Skirge is garbage unless you maindeck Therapy.
Originally Posted by majikal
Agreed. It is very good with Therapy, though.
She said, "You're broken."
"So is your face." replied the Tarmogoyf.
I Havent been on in a while because I have finals this week but i wanted to say a few things.
Kaeverks spite: This card is definately a win more card, and this deck does not need that. Whenever you havethe opportunity to play this card, you probably should have won already and the card slot would be better as a disruption slot.@C.P: I'm fooling around with some of the cards you mentioned. Kaervek's Spite is iffy since it was mostly used in the old days to get around CIPT: Black (not a common occurrence nowadays) and on the back of demonic consultation (banned). You don't draw it often enough to make a difference and even if you draw it, it is usually a win more card.
The most promising card you mentioned is Skittering Skirge. Like I said before, I'm currently trying out different creatures to replace the last 4 remaining pump knights in the main. I tried out 3 Rotting Giant+1 Wretched Anurid but right now I'm thinking of replacing 1 Rotting Giant and 1 Wretched Anurid for 2 Skittering Skirges. Thoughts?
Your creature base: Umm do you run dark confidant, if not then you probably should, its great tempo which is what this deck is about. If you do, then why the sudden glorification of skittering skirge. The only time its good is late game and even then if your running confidant this will probably be a drawback. Rotting giants are good but they interfeer with ghastly demise if you run them and wretched anruid... I dont think 1 life per creature justifies only a 1/1 increase in power. if your looking for creatures to fill the gap, carnophage/ sarcomancy are great tempo or you could even run withered wretch if it suits your meta (probably not the optimal choice... im just throwing a few ideas around).
Call me Ishmael
I have serious doubts about whether Dark Confidant generates anything remotely close to tempo. How can you say Dark Confidant generates tempo?
Ok we all know that tempo is the amount and value of turn based resources. One of these resources obviuosly is drawing a card. Now draw 2 cards instead of 1... You are attaining more resources, creatures, disruption per turn then without it so i believe that it does in fact generate tempo.
Call me Ishmael
I think defining tempo can often be difficult, but I don't think drawing cards is the same as generating tempo. That would mean every card advantage spell would generate tempo and I don't think that's the case at all. Tempo and Card Advantage are two different things and they shouldn't be thrown together.
I found "Systemic Thought" by Zvi Mowshowitz really helpful. It talks about games that are determined by tempo and the games determined by card advantage. These games look very different.
Dark Confidant generates card advantage, not tempo. The cards you draw off of it can generate tempo, depending on what cards you draw. But Confidant in itself does not generate tempo.
I was looking at the first pages of this thread and saw a card i think has potential in Sui black: Snuff Out. This card obviously has bad dissynergy with confidant, but if you dont run Bob then this card is probably one of the best pieces of reach black has to offer. Because its free, you can cast a beater, or disruption (a second creature destruction spell could be devastating...) and cast this card. Snuff out would give the deck even more speed which would be extremly beneficial.
Call me Ishmael
Ooo. Taco likey free spells.
Seriously, though. My teammate ran these for a good while. Forgot all about them until you mentioned them. I hated playing against them. They create such a ridiculous tempo swing.
I think they're definitely worth testing. I just don't know what slot they'd occupy.
For me they took the place of 3 ghastly demises... i havent got that much testing in for them but for the little that i got it has shown some promise.
Also what are everyones opinions on chrome mox... Im thinking about running them if i switch back to ghastly demises.
Call me Ishmael
I've been tinkering with a sui/aggro black build for quite sometime now. It was originally inspired by a pox variant I saw that could transition via sideboard into sui-black. Mono-black can do this because no matter the build it retains a base of cards which are uniformly too good not to run (read: duress, hymn to tourach, dark ritual, sinkhole, etc.)
Black also has possibly the best selection of hate cards this format offers. Leyline of the Void, Engineered Plague... sometimes black is splashed just for these kind of options.
The idea was to create a transitional deck based from a 45 card skeleton leaving 30 cards of sideboard hate - some generic, some specific.
In my testing this has been phenomenal, which is part of the reason I'm posting it. Quite literally it is my best deck (I don't play Tier 1). Alright, enough of me blabbing... to the deck, then discussion.
45 Card Skeleton:
Lands (18)
18x Swamp
4x Wasteland
Utility (12)
4x Dark Ritual
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Sinkhole
Creatures (8)
4x Hypnotic Specter
4x Nantuko Shade
Other (3)
3x Unearth
30 Card Sideboard:
Combo/Control
4x Duress
4x Phyrexian Negator
Aggro/Weenie/Fish
4x Engineered Plague
4x Plague Spitter
Threshold/Madness/Graveyard
4x Leyline of the Void
4x Dystopia
Generic
3x Small Pox
3x Serum Powder
Because of the structure of the deck, the cards have poorer synergy than normal. The tradeoff to this poor synergy is the ability to deck twice as much hate as is typical. Again, in my testing this tradeoff is fully worth it. An extreme example: say your playing against Goblins and you have both a Plague Spitter and Negator in hand. You're never going to drop your Negator because of his poor interaction with Plague Spitter. But having the Plague Spitter out against Goblins is completely worth the wasted card in hand. When/if Plague Spitter dies, then you can drop Negator... that type of thing.
First question: why the Unearths? Well, you're running alot of disruption and hate and not alot of creatures. Your creature base will be more typical of Deadguy than more creature intensive builds. Additionally, your creatures can absolutely wreck face in certain matchups. The countered first turn Hypnotic or Negator back on the second turn is a play that wins games. Unearth can target everyone of your creatures, is never truly dead because it can be cycled, brings back cards that the opponent hates dealing with, and virtually ups your creature count. That's why - it works.
Alright, so the initial build would include the aforementioned skeleton and:
4x Duress
4x Negator
4x Plague Spitter
3x Small Pox
I know, I know, Negator and Spitter have really poor synergy. I'm open for recommendations if there are any. This gives you the highest creature count you can get and you don't have to play the two in conjunction. I rarely do. Drop a Spitter, clear the board, then drop dual Negators or what not. The deck in its initial form plays like suicide black. Not perfectly tuned and a little more controlling than usual, but basically suicide black. This initial build has positive matchs-ups against control, most combo, and many aggro-control variants outside of Threshold. It goes near even with most Tier 2, and is good enough to beat most Rogue decks. Against Goblins and Threshold... expect game 1 to be 30%-40% in your favor. Goblins is the worse of the two.
Boarding Plan (this if the fun part!)
Goblins:
4x Engineered Plague
4x Plague Spitter
3x Serum Powder
4x (whatever the hell you want)
If you can't win with the set up God hates you. The matchup swings to roughly 70%-75% in your favor games 2 and 3.
Fish / Other Weenie:
The same boarding plan used for Goblins can be used for Fish and other aggro weenie. When facing Angel Stompy which is also one of your worst initial matchups, I bring in 4x Dystopia. Fish is an easy win, even game 1. Zoo variants are typically a bit harder. Burn has always been of the worst matchups of Sui-black, it remains true. White weenie / Angel Stompy slides slightly to your favor with about a 60% percentage game 2 and 3.
Solidarity:
The initial build has a positive matchup of roughly 60%-70%. If you really don't like the interaction between Plague Spitter and Negator then you can side in Serum Powder I suppose.
Empty the Warrens Combo:
You guessed it... same boarding plan as Gobbos. If this is there only kill conodition then they deserve to die. I'd probably make sure to keep Duress in as well.
Graveyard Combo:
4x Leyline of the Void
3x Serum Powder
4x Negator
4x Duress
Mulligan for that Leyline. It's not that hard to find. Duress to stall (obvious inclusion) and Negator for a clock. Combo and control fear sui black, rightly so. Not many decks pack the disruption and clock sui-back can.
Percentages for both EtW combo and Graveyard Combo really depend on the deck using it. All have been positive. The most problematic in my experience has been Belcher. In the few games I've played I'm still pulling roughly a 60% win percentage against it.
Solitaire:
My testing has been very little against Solitaire. I haven't lost a game, but admittedly I only played 3 games over this time. Bring in Dystopia, Duress, Plague Spitter is good against Argothian... Small Pox for extra disruption is fun.
Threshold:
Boarding against Threshold has been a real diffculty. I've got so many tools and which ones do I want to use. Leyline + Serum Powder is hot. On the other hand, the land destrcution of SmallPox + Sinkhole + Wasteland is awesome also. Dystopia is too good not to run. Duress is also good. I'm of the opinion I'll want atleast 12 creatures, 8 isn't enough when StP removes then from the game and Unearth can't bring them back. I want Negator in. How do I get the space for all of that? Well... I'm 4 slots short. Honestly (I know I'm gonna get lambasted for this) I cut Dark Ritual for those slots. The tempo swing created by Dark Ritual is most likely going to be mitigated by either free counters or a cantrip into swords to plowshares. I believe the right approach is to not play the beat down 'til you've established control. It should be possible with the amount of hate I bring in. Still Threshold is such a resilient deck. Don't expect to go much better than 60%-65% post board.
Affinity:
Heh... this is probably the worst matchup. I don't have hate boarded for Affinity and they have a tempo I just can't match. Luckily it seems as if Affinity is basically dead. If it ever sees a reviva the board can be modified appropriately. I mention it because this and Burn are the only two decks I don't have a board plan for that ends up with a positive win percentage.
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Anyways. Toss me your thoughts, play with it. Recommend better boarding options, etc. The next major tourney I go to I hope to be packing this. It will be interesting to see how it does.
Umm you do realize that the minimum amount for a deck is 60 cards and the only amount of cards a sideboard can have is 15, no more... no less.
And why unearth?
Call me Ishmael
1) 1 too many land, you don't need 22x lands in a deck that tops at 3.
2) Unearth is so damn conditional that its not worth it. Sometimes, they are dead and useless, and other times a unearthed hyppy or gator won't be able to block well anyways. Removal over unearth, preferably edict or vendetta or demise (awsome with fetch lands).
3) plaguespitter sucks, gator and shade both suffer, and it isn't "that" good against goblins, and definately not good against threshold. Play rotting giant if you play 7-8 fetches, anurid if you like 3/3s for 2, or dark confidant for gas.
4) Smallpox: sucks, tested it.
... Well that was a comment I wasn't expecting. 75 cards total... when constructing the idea, TREATING these 75 as 45 of a skeleton and 30 of a sideboard... included was an 'initial build' list (i.e. for game 1) I'll let you deduce the remainder and figure out why this works...Umm you do realize that the minimum amount for a deck is 60 cards and the only amount of cards a sideboard can have is 15, no more... no less.
Dinner time - I'll edit soon.
EDIT:
I know the standard for double black on turn two is 17 black sources rather than 18. Quite honestly I'm not comfortable with that. Take a look a Pikula's list for the GP. 23 lands. Admittedly he is running dual colors and fetchlands. But he also has Confidants to draw into more land which don't cost 1B. My curve does top at 3, but it's really heavy on the top and I need a third land drop by my third turn near always. You could be right in that I could cut a swamp. I'll consider it.1) 1 too many land, you don't need 22x lands in a deck that tops at 3.
Unearth as a few people have pointed out to my is never truly dead due to cycling. But that certainly doesn't mean Unearth merits a spot. I've considered Dark Confidant in place of Unearth. Unearth wasn't included so I could get an extra block in. Unearth was put in to keep in play the problem creature they hate seeing. Against combo that's usually Hyppie; against control, Negator; against aggro, Spitter; etc. Dark Confidant might serve near the same purpose by drawing into more hate rather than recurring it. Confidant was the 1 card I was a little unhappy I wasn't able to fit in the sideboard as he's great against both combo and control also. I even considered replacing Negator with Confidant. Both would be best for many matchups. Replaycing Unearth with Confidant and probably dropping 1 land to up Confidant to a count of 4 is what I'll be testing next. With Confidant I can probably afford the land drop as mentioned earlier, and this does up my creature count which I'm pleased with. The real problem with Unearth was that StP was a little to common to make it really good.2) Unearth is so damn conditional that its not worth it. Sometimes, they are dead and useless, and other times a unearthed hyppy or gator won't be able to block well anyways. Removal over unearth, preferably edict or vendetta or demise (awsome with fetch lands).
I'm not sure removal in place of Unearth would be the right way to go. Most of the time this deck just doesn't need the removal. Spot removal is virtually worthless against Combo so I wouldn't want to include it in the 'skeleton'. Against Control, the removal is probably not needed. Against Aggro, I'd rather have a sweeper or gas than spot removal.
Spitter is awesome. But he's conditional. Gator and shade do both suffer. But only in the initial build did I include Gator and Spitter together. I'm open to suggestions so that I never see the two paired. Shade... well either he's out early game and he's enough so that you don't bring spitter out, or don't bring him out early game and Shade can come out late game when his poor synergy with Spitter doesn't matter because he'll be a 5/4 or greater every turn.3) plaguespitter sucks, gator and shade both suffer, and it isn't "that" good against goblins, and definately not good against threshold. Play rotting giant if you play 7-8 fetches, anurid if you like 3/3s for 2, or dark confidant for gas.
You're right that Spitter is not good against Threshold. Maybe I didn't make it clear, but he's one of the cards that isn't 'in' against Threshold. And against Goblins, Fish, and most other Weenie, Spitter IS 'that' good; especially when paired with Engineered Plague and Unearth to recur him. I could write a couple of paragraphs writing about what Spitter can do in a format where 2/3rds of the the creatures are 2/2 or less. But it would probably be pointless as I'm sure you can think of where Spitter is good without my belittling your intelligence by spelling out all those situations.
Again, the idea was to have a deck that could transition into a deck which would hate on whatever MU you face, while attempting to maintain a decent first game. Spitter is some of the best (and underused) hate out there against Aggro which is sui-blacks worst MU. In contrast Giants provide no hate of any sort and while good for their cost are really mediocre. Even for more traditional sui-black they're one of the most debateable slots.
Small pox is so flexible I can't see how you think it sucks. Yeah, there are times when you don't want to see Smallpox. There are also times you don't want to see Negator, yet Negator is awesome. In my experience the few times this occurs aren't worth cutting it. I bring Small pox in against most control and combo MU's. Small pox is great against fragile mana bases offering me 11 land destruction effects; almost as many as Deadguy. It takes down their large beater if yours just can't deal with it (pretty rare case, but it occurs). And it provides an extra discard effect. The majority of the time this isn't a hindrance to you because alot of the cards are conditional and possibly aren't needed at the moment (you can always Unearth the Negator after you've taken control of the board and need a clock).4) Smallpox: sucks, tested it.
I have no doubt that you tested it, but this deck plays a bit differently than most sui-black. It is great against almost everything except aggro.
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Lastly, I realied I didn't offer the Red Death or Deadguy MU.
It's roughly 45%/55% their favor. I don't have much hate which effects them and their deck is a little more streamlined. Honestly, most of the time it's a coin-flip. Who has Dark Ritual hyppie, or ritual Negator. Who is on the play and sinkholes the other first, that type of thing. But when it's a close to even game, Red Death especially can pull ahead. The higher threat density tends to make the difference. I suspect that including Dark Confidant would help these MU's slightly.
So, what do you think of replacing Unearth with Confidant. I'd prefer a full set of Confidants if this is the case. Should I cut a swamp, or possibly a Shade considering my two drop is typically disruption and Shade tends not to matter 'til turn 4-5+
Last edited by Galroth; 06-15-2007 at 04:48 PM.
I cut shades a while back and it has proven entirely beneficial. A majority of the time it would be sub optimal compared to confidant, zombies, or hippie because i could cast those and play disruption. The times where shade was good it would not have been any better then a negator (which is whati replaced them for) because negator smashes face and doesnt eat my mana so i can attack and play more creatures/ disruption.
Also, after testing snuff out some more i have concluded that it is not any better then ghastly demise...
Ghastly demise pros:
- kills smaller creatures more effectively
- doesnt suck to topdeck it to confidant
Ghastly demise cons:
- occasionally dead due to laack of abilty to put things in the yard
Snuff out pros:
- allows for tempo boost
Snuff out cons:
- bad at killing smaller creatures
- topdecking this to confidant is a bitch
Call me Ishmael
Fixed.
info.ninja
Ghastly Demise doesn't kill black creatures either.
Snuff Out is better than Ghastly Demise. I don't buy the argument that Ghastly Demise is better against small creatures for one second. I completely disagree with it. In Suicide Black, I want all my mana available for making my opponent discard cards, dropping threats, or pumping my threats up, as fast as humanly possible.
I would rather pay 4 life thanto pick off a Goblin Lackey. This will allow you to be dropping Carnophage or Sarcomancy (Or anything in your deck if you went first) rather than basically passing your entire turn just to take the Lackey down.
Wow i just saw a pretty interesting card suggested by someone on the wizards board: Perish
Perish 2B
sorcery
Destroy all green creatures
This card owns the fuck out of threshold. The only miniature problem i see with this is that to maximize it you might have to wait until opponent plays a good amount of creatures. This coupled with discard to clear their hand of counters would make threshold alot easier to win.
Call me Ishmael
Perish won't be that rediculous. normally Thresh can pull out a win with just 1 Tarmogoyf or mongoose, making Perish a 1 for 1 trade.
Just play dystopia. That card IS rediculous against thresh and not narrow at all.
they haunt minds...
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