[Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)

[Holo_rip]

personally, i haven't got problem playing 1 drop or two drop white spell with 4 scrubland, 1 godless shrine and 2 plains(and fletchland that can provide plain : 2). Maybe am i lucky, but i've never tell myself "damn, i need one more white mana, should have play mox diamon".
And about the argument that you do your 3 cost spell before your 2 cost spell, i think it's just better. Cause if you do your 3 cost spell in the begining of the game, then you have ton of mana to disrupt your enemy.
Finally, i've never feel to need a mox diamon in my opening hand, contrary to dark ritual.

Holo.

[eternaldarkness]

Agreed. Dark Ritual is tons better in deadguy. Plus the option of turn one Hippie and turn one E-plague shouldn't be ignored.

Serrra Avenger is actually a good choice in this deck, IMO. Your going to be casting disruption anyway during the first three turns so why not use Avenger for the fourth turn? You should have the second white source at this point plus its a powerful offensive beater that plays defense against other aggro based decks.

[Hummingbird TG]

Avenger is a bad idea without Mox Diamond or basic Plains. one white source should be easy enough, but aggressively getting Scrublands is begging for a Gobbos player to Waste your land.

And with that many BB casting costs in this deck whhich are crucial to it, basic plains is a bad idea. So I do doubt if you'd ever get to cast that Serra Avenger...

[Holo_rip]

Avenger is a bad idea without Mox Diamond or basic Plains. one white source should be easy enough, but aggressively getting Scrublands is begging for a Gobbos player to Waste your land.

And with that many BB casting costs in this deck whhich are crucial to it, basic plains is a bad idea. So I do doubt if you'd ever get to cast that Serra Avenger...

At the moment, i've never find hard to cast it.
It is true that white tend to share more and more card, and that it isn't anymore a black deck with white splash, but black AND deck.
Nevertheless, i think that to go with more white card just fit well the goal of the deck.
And Avenger is really a total MVP, every fish player now that.

Holo.

[Hummingbird TG]

Avenger is good, but what does Avenger do that Shade doesn't? It is Vigilant and Evasive, thus goes well with Jitte. But it is nowhere as fast as Shade; no reason to do cute Jitte tricks when you could be finishing your opponent, no?

[Holo_rip]

avenger help a lot in defferent matchup like gobelin and threshold.
it also can attack AND defend, making her a house with jitte.
i know that shade is really a monster too, but i see shade more as an offensive creature, and avenger as a offensive and defensive creature, and this is it what we need in my opinion : attack and defend in the same time.
Moreover, i nearly never equip a jitte on shade, cause shade is already pumpable (even if it eat lot of mana though).

Holo.

[Hummingbird TG]

Um...I can't find slots for Jitte, thus I don't run Avenger. Any ideas what i can cut for it?

Furthermore, Gobbos, with Pyrokinesis, Incinerator and Fanatic and Ringleaders for draw power, can easily draw into enough removal to get rid of your creature, regardless of what it is...

Although I wouldn't mind more threats in either of those matchups, I find most of my other tools invaluable, so much so that its hard to find slots for Avenger and/or jitte. I'll post my list in a minute.

My List:

//Mana 26

4 Scrubland
4 Dark Ritual
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
7 Swamp

//Creatures 12

4 Dark Confidant
3 Hypnotic Specter
3 Nantuko Shade
2 Jotun Grunt

//Other 22

4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Gerrard's Verdict
4 Sinkhole
4 Vindicate
2 Cursed Scroll
2 Engineered Plague

[Holo_rip]

I am currently running this build :

Lands (21)
4 Wasteland
2 Bloodstain Mire
2 Windstep Foothill
4 Scrubland
1 Godless Shrine
6 Swamp
2 Plains

Creatures (17)
4 Dark Confidant
3 Nantuko Shade
3 Hypnotic Specter
2 Jotun Grunt
3 Mother Of Rune
2 Serra Avenger

Spells (22)
4 Dark Ritual
4 Sinkhole
4 Duress
4 Hymn To Tourach
4 Vindicate
2 Umezawa Jitte

Sideboard (15)
4 Ghostly Prison / Engineered Plague
3 serenity
3 Pithing Needle
4 Extirpate
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Jotun grunt

I've cut two cursed (even if i like it very much) cause i already run shade. With shade AND cursed, it his hard to find enough mana, so i'll left only shade to eat the mana that i have. Moreover, you must have 1 card in hand in order to make scroll very effective. You can also cut gerrard in order to go more aggroish.

Still, i'm happy with this build, but i don't know if a split of plague/prison will be better then a 4 of one, and this is THIS point that i want to argues with you guys.

Holo.

[Hummingbird TG]

@Holo: Your lists' numbers seem abit off.

First, you run 21 lands, as you pointed out.

But, you run 17 creatures, not 15.

And 22 Others, not 25.

But they total up to 60, so no matter.

Anyway, on Cursed Scroll and Shade: Shade often doesn't get to stick on the board. Cursed Scroll does. As a creature, Shade(especially with its 1 toughness), is easily killed. Cursed Scroll stays to clock your opponent, doing two every turn. it's also the reason why I dislike Jitte - with so few creatures, it is easy for your opponent to cut you off your creature flow, and strand your Jittes.

About the Gerrard's Verdicts on my list, they're new and not yet tested. i'm about to test them after regionals(Im helping a friend with his regionals deck). I'm keen to see how they do against CRET Belcher and TES, which i do predict a rise of...

Also, no Dystopia in the board? That this is a frickin house against Thresh, Fish and Meathooks(Sliver). It also helps us with any form of Green Aggro(Tarmogoyf is very, very dangerous).

On the subject of EPlague and Prison, I find 4 Eplague at least to be good. Firstly, with prison they can still force through a few attackers, or sit back and let a Siege Gang Commander do all the work from longrange. EPlague ensures no lackey/commander/Incinerator/Fanatic shenanigans, or other tricks in general. 2 Eplagues also give you enough time to beat FTW with a Shade.

[Holo_rip]

@Holo: Your lists' numbers seem abit off.

First, you run 21 lands, as you pointed out.

But, you run 17 creatures, not 15.

And 22 Others, not 25.

But they total up to 60, so no matter.

Fixed.

Anyway, on Cursed Scroll and Shade: Shade often doesn't get to stick on the board. Cursed Scroll does. As a creature, Shade(especially with its 1 toughness), is easily killed. Cursed Scroll stays to clock your opponent, doing two every turn. it's also the reason why I dislike Jitte - with so few creatures, it is easy for your opponent to cut you off your creature flow, and strand your Jittes.

In fact, i'm running more creature than a traditional BW Confident build (just like anti~american build though) and it is not that hard to get a jitte on a creature. For instance, i found more difficult to get a jitte than a jitte on a creature...

About the Gerrard's Verdicts on my list, they're new and not yet tested. i'm about to test them after regionals(Im helping a friend with his regionals deck). I'm keen to see how they do against CRET Belcher and TES, which i do predict a rise of...

That's true that Gerrard's Verdicts are great in a combo metagame. If you run them, run only two, cause it cost 2 mana, and it is black and white. It is more a metagame call than anything else i think (here in Paris, there is more aggro and aggro-control than combo).

Also, no Dystopia in the board? That this is a frickin house against Thresh, Fish and Meathooks(Sliver). It also helps us with any form of Green Aggro(Tarmogoyf is very, very dangerous).

I run too much white permanent to play dystopia, that's why i run perish instead. I've been testing againt UGr Threshold, and that's true that it is difficult to handle a tarmagoyf.

On the subject of EPlague and Prison, I find 4 Eplague at least to be good. Firstly, with prison they can still force through a few attackers, or sit back and let a Siege Gang Commander do all the work from longrange. EPlague ensures no lackey/commander/Incinerator/Fanatic shenanigans, or other tricks in general. 2 Eplagues also give you enough time to beat FTW with a Shade.

At the moment i'm testing Prison cause it goes well with the LD strategie, so wait and see for more testing, i'll post later my comment on prison.

Another thing i'm considering to do is include another jitte or a SOFI, but well, what should we cut so ? maybe a duress or a dark ritual (think that dark ritual would be cut, cause it is more a dead card in late game).

Holo.

[Hummingbird TG]

[Brainstorming]

Solutions to fast combo? Our disruption which can hit play turn 1 are:

-Duress
-Chalice of the Void(for 0)
-Rit -> Hymn/Chalice for 1/Plague

Certainly, that is too few? Although more options open themselves to us on turn 2, it may be too late for they could have easily gone off by then, especially for Belcher.

Should we run Null Rod? Cabal Therapy? Sphere of Resistance? How should we side?

Any opinions on this?

[Zilla]

Any opinions on this?

Unmask + Duress + Therapy if you're really concerned with ultra-fast combo. A turn one Swamp, Unmask, Therapy is utterly devastating for most turn 1-3 combo decks. Followed up with Hymn and/or a strong beater like Negator or Shade and it's a very tough game for them to win. If you're talking about the sideboard, you'd run Therapy and Unmask in the board, and side out your slower creature removal (Cursed Scroll), your Plagues (if they're not running EtW), your Sinkholes, and your Vindicates in that order.

[Holo_rip]

against combo, i'd prefer to add extirpate. Why ? Cause if you can extirpate one of their win condition, or one of their mana card, you can wrench them. Moreover, with 8 discard spell, 4 extirpate will be enought to stop combo in my opinion.

Holo.

[Ohpus]

Avenger is good, but what does Avenger do that Shade doesn't? It is Vigilant and Evasive, thus goes well with Jitte. But it is nowhere as fast as Shade; no reason to do cute Jitte tricks when you could be finishing your opponent, no?

Agreed here. Avenger is better in WW and WU fish decks in Legacy and Extended where you can use cards like Aether Vial to sneak it into play a turn earlier.

Bitter Ordeal looks good, but only if you are playing a sweeper like Damnation.

[Hummingbird TG]

Damnation kills all our creatures, and is worse than EPlague against Gobbos. No reason to play it. Bitter Ordeal is just worse than Extirpate or Cranial Extraction.

[Holo_rip]

Serra Avenger is here to be another good threat with shade. i haven't found at the moment another better creature with a low mana cost (white speaking). If you got any idea for another threat, just say !

Holo.

[Hummingbird TG]

I often find Shade and Grunt to be more than satisfactory, and 3 Shade and 2Grunt to be enough. Shade can be blown up to rediculous proportions to smash the opponent, after all...

[rsaunder]

Shade is amazing, but moreso with Mommy to back him up. I don't know for sure if avenger makes the cut, but mommy's just the tits.

Also, I don't think mox diamond is right. I might be going back to an older build with a heavier white manabase to support Mom.

[Hummingbird TG]

That probably begs the question, basic Plains or no? After all, turn 1 Fetch-> Scrubland seems a bad idea with Goblins back around. And then, would white Fetches be run?

[f|i[p]]

The deck is starting to have similarities with bunnies...replacing creature kill with discard and Land D. Having almost similar creatures...except the count..

Bunnies did very well against aggro and aggro control..which is the problem for pikula it seems...just mix and match both.. we might get into somewhere..

Perhaps you should take a peek at the bunnies mana base..
http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showt...hlight=bunnies

it runs chrome mox instead of mox D. or dark ritual...

just some reference... If you are planning to go with a similar mana base or something like it.. I would still suggest serra avenger..vigilance on a 3/3 body is tight, specialy with jitte... If we are adding basic plains to the mix, you can lower the shade count to 3 instead of 4...

Just a thought...