@Anti~American4621 You've not quite convinced me.
TES is a "win-fast" deck right? You wanna combo off ASAP. Confidant only seems better if it sticks to the board 3 turns (of yours) after being played.(+3cards). Aren't you dead by then anyways? It seems like something faster would be better.
Who has tested Dark Confidant?
Does anyone have a situtation where they boarded them in and found them useful?
Originally Posted by Bovinious
umm.... no. Have you read this article yet. Have you seen all the Pitch Long's SB (Xantid Swarm is slow as balls, that good enough?)? What does that tell you? What it is trying to do is slowly the pace of the deck down, so it can find ways to win. Not relentlessly try and break the game through a ton of disruption being sided in against them. Combo decks try and win small, or bait bombs until it can resolve a bomb. One bomb is all it takes. Guess what, it applies to this deck to. Slowing your game down can make your game against Control much easier on your part.
This deck wont relentlessly go all-in unless the TES player knows he'll get away with it. Besides, it doesnt take that long. Another thing Confidant does is sit back and blocks Mages. There's no way an opponent would crash his Mages into Confidant, because if he does, he'll lose. That is how strong the deck is. With so much disruption and must counters, he'll probably be exhausted by then. He he even dares for threats with his Serum Visions over Counters, he'll lose.
Wastedlife has stories to tell about Confidant. He'll tell you about all the games he's won against Fish because of them.Who has tested Dark Confidant?
Does anyone have a situtation where they boarded them in and found them useful?
ICBE - We're totally the coolest Anti-Thesis ever.
"The Citrus-God just had a Citrus-Supernova... in your mouth."
Breathweapon your deck is not TES, I'd recommend finding a new thread for it.
Now that that's out of the way, I'd like to state that my SB is foreverever changing. There's days I like cards and days I don't right now theres 7 interchangeable slots. Theres alot of possibilities and some that aren't that great, I was recently testing vs. BHWC Landstill and was getting my ass handed to me whenever I opened an ETW. I'm considering going back to 2-2 on win conditions because not having double Tendrils was horrible. Which means that Cabal Therapy will more than likely find it's way out of the SB with only 2 ETW.
On Dark Confidant, this guy is always in and out of my SB. He's alright, nothing amazing; Confidant can be good against fish, but so can discard/REB. I didn't play him in Columbus and didn't miss him at all, so it's your choice. I'm just having a hard time finding what I like in the SB.
I agree, but the two deck's are so analogous that it's difficult to separate them from each other with out referencing one another. Regardless, there's compatible tech, because replacing two of the storm cards with two Diminishing Returns is still a consideration for TES, and Infernal Contract seems to be almost a mandatory set up card for Burning Wish it has been so good to me.
I'm also starting to think that Mystical Tutor for Infernal Contract is fundamentally stronger than Plunge into Darkness, or perhaps replacing Plunge into Darkness with Infernal Contract and using Cabal Rituals again is just better than putting so much emphasis on finding and using LED. Diminishing Returns and Infernal Contract/Cruel Bargain are about as close as T1.5 can get to T1's philosophy of just casting bomb after bomb and grinding the opponent out of the game as opposed to TES's philosophy of casting a tutor and LED and going all in. Sure, TES can still use 3 MD ETW to compliment that plan or Burning Wish for bombs, but it's threat density is piqued if either plan actually fails.
The Hull Breach and the Earthquake slots can be truncated into just Crime/Punishment. Crime/Punishment can remove multiple Chalice of the Void, multiple Pyrostatic Pillars and multiple Meddling Mages while inflicting collateral damage against the opponent's board. Despite being mana intensive, the versatility of the card and the SB space can be worth it. Void is a similar consideration, but it's so expensive and the discard could be win more.
Persecute is another set up card for Burning Wish I'm considering, because Duress pass, Burning Wish pass and then Persecute is just disgusting against Landstill, Threshold or High Tide.
Edit: Goblin War Strike looks awesome in the SB, especially if you are using 3 MD ETW. It's like it turns Burning Wish into an unrestricted Time Walk after you resolve ETW, and that's probably better than Cabal Therapy.
TES is what it is, but I'm not certain that Swarm/Plunge and the emphasis on LED/Infernal is the way to go any more. So often, you're just giving their Swords to Plowshares targets, reducing their clock and turning their counters into Mind Twists. I'm not saying TES is a bad deck, far from it, but I think there are other options that need to be reconsidered. What do you honestly consider to be the defining characteristics of TES?
Last edited by BreathWeapon; 06-03-2007 at 11:16 PM.
I know I said I would never post on this thread again but seriously I could not stop laughing when I read this.
Edit: BTW is the deck INFINITELY more inconsistent with the inclusion of 1 Orim's Chant, or 2 if your looking at wastedlife list? Just curious how that played out.
This is spam and a borderline flame. There was no need to make this post.
-PR
Last edited by nightshade81; 06-10-2007 at 07:29 PM.
Yeah, I think you were a little ahead of your time back then, and I'd like to apologize for being a dick, but Street Wraith, Orim's Chant and Infernal Contract also played a part in my decision to reconsider Mystical Tutor.
While Orim's Chant is a strong disruption card, it's also a slow disruption card. I don't think that Orim's Chant should be used as the main disruption card in the deck, because it can't be cast in advance of the combo (unless you're using it as a card disadvantage Peek or for baiting a Force of Will while Time Walking yourself into a Meddling Mage or Null Rod) and it requires W mana when being cast on the combo turn, which is really difficult to support with the UU mana for hard casting Diminishing Returns, the B mana for casting Dark Ritual and in other people's cases the R mana for casting Right of Flame. The reason I use Duress and Simian Spirit Guide is because neither of those cards conflict with hard casting Diminishing Returns on turn 2, while Orim's Chant needs the mana base to set up to do it, or a Force of Will is in the discard pile and you want to find Orim's Chant to go off with Infernal/LED into IGG/Tendril or Wish/LED into D7.
Multiple Orim's Chant work when you're relying on Tutor/LED, but I really dislike building my deck around Tutor/LED, which is why I always emphasized Burning Wish for Diminishing Returns and 3 MD Empty the Warrens.
Edit: I'm going to start my own thread in developmental soon if anybody is interested in following the deck there.
You are cutting cabal rituals to add in chant. Cabal ritual really is quite weak so the deck doesn't really lose consistancy. You can also always find a way to use chant which never really makes it a dead card. The only problem I have had with chant is that it will slow me down at times because i can't drop it turn one and go off turn 2 as i can with xantid, due to the white mana requirement. Against control though waiting a few turns to get chant protection is usually worth it.
I have another hand to analyze: 1 City of brass, 2 LED, 1 Burning wish, 1 Brainstorm, 1 Tendrils of agony, 1 Rite of flame.
You are on the play against goblins, game 3. I had this situation on a tournament and went for turn 1 Diminishing returns, and won on turn 3. Maybe I should have went for Empty the warrens but i was afraid 10 tokens wouldn't be enough, especially having seen 3 pyrokenesis in his SB(I also saw Chalice game 2). The brainstorm plan I found too risky because of Wasteland.
I went 5-1 playing 2 pox, 1 wild zombies, 1 Monoblack aggro, 1 hannifish and in top 8 goblins. Then the top 4 split and I won a Sea. I lost from Pox round 2 and if the to 4 didn't split i would have had to play Flash and the other 2 decks in top 4 were Meathooks and Thresh. There were I believe 38 people.
Edit: I also have a question: against what decks are Confidants actually good, ecxept that they pitch for B?
The way I see it is that most of the time it won't come through because your opponents play creatures and creature removal and it won't give you less damage because when it blocks or keeps creatures at bay it damages you alswell, so I don't see why it's better than Night's whisper. On average it probably stays in play for 2 turns and deals you asmuch damage as you would have had anyway. I play Duress in it's place and it works well. I see wastedlife is already using it maindeck but i believe it doesn't fit maindeck. I tested it and when you don't have The Nuts with Dark rirual or LED you need Cabal ritual to make enough mana to win or make tokens. And about Chant I am not sure yet. I don't have spare coloured mana when i go off many times, but I will try them.( I might be bias because I would have to buy Chants :P)
Last edited by matelml; 06-10-2007 at 11:40 AM.
I have another hand to analyze: 1 City of brass, 2 LED, 1 Burning wish, 1 Brainstorm, 1 Tendrils of agony, 1 Rite of flame.
Turn 1: land brainstorm.
Turn 2: Win
The problem with that is you know your opponent plays 4 wasteland so if there is no mana source within the next few cards and your opponent opens with waste, chalice, go or juste waste, go, you are in trouble.
In my head there is 3 right plays.
First is do the bstorm into the win. But there is a lot of issues with this. Chalice, Pillar, and other random forms of hate are a huge factor. Also I can not go for the IGG finish with this hand because of burning wish.
Second is say "fuck Brainstorm" and try and go off like this:
City -> rite -> LED -> LED -> Wish -> Crack for UUUBBB -> Returns.
After that I will have UB still in the pool to play with for my seven cards.
Third is to play the 2 LED and say Pass to see if i get something better with my draw.
All three look right. But depending on is combo package I will most likely go with option 2 then 1 then 3.
The 4rd option is to make 10 tokens with Wish-> Empty the warrens.
I think that is not a strong option against goblins. I this is one of two matchups that I hate making tokens with. If you if they get a sharp shooter they win. If they get a lackey or something eles then you are attacking with 9, Then they make there 2. Then you are on the ropes.
You win via tokens against gobs if you can get 14 tokens. Maybe 12. Since you can only make 10, I rather take option 2.
If you're on the play, there's almost nothing they can do against that play. The only thing I can see is first turn Skirk Prospector, Second Turn sac for Warchief (blocking one gob on the second attack), Third Turn Sharpshooter. It involves having 2 one-ofs (which might even not be played), a warchief in hand and playing no fetch.
I think we can agree the risk is almost non-existent
If they started, I might consider this option too. If we are post side and they didn't play Chalice, odds are they have a pillar or heavy mana disruption in hand. In order too win against 10 gobs, they'll usually have to play Warchief on turn 3, get 4 lands on turn 4 then matron for Sharp (or Sharp in hand). The odds for having such a hand are not that great, because they're focusing their starting hand on their anti-combo stuff. You should consider if they've mulliganed and what their turn1 was, too.
I started, he didn't mulligan and what he could do against that play was use a pyrokenesis and then make some blockers.
I've recently started playing TES and I'm sold on its power and flexibility. My only problem is a bunch of people at our local tourneys playing UGr-Thresh maindecking Stifle and Counterbalance/Top Engine.
I can't see a way to win through a Counterbalance (or CotV) on 2 unless I topdeck or already have EtW. What do you do against it (except scoop)?
I board in duress (and more EtW) and try to go off before they have Top+Counterbalance. If they manage to get that or Chalice at 2 down you usually lose, but it's not that hard to go off before they have one on those 2, most of the time they come down around turn 4. If you resovle a Xantid you should have enough time to go off.
I personally would go for the Returns plan since I'm a huge fan of it, however, I've already changed my list drastically since the one I post. (Sorry, I make alot of changes/cuts when I test.) I'm currently down to 9 land because I'm playing 4 SSG, I cut a Chrome Mox (Due to SSG being basically the same thing) and I'm playing 2 Tendrils, 3 ETW. I also cut Duress. Eh. Might as well post it before I confuse anyone else.
// Lands
4 [AN] City of Brass
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine
1 [VI] Undiscovered Paradise
// Creatures
4 [SC] Xantid Swarm
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
// Spells
1 [AL] Diminishing Returns
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
2 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [R] Dark Ritual
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
3 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
2 [PS] Orim's Chant
3 [FD] Plunge into Darkness
4 [IA] Brainstorm
3 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [AL] Diminishing Returns
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 2 [JU] Cabal Therapy
SB: 4 [A] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [7E] Duress
SB: 1 [A] Earthquake
SB: 1 [PS] Hull Breach
SB: 1 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [OD] Careful Study (This has also been Goblin War Strike I've just been testing random SB cards.)
The list, the last one was way too controlling. It drifted off from the gameplan for a better control matchup which it shouldn't of done. I noticed it in later testing. I was missing the second Tendrils of Agony, I can't stress it enough about how you want two in the maindeck. With all the cards this deck removes you really want two. Maybe it's my playstyle but I've been using Diminishing Returns more and more. A second Tendrils also helped against gro in testing, double Tendrils on turn two for the win? Aside from that it's just good to have. Not relying on Burning Wish to find your Tendrils of Agony after its removed is huge. Rely on a Burning Wish makes the deck much weaker to counterspells and other such hate.
Simian Spirit Guide I was testing as a 3 of over Duress and the card makes Empty the Warrens and Diminishing Returns much better than they already are. One of the reasons for it's inclusion was it makes casting Returns without LED alot easier with 2 lands. It's also great after a returns for a Rite of Flame. I know, I know "Isn't that hypocritical?" No, I was argueing it over Rite of Flame not along with it. I started testing it when I was rereading the thread and saw that Brian D.(Ewokslayer) mentioned it over Cabal Ritual. Which is what the Duress slots were; so it all worked out. Simian Spirit Guide also makes alot more broken turn ones with Empty The Warrens(Example: Land-> Brainstorm, [Remove: Simian Spirit Guide] Rite of Flame, Rite of Flame, LED, Empty the Warrens.) Theres also tons of other examples.
"Why only three Chrome Mox?" Simian Spirit Guide #4 turned out to be alot stronger and less of a dead draw than the 4th Chrome Mox. While the 4th Chrome Mox adds storm SSG not needing to remove a card was better.
"RED ELEMENTAL BLAST?!" With SSG in the deck this card becomes alot better, it can be cast out of nowhere due to SSG and hit a Force of Will or an opposing Diminishing Returns (I did it, was awesome). It also kills Meddling Mage, not that it should matter but in the likelyhood it does its dead.
Careful Study is something I've been randomly testing as a 1x of to ditch cards in your hand so you can become "Hellbent". I don't know if I like it or that it will be staying, I've also been testing Goblin War Strike which hasn't been that impressive but I'm still testing it.
I'm a big fan of using SSG and Right of Flame together, I picked up on it after using Desire in Extended and in Classical, but I never thought about cutting the Cabal Rituals for it.
Red Elemental Blast is a fascinating idea, I love how after Right of Flame, Right of Flame and the opponent reacts with Force of Will you can react with Red Elemental Blast off of the R left floating in the pool and protect the second Right of Flame. It seems like a powerful means of protecting the Burning Wish for Diminishing Returns plan from counters, the Empty the Warrens plan from Stifles and removing Meddling Mages. As an aside tho', Red Elemental Blast should be Pyroblast, just so you can cast it to increase the storm count if you need to.
I don't see the point of using Careful Study over Ideas Unbound, at least with Ideas Unbound you get to draw one card deeper, have the option of playing all of your cards in your hand, and then discard three cards for Threshold. That aside, I think Careful Study and Ideas Unbound are both awful, because Infernal Contract is a must counter threat, and drawing 4 cards will build Threshold regardless. Infernal Contract is literally the best card in my SB right now, it feels like I'm playing Demonic Tutor for Ancestral Recall in Vintage it's so horribly busted.
so what goes out for the blasts ?
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