantor/SW --> SSG
ETW

Cantor makes 8 tokens. SW makes 6. I assume SW proponents would keep this hand.


Hand 12
Cantor/SW --> LGrant
Bwish
Petal
SSG
ETW
ETW
Twall

Cantor gets a likely mulligan. SW allows 8 tokens turn 1, but would you keep the SW hand? There were 11 cards you would like to see (4 Land Grants, 3 Petals or 4 Moxes)


Hand 13
Bwish
Twall
Cantor/SW --> Twall
Cantor/SW --> SSG
Belcher
Petal
SSong

Cantor gets a likely mulligan. I'm not sure what I would do with this SW hand.


Hand 14
Taiga
ESG
SSG
Cantor/SW --> DespRit
Petal
DespRit
SSong

No wincons means Cantor or SW build would get a mulligan.


Conclusion:
Based on this very small sample size, I can see a possible trend that SW is viable for a non-Dark Ritual build of Belcher. Out of 14 hands, 4 were improved by the SW cycle while 2 were worsened. 8 hands were unaffected.

What did I not take into account? Do you see any mistakes? What can this brief study tell us? What is your opinion of keeping Cantor and replaced Dark Ritual with SW?

[Kilz88]

Alright, now I tried being subtle about it before by saying "why don't you guys try this" but now I think I need to explain myself. I have been testing the deck quite a bit over the last couple nights and came to some final decisions and stand points on this deck. First off, black does not need to be in this deck seeing as "Burning Wish" IS better than "Infernal Tutor" because it is infinitly more versatile. Secondly, I don't quite understand what I am missing with the whole "Street Wraith" situation. What I mean is there is no disadvantage to this card as long as you put it in the correct slots. Insert "Street Wraith" rant here:

Now I had decided to simply observe this whole situation for the most part until now so I have read everyones opinion of the card in this deck. With that said I would like to start by saying: Drawing cards is never bad, Despite paying 2 life. Anusien had mentioned that as an issue in his recent "Unlocking Legacy" article and thought I would hit on it. But never the less, Drawing cards is never bad. In my build I took out a wild cantor, and the 3 dark rituals (cause I don't play black) for the wraith. Therefore all I replaced were mana cards. So, based on that all you have to do is pretend it is a mana card because if it was not in the deck it would be one. It is that simple. I dont understand the issue here. 2 hands:

1:
Street Wraith
Seething Song
Rite of Flame
Elvish Spirit Guide
Land Grant
Lotus Petal
Burning Wish

2:
Street Wraith
Tinder Wall
Lion's Eye Diamond
Simian Spirit Guide
Simian Spirit Guide
Chrome Mox
Land Grant

The decisions are obvious: Keep hand number 1 and mulligan hand number 2. Keep hands with a win condition and mulligan ones that don't whether street wraith exists or not. The only time this card is bad is if someone either played "Stabilizer" on turn one with ancient tomb or if someone stifles the cycle in which they have made a mistake not saving it for your win conditions. There are no cards better than the ones already in the deck so it is not like something better could be in its spot. If I could run 12 "Street Wraith" I would taking out the worst cards in the deck and moving upward. This deck is about consistancy and "Street is possibly one of the best consistancy cards ever printed. Finally, this card does nothing to the mulligan decision making process in "CRET Belcher".

Btw, I like to call it "SMACKS"...as in the red and green boxed cereal.

To end, I present...My list:

"SMACKS"

Mana

4 Desperate Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Seething Song
4 Tinder Wall
4 Lotus Petal
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Land Grant
4 Chrome Mox
3 Wild Cantor

Consistency

4 Street Wraith

Win

4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Burning Wish
3 Empty the Warrens

Land

2 Taiga

Sideboard

4 Xantid Swarm
2 Cave-In
2 Shattering Spree
2 Elephant Grass
1 Armageddon
1 Simplify
1 Echoing Ruin
1 Trash for Treasure
1 Empty the Warrens


Your welcome. Flame on!

EDIT: I always choose to draw. I think everyone else does too but I thought I would add that.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Anusien had mentioned that as an issue in his recent "Unlocking Legacy" article and thought I would hit on it. But never the less, Drawing cards is never bad.

Well, if Anusien said it...

Seriously, here's the thing: Drawing cards might never be bad, but having the cards you actually need in your hand is pretty much always better. With 11 kills and 49 mana, you can look at your hand and know if you have it or not. With Street Wraith, you can't. There's no earthly reason to run the card in this deck, as it eliminates one of the greatest strengths it has.

Cutting black has some merits, but I'd honestly rather run Helm of Awakening and Channel the Suns if I wanted more mana than unreliable card drawing.

[Kilz88]

Well, if Anusien said it...

With 11 kills and 49 mana, you can look at your hand and know if you have it or not.

With 11 kills, 45 mana, and 4 wraiths it doesnt change. I mean, I cant think of a hand where I wouldnt know whether or not to mulligan.

[Illissius]

Much as it pains me, I think BreathWeapon might have a point with the Serum Powders. The argument is well past the "but Powder itself makes the hand worse!" and "Powder is only good if there's a single specific card you need" point.

Serum Powder is a cantrip. You draw a hand of seven cards with Powder in it; if it sucks, and with Powder in it, it very well may, you draw a new hand of seven cards. This is where you would've been at without Powders, so having to pitch the previous hand doesn't cost you anything. You go from Powder plus six random cards to seven random cards, so it effectively cantrips. As a bonus, if you actually like the Powder hand, you can keep that, too.

Where this logic breaks down for most decks is that you are liable to draw Powder after your opening hand, when you can no longer throw it away. This is less of an issue for Belcher than pretty much any deck in the format, hence the appeal. That said, it is an issue, especially with (ironically enough) Street Wraith. Other complications include drawing too many win conditions or all of your Land Grant targets together with Powder, making it inadvisable to pitch, and forcing you to take a hard mulligan instead.

Now, all of this isn't saying that Serum Powder is the card to run. Whether the correct choice is an effective cantrip with complications or splashing black for Rituals is debatable (and is happening quite fervently), and the best answer is most likely to test it. But some people were looking at it from the wrong angle, so I thought I'd clear that up.

[Peter_Rotten]

I mean, I cant think of a hand where I wouldnt know whether or not to mulligan.

Well, what about this that I posted above?

Mox
SWraith
SWraith
ESG
ESG
BWish
LGrant

..all you have to do is pretend it (SW) is a mana card

But sometimes it is not. Sometimes it is a 2nd land or another win condition. Of course it has a greater chance to be a mana source, but it won't always be one.

[Ewokslayer]

EDIT: I always choose to draw. I think everyone else does too but I thought I would add that.

Why? Keeping a hand because the 8th card will be amazing isn't adviseable.
Letting you opponent get to 2-3 mana against Goblin tokens seems poor as well. Nor is giving them Daze mana.
I don't think it really matters much either way but it seems like choosing to draw isn't always the best choice.

[Peter_Rotten]

EDIT: I always choose to draw. I think everyone else does too but I thought I would add that.

Really? I find that interesting since I HATE letting my opponent draw against this deck. I especially hate it if they play a blue land since then I have to worry about Daze AND Stifle AND Blasts. Oh, and also Needle. Or if they are playing Swamps, maybe Ritual into EPlague of flipping Null Rod.

Hell, I just convinced myself that I want to play first.

[MattH]

Well, what about this that I posted above?

Mox
SWraith
SWraith
ESG
ESG
BWish
LGrant

There is some percentage of the time where SW will become a nonmana card, AND that matters (a hand of 4 red rituals, grant, ETW, and a Wraith is still a good hand no matter what Wraith cycles into), AND you wanted it to be Dark Ritual (the contender for the slots it is replacing).

But I think that is a smaller percentage than the times where you wish you didn't have black in the deck: either you draw a Dark Ritual and can't cast it, or you Belch into a non-lethal Bayou, or you draw Bayou, ETW, and five red rituals, etc.

None of these individually is of great likelihood but together I have found that if you sum over all contingencies, SW's unpredictability fucks me over less often than "having black in the deck."

[hi-val]

I find myself agreeing with Matt. When I first picked up the deck, I was struck with how awkward Dark Ritual is. One must contort the manabase to fit it in, and often, I had it stranded in my hand when I went off. SW becomes a multistage question, then.

Is Dark Ritual good in the deck, or is it a card there because there's simply nothing else in R and G for the deck? To me, it's there because there are no other accelerants on-color. Black has the minor role of bringing in Duresses and the like postboard.

If Dark Ritual is a good card, then we leave it in place. If it is a "placeholder" card, used because there's nothing else good in the colors, then we should replace it.

The deck has enough kill cards, so we are left with draw or mana cards. R and G are terrible for this, and there's nothing good around. Consequently, it looks like SW is the card to put there. I'm happy to admit though that this is truly because it is a placeholder and not to improve consistency, etc. If there were another red or green ritual or accelerant useful on the first turn, then by all means, that's the card to play instead. As it is, I think we have to deal with having fifty six good cards for the deck, but the restriction of having to put four more in.

SW requires a different line of thinking. I'm in the process of testing it out; when I see opening hands, I ask myself if it would be better as Dark Ritual or Wraith. Often, it seems that Wraith is a better card, as it usually turns into mana and also doesn't trick me into contorting my gameplay to use it like Drit sometimes does.