Breakthrough is in my list over Tolarian Winds now. Its a solid turn one play - a One With Nothing plus four cards from the top of your library. It gets even nuttier when LED is involved, because you get to dredge a LOT on your first turn. If you can get LED + Breakthrough and any dredger on turn 1, you're looking at a turn 2-3 win.
My list now:
Manas:
4 Underground Sea
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Polluted Delta
Men:
4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
Dredgers:
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
2 Golgari Thug
Draw that never actually draws:
4 Street Wraith
4 Deep Analysis
4 Breakthrough
Holy fuck why did they print these :
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
3 Dread Return
Sideboard/Anti Graveyard Hate:
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Reverent Silence
3 Emerald Charm
2 Tropical Island
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Wooded Foothills
I've gotten rid of Dryad Arbors maindeck. They kinda suck, actually. They're good in Vintage because you literally NEVER pay mana for a spell. This deck needs a good turn 1 play that involves blue or black mana, and Dryad Arbor was never able to provide it. I was always unhappy whenever I had a great hand... but only Arbor as a mana source. So, the manabase has been adjusted accordingly to maximize the availability of blue and black mana on turn 1.
I run 10 Dredgers (6-5-4, obv) and I feel a lot more comfortable. I very rarely whiff when I go to dredge. When I was running 8, I'd sometimes go in on a Deep Anal with only one dredge guy in the yard, and end up having to draw a card with Deep Analysis (which, undoubtedly, was always Golgari Grave-Troll). Now my hands start with at least one Dredger and I can feel reasonable certain that another one will be in the next few cards.
Thats about it. It would be nice to fit in another FKZ, but it's not a high priority. I've sometimes had to dig really deep to get him into the yard. It's sometimes a pain in the ass, but I'm just bitching. It's not a huge issue.
I already talked about Breakthrough. It dodges Daze and stupid stuff like that. Its effect isn't optimal obviously, but I see no better option for a 1cc slot. Careful Study is a shitty version of this card. If Careful Study discarded then drew, it would most likely be in over this.
Serum Powder, in my opinion, still sucks the big one. I really don't think it's the right direction to be going with this deck.
On another note, I was going through one of my boxes yesterday and I found a Golgari Thug and a Flame-Kin Zealot. That 2 less really narrow cards that I need for this deck. Sweet.
What are your sideboards ?
I would play something like this :
4*Leyline otV (because fanatic is a pain)
4*Chain of vapor (because Leyline is a pain)
4*Needle (because tormod is a pain)
3*island (because I don't play enough lands to play answers)
Ive been testing the two most important matchups (Thresh + Gobs) quite a bit. Heres my developed list..
4 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Dread Return
1 Flame Kin Zealot
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Deep Analysis
3 Breakthrough
3 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Narcomeaba
4 Street Wraith
4 LED
4 Underground Sea
1 Polluted Delta
1 Dakmor Salvage
4 Cephalid Coliseum
My list is extremely close to Jaynels right now. I have a different land, one more dredger, and I maindeck Leyline over Imps.
Leyline became key to matchups since it basically allows you to slow roll into an innevitable win. We were testing a version of Thresh that had Counterbalance to hit Therapy and Pyroclasm to deal with Zombies. They still stood no chance. I got turn 2 and 3 kills when LED resolved, turn 4-5 when it didnt. You can really slow down Mongoose with Leyline altho Tarmagoyf is still a threat. I can often throw Narcomeabas and Zombies in his way till I animate an army.
Goblins became far better since Bridge cant be removed however I have a lack of lackey answers since Im not running Putrid Imp. Honestly though I have no problem going to 8 cards and discarding to get the game in motion. The fact Bridge stays is so so key.
Here's my sb at the moment..
3 Pithing Needle
4 Chain of Vapor
1 Blazing Archon
1 Sundering Titan
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Unmask
Chalice and Unmask take care of combo while Chalice and Needle hit Crypt. Chain of Vapor is my only answer to Leyline but this deck is so broken Ill rightfully take the unfavorable Leyline when I see it.
Im beginning to have second thoughts about Serum Powder actually. Ive been playing with the card alot in belcher and its use is mirrored in this deck. Getting the LED hand will just win you the game usually.
Ive also contemplated a singleton One with Nothing just for laughs because its literally playable..
Now playing real formats.
I just won a tournament with the deck Sunday.
Round 1 Stax
This is a necroling we brought with us who I lent geddon stax. I went 2-0 against him in playtesting before we got paired for our game. He turns around and kicks my ass in the real tourny by dropping early Ghostly Prisons and killing me with Magus and Duskrider Peregrines.
Round 2 Boros
I can tell his deck sucks and only worry about getting Leyline going. I start with it both games and Ichorids and Zombies kill him easily. Game 2 I do it again with some help from Darkblast.
Round 3 Thresh
This is my gf Jessi playing playing a new version of thresh with counterbalance and the gofy. Shes prepared for Empty the Warrens and my zombies by making a small splash for Pyroclasm. I still take both games, but the second was close when I was at 8 about to die from 2 7/8 goyfs. Hes so big against us..
Round 4 Stax
Its the same kid. This time I womp him easy game one. Game two he dropps a Ghostly Prison. I combo into Dread Return to get a 9/9 troll. I sadly start to you my draw phase the way its intended to get some mana. I dredge back a Dakmor Salvage and draw into an underground a couple turns later. Then he drops a Tabernacle at Pendrel Vale. I sadly keep drawing cards. 2 more and I see another land. 5-6 attack phases and chump blocks later the troll does the job.
I split for 1st/2nd with my teammate playing Death and Taxes.
Now playing real formats.
I have been getting better results with Ashen Ghouls and Nether Shadows over Narcomoeba and Golgari Thug.
I also found a full complement of Breakthrough and Careful study more relevant than a way to keep going once you get going (Deep Analysis is quite mana-hungry as well).
Am I overlooking something and playing the deck wrong?
Which of you was playing Bound in Silence?Originally Posted by Bane of the Living
SummenSaugen: well, I use Chaos Orb, Animate Artifact, and Dance of Many to make the table we're playing on my chaos orb token
SummenSaugen: then I flip it over and crush my opponent
What about running "The Tabernacle at the Pendrell Vale"?
Killing your own Tokens is not the way to go.
Also it doesn't make mana, so it has no synergy at all.
Team aYb
Selling my Japanese Legacy Collection. PM me what you need ;)
My mcm-account. Selling overseas
Lol.
I'm sure now that leyline MD is the way to go. It will probably slow your opponent more than you and it prevents you from losing on a fanatic.
Ok they were 6/7's they did see all the 'classic' card types.
MD Leyline is so huge its basically all you need against aggro decks. Its also a nice foil to Iggy, Loam, and Reanimator.
Tabernacle sucks since it kills your zombies. If you want a gimicky land add Dryad Arbor or Mishras Factory. Both can flashback Dread Return and Therapy. Arbor is obviously the way to go if your playing green enchantment hate.
@Iranon
Its very possible your miss playing or keeping mediocre cards. I did this for a while actually. It can be easy to misplay.
First pick up either my, Jaynel, or Awesomator's build. All are solid, I think the differences are mostly preference. Try to find yourself hands that look like..
1 LED
1 Deep Analysis
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Golgari Thug
3 ?
Hands like this are elementary. Drop your land and LED; sac for 3 blue discarding your hand, flashback the DA to start dredging.
1 Underground Sea
1 Breakthrough/Street Wraith
1 Golgari Grave Troll
4 ?
When this is all there is to start with Ill often draw my card and go to my discard phase. Get the fatty in the tank then start with a dredge next upkeep or start a dredge up immediately with a Street Wraith.
2 LED
1 Breakthrough
1 Coliseum
1 Golgari Grave Troll
2 ?
These are the super broken hands you always want. Whether or not LED gets FoW'ed you have another one. If Chalice for zero is out you still have Breakthrough to start you off. In this particular example you can start with your land and LEDs, put Breakthrough on the stack and sac an LED so you start your Breakthrough draws with a dredge.
2 Street Wraith
1 Golgari Grave Troll
1 Deep Analysis
1 Dakmor Salvage
1 Underground Sea
1 ?
These are nice hands as long as you know what your doing. Rather than mindlessly cycle into nothing sit on 8 cards and discard the troll on discard phase. Altho you'll feel like a fool sitting doing nothing for 1-2 turns your street wraiths will accelerate the lost dredging quite easily.
1 LED
1 Street Wraith
1 Leyline
1 Gravetroll
3 ?
Ill usually keep a hand like this too. You get your leyline opener and you have an outlet for your whole hand. Start by playing LED then crack it with your SW cycle on the start to get the troll dredged.
The more games you play the more comfortable you'll start to feel with hands and realize your plays easier.
Ashen Ghouls just wont do anymore. Your aiming for manaless so you cant depend on having black mana for him to recur. Its also a problem getting him stacked under other creatures, likewise for Nether Shadow. You dont get to choose what you dredge your already gambling, having to rely on the order of your dredging is even worse.
Also Ichorid is a total backup plan now. Bridge is the real contender.
Hope that helps a little.
Now playing real formats.
For your consideration, here is a list that took first place at a large German tourney:
Main Deck
4 Breakthrough
1 Cephalid Sage
4 Deep Analysis
4 Narcomoeba
1 Wonder
4 Bridge from Below
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Dread Return
2 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Dakmor Salvage
4 Underground Sea
4 Watery Grave
Sideboard
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Pithing Needle
That single Wonder could be really techy.
Wow, almost my exact list. I was using fetches over Grave, but still.
I think the sideboard absolutely needs some way to deal with enchantments other than bounce. I can think of 4 enchantments off the top of my head that totally hose this deck (in 3 different colors too).
Cabal therapy should be a four of.
Why is this still in N/D?
Because IBA didnt post it. Maybe PR will move it for us? I just took another tournament with the deck this weekend. Maybe that will help.
Round 1
R/g Goblins
Game 1 I get Leyline and win easily on turn 3.
Game 2 I suspect Crypt and bring in 3 Needle 4 Chalice.
Gobs opens with Crypt, Chalice@0, Lackey. I lose after a short struggle.
Game 3 I win turn 1.
Round 2
Death and Taxes
Pete wins every tournament he brings this deck to but Ive got a good game against it. I see nothing both games, he has super necro tech which hoses my strategy.
One of these games I mull to 4 or so. Lame.
I just need to win the rest.. This is the first non Belcher/TES deck thats beaten me with this deck. Fuckin D&T.
Round 3
Brain fart.. I forget but I trounced it, Ill get back to you.
Top 4
Im very happy I avoided the 2 stax decks since Ghostly Prison = scoop.
Round 4
Fuckin Brian playing U/G Madness
Both games were easy. Zombies beat the shit out of everything. Game one was elementary. I combo into a huge grave troll and like 4 zombies.
Game 2 He opens up with 2 Crypts (im on draw with Chalice in hand =( )
I apply a little pressure by going to 8 cards and tossing stinky in the bin. I dredge into a bridge and ichorid. I give slow beats till he crypts. I do it again and he crypts again. Then I dump the LED into play and unload my hand and win.
Ichorid is broken. Playing through 2 Tormod's Crypts? WTF!?!
Now playing real formats.
Yes, fellow team aYb member Florian "FlodO" Fischer just went undefeated (6-0-1 in the Swiss) in a 74 people tournament in Dülmen, Germany (http://www.trader-online.de/turniere...7-07-T15.html).
He didn't do much testing before the tournament, just some brainstorming with the lists that we discussed on the aYb forums. The deck is extremely strong.
Sometimes you have to read between the minds.
++ T8ing all over Europe since 2005 ++
++ Team aYb - all your base (are belong to us) ++
How are you actually playing tolarian winds turn 1? I don't see any mana accel for you to cast it turn 1.
He's saying, Breakthrough is a solid turn 1 play.
I don't know how to read apparently. I thought he was saying he had a breakthrough in his list and that breakthrough was tolarian winds. Lol...
What does your list look like?
Moved to open. Decklist is fairly optimized, and has shown good placings in large events as well as more localized events in Mass.
(In the future, rather than whining about a deck being in N&D, you could PM a mod or admin and ask for it to be moved.)
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