R/B/g Dark Zoo
Lands (19)
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Polluted Delta
3 Badlands
2 Taiga
2 Bayou
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Forest
Creatures (19)
4 Kird Ape
4 Carnophage
3 Rotting Giant
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
Spells (22)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
3 Seal of Fire
4 Magma Jet
4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
Sideboard (15)
1 Cabal Therapy
2 Unmask
4 Engineered Plague
3 Krosan Grip
3 Pithing Needle
2 Umezawa's Jitte
This is similar to the version of 3c Dark Zoo I've always played... except now that Tarmogoyf is around, it's changed a little. Tarmogoyf replaces Dryad, and Seal of Fire replaces Fireblast. This list goes in a bit of a different direction from yours Zulander, because I cut the 3cc spells of Negator and Call as well as the MD Jittes. The biggest concept of the deck for me was always speed... you want to drop cheap undercosted beaters, back them up with cheap burn, and race the opponent before they stabilize. If they manage to stabilize, you have a ton of additional burn to go to the dome. It's traditional G/R Beats philosophy. When you start running larger costed threats, the deck becomes much more midgame... and I don't really want to do that with this sort of deck.
More burn is much more important for winning the Goblins matchup than Jitte is, I think... if they can't committ anything to the board, they are going to have a hard time winning. More burn overall also improves your control matchups. I also really like Magma Jet in these kind of decks... aside from Confidant, you run absolutely no draw. Zoo decks tend to have problems when they run out of gas and go into topdeck mode. Magma Jet helps alot and, with Confidant, it gives you a solid "draw" engine. Not only that, it also increases your instant count for Tarmogoyf since the deck is heavy in sorceries and lacking in instants.
I'm by no means preaching this list, these sort of lists are obviously open to tons and tons of intrepretation, metagaming, difference in playstyle, etc. The whole fact that I don't run Negator makes it a completely different deck, for example, while Negator itself is still a really good card even without Dark Ritual. I just felt I'd voice my opinion on the R/B/g Zoo style deck and show the decklist I'd use.
As far as my SB goes, the extra Therapy and 2 Unmasks come in against combo and control. I really didn't want to run E Plague because the Goblins matchup is good already but I wanted an answer to EtW tokens and the other options just seemed to conflict with the deck (EE hurts me, Pyroclasm hurts me, etc). Krosan Grip answers randomness, Pithing Needle answers randomness, and the extra 2 Jittes can come in against larger midrange aggro (like Thresh, GRb SA, etc) and even Goblins if you want overkill.
I think that the original list I posted is torn between 2 decks. Red Death with goyf and Zoo. The main reason I wanted to play a list like this was to combine cheap amazing creatures ala gofy/negator along great undercosted hand/creature disruption. I think I'm just gonna play Red Death with goyf and work on this deck in my spare time. Some things that I did work into the deck was the 4th therapy/duress and taking out 2 thornweald archer. There aren't a lot of thresh decks around my meta anymore so he's not as useful as he would be.
I don't mean to derail the thread too much, but before you go ruining your Red Death deck's manabase by splashing green for Tarmogoyf, have you considered *not* splashing a colour and looking black or red for your undercosted fat-stick? Specifically Tombstalker, which may have to wait a turn or two more before coming down compared to Goyf, but has evasion to make up for it.
I just worry that everyone's looking at Tarmogoyf and saying "freak me sideways, that thing's awexome", then wrecking their perfectly good (or in some cases, already unstable) manabases to squeeze him in.
Originally Posted by pi4meterftw
Red Death with goyf is pretty good so far in testing, that's what testing is for. I haven't tested Tombstalker because I haven't thought about him, but now that you mention it I'll test him out too. Only thing is that tombstalker doesn't come down on turn 3 if you have a lackluster hand. And he's not so great when you draw him in your opening 7. Goyf will always cost 2 mana but has the drawback of adding in 2 more non-basics to the mana base. But that's what testing is for so we'll just wait and see.
OK so some notes from testing. The deck needs a better game vs combo so duress and cabal therapy are now 4 of's in the main. Chain lightning was tested and almost every time I had it I wanted seal of fire back. Sure seal of fire is 1 less damage, but once it's on the board it's instant speed use is just that much more important vs the decks you need burn against. Thornweald Archer has been cut and tin-streets look like they're about to go to the chopping block. THe manabase was also tuned a bit. So here's an updated list.
GAGOMY V 1.2
Mana : 21
4 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
2 Taiga
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
Disruption : 16
4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Seal of Fire
4 Lightning Bolt
Creatures : 16
4 Kird Ape
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Phyrexian Negator
Other : 2
2 Jitte
Sideboard : 15
4 Krosan Grip
4 Plague
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pithing Needle
Maindeck slots open : 5
Right now my thoughts are to go with 3 tin-street and 2 pyroclasm/EE in the main. The clasm wouldn't affect my guys as much (only DC and tin-street) but wipes goblins/ETW tokens, the only problem would be drawing them against the wrong deck and having them sitting in your hand being useless. I've also pondered about putting in maindeck pithing needles or other guys like nimble mongoose/wild mongrel (for more beats). I don't know if the deck needs more beats though either, so right now we're in the brainstorming phase.
If we aren't adding more creatures into the deck what are peoples thoughts of replacing cabal with hymn/stupor? I don't like stupor that much but hymn seems great. I think the -1 forest +1 badlands would help support the addition of a hymn due to the now 14 black sources in the deck (8 fetches, 5 nonbasic, 1 swamp). As you noticed I switched the basic forest in the deck for a badlands due to the removal of thornweald/call of the herd from the main, leaving only goyf as the only green card in the main and 4 grips in the side.
Another card I'm considering is maybe 2/3 nights whisper to combine with DC for card advantage.
Putrefy used to be in the main in the original phase of the deck but I took it out, what are peoples thoughts on it now?
So what are the thoughts on tin-street, hymn/therapy, nights whisper, pyroclasm, EE and putrefy. As well as any other potential cards I may have missed.
EDIT : I'd also like to get some feedback on mana accel i.e birds/elves/rituals.
OK so the changes I've made so far to the deck are this:
- 4 Cabal Therapy
- 2 Tin Street
- 1 Forest
+ 3 Hymn
+ 3 Call of the Herd
+ 1 Bayou
+ 1 Badlands
+ 2 Nights Whisper
So here's the list for GAGOMY 1.3
Mana : 22
4 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Badlands
3 Bayou
2 Taiga
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
Creatures : 16
4 Kird Ape
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Phyrexian Negator
Disruption : 15
4 L. Bolt
4 Seal of Fire
4 Duress
3 Hymn
Other : 7
3 Call of the Herd
2 Jitte
2 Nights Whisper
Sideboard : 15
4 E. Plague
4 T. Crypt
4 Krosan Grip
1 Hymn
2 Pithing Needle
The reasons for the changes were to add more card advantage to the deck. Hymn over therapy seems like a wierd choice due to the amount of creatures in the deck but I'll test it and see which one I should play next weekend. Nights Whisper seems solid late game to refill your hand and adding more black to the mana base seems logical since black is the most played color in the deck. And like I said, this build tries to use more card advantage as opposed to utility creatures (i.e tinstreet) to help the combo/control game more.
The 1 point of damage lost from the Spellbomb is recouped with the Tarmogoyf and compounded over the course of the game, Spellbomb also isn't sup-par in comparison to other options since it can cycle and circumvent Pro:Red.
I think you guys are missing out on Land Grant, you get to add density to your Instants thru' your land count and increase the size of your Tarmogoyf with out wasting the time to cast an Instant. You also get other options at your disposal, like skipping fetchlands altogether and using Root Maze.
and showing your hand to your opponent, which is pretty much always a terrible idea. Counterable land drops seem pretty terrible unless you have a really good reason, such as belcher.
It's not as if this deck has something up its sleeves, its as straight forward as it gets. Force of Willing or Dazing a Land Grant isn't that great of an idea in a deck that curves at 2, and the deck is running Duress and Cabal Therapy. You don't keep a Land Grant as the only land drop, just the same way you don't keep a 1 Land as the only land drop, so that's not much of an issue either.
Spoken like someone who really doesn't know that much about competitive magic I guess.
It's not just about having your land drops countered, its about betraying to your opponent all the information about your hand. It's about me seeing your hand and knowing if I can brainstorm to improve my hand, or whether I should save it to counter your discard spells. It's about knowing the threat composition of your hand, and whether or not I should answer the cheap threat, or let it through and save my answer for the bigger one in your hand.
Land Grant is just plain stupid in any deck that has anything in it other than creatures (green stompy) or a deck that is winning this turn or the next (belcher/whatever other combo might use land grant).
I am trying 2 elves of deep shadow right now. I have to say that I like the elves. They work with confidant well. Alowing me to cast the extra cards I pull off of him. They alow me to cast a turn 2 negator or call. Turn 1 elves, turn two cabal therapy, flash back therapy, cast Goyf is crazy. Birds can't hold jitte. I hate that. Didn't even consider ritual. Maybe if you get into hymn. It's also good for powering out jitte. not sure about that.
EDIT:
also I was digging call w/ negator, because you can soak up oposing burn. Pacaderms just scream, "Bolt Me!"
Last edited by TheCramp; 07-03-2007 at 02:01 PM. Reason: forgot something...
I'm sorry, I have absolutely no clue what this statement means lol. Are you saying you enjoy saccing cal of the herd tokens as sacrifice for negator?
Also, in case people need more reason to play Seal over chain.
1. Once it's on the board it's instant speed use is critical, especially against goblins.
2. It makes people think about playing the threat in their hand, goblins wont play that turn 1 lacky if they see a seal on the board.
3. Can be sacced to gator to save a goyf/jitte
4. If your opponent hits gator for 4, sac seal in response and hit gator for 2, sac gator and a land. I've had this kind of play come up before in critical points of the game to save my board. Especially if he's facing a huge creature, just stack damage then seal him.
On a side note, the reason for the re-inclusion of call of the herd. With the 5 spots open in the deck I knew I wanted a creature and I couldn't think of anything better to put in the spot. I thought about Burning-Tree Shaman and Rotting Giant, but BTS hurt you too much(8 fetches and 2 Jitte) and the Rotting Giant and goyf aren't very synergistic together. So what better than some card advantage ala creatures. If anyone else has a good beater that I'm overlooking and could replace call just lemme know.
EDIT: I also don't like land grant in this deck. Land grant has it's places in combo/stompy decks, not aggro control decks. Letting your opponent know what you have in your hand is always a bad idea, especially against any form of control.
Yes, tipping off your hand has a draw back, but it's not as significant as it is in aggro as it is in control, aggro-control or combo, where it's a race to a finish line and the Land Grant gets converted into damage over time. It's simple to disregard Land Grant based on revealing the hand, but it's not as simple to calculate Land Grant based on converting into damage on Tarmogoyf and enabling Root Maze etc.
The costs could out weigh the benefits, but there are benefits, so stating that it's "just plain stupid" is unwarranted.
While land grant + root maze is a good combo, it just doesn't fit into this deck.
There are 19 threats and 15 pieces of disruption that matter(4 Duress, 3 Hymn, 4 bolt 4 seal of fire). If this isn't an aggro-control deck then I don't know what is.
Zulander says it correctly, this is not an aggro deck, it's aggro-control, or aggro-disruption, or whatever. Aggro decks typically run balls to the wall, focusing more on beating face with a minimal amount of disruption, usually in the form of burn, that gives you reach and removal.
Aggro-control/disruption run fewer threats with greater longevity, and protect them either proactively with discard, or reactively with countermagic. They get a threat on the board and protect it/disrupt the opponent long enough for the threat(s) to go the distance.
This deck does alot more than simply race for the face, so land grant seems like a pretty terrible idea that doesn't even really merit testing.
-2 Night's Whispers
+2 Jitte
The card is simply too strong in this deck to not run 4 of.
you are wrong. You do not run a legendary artifact as a 4 of.
I personally don't like night's whisper, but its better than running 4x jitte.
You run 4 legendary artifacts if it's Umezawa's Jitte.
Stark's Suicide Black ran 4. Zilla's Stompy ran 4. The card just wins games. It's worth being stuck with an extra in your hand if you severely increase your odds of getting it every game. Often aggro matches can be decided by who gets their jitte active first--and if your opponent runs jittes then it turns excess jittes into jitte removal.
The card also has synergy with Dark Confidant. While Night's Whispers hurts your tempo and helps to melt your own face.
I personally love nights whisper in this deck. I think with the 2 whispers and 4 confidants the deck cycles through lands quite a bit, so maybe cut 1 land for the third jitte that way you're still running 21 lands(pretty solid) and the third jitte.
I ran the list I posted but since there weren't any real control decks at todays tournament I took 1 bayou out and put in the third jitte. I went 2-0-1 and we split top 4.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
