[Deck] Suicide Black

[Sigar]

Cabal Therapy over Duress, because no one here plays combo. In the last two tournaments I have seen 2 belcher and 1 reset high tide total.

Yes, Massacre is horrible, but it is not possible for me to get Dystopia for tomorrow. Any other suggestions for that spot?

[technogeek5000]

well how large is the field... also if your meta is full of control i would still run duress.

Umm i suggested perish a while back. Its a nice card and if you cant get a hold of dystopias (maybe the store has them ) then perish is probably your best alternative.

[Sigar]

I dont have Perish either. I think I'm gonna add 3/4 Dark Confidant to the SB.

[technogeek5000]

What wouldn't you side him in against besides goblins? Dark confidant is the nuts which is why I always advocate running a maindeck layset of him, I would find room for him in your maindeck.

[Tacosnape]

Cabal Therapy over Duress, because no one here plays combo. In the last two tournaments I have seen 2 belcher and 1 reset high tide total.

Yes, Massacre is horrible, but it is not possible for me to get Dystopia for tomorrow. Any other suggestions for that spot?

Out of curiosity, why in God's name are you running Suicide Black in a field of no combo?

[technogeek5000]

Out of curiosity, why in God's name are you running Suicide Black in a field of no combo?

Sui black is good against aggro and goblins as well as combo. The only time it would be unwise to play sui black is if your meta is full of control and prison decks.

[Galroth]

My experience has been different. Pure aggro has always been my hardest match-ups. Suicide black's disruption elements are more that sufficient to fight through the control mu's with sui's quick tempo.

[technogeek5000]

Sui runs lots of creature removal, jitte, and dark ritual to speed the deck. All of this contributes to a great aggro control game. I dont think anyone plays pure aggro anymore because it dies to combo and has a bad prison MU. Our control suite is mostly designed to deal with creature decks and that leaves alot of dead cards against control.

[Tacosnape]

Sui runs lots of creature removal

...Like what, exactly?

[Phantom]

...Like what, exactly?

I LOL'd.

I thought the whole point of running Jitte here (much like in U/G madness) was that black had such shitty removal. I mean, isn't that why Red Death splashes Red? For a better removal suite? And I'm failing to see how the Goblins matchup is anything but "shaky", especially for the Stark builds (which I actually kind of like) which run roughly four hundred thousand Fanatic targets.

/hyperbole.

[Tacosnape]

I thought the whole point of running Jitte here (much like in U/G madness) was that black had such shitty removal. I mean, isn't that why Red Death splashes Red? For a better removal suite? And I'm failing to see how the Goblins matchup is anything but "shaky", especially for the Stark builds (which I actually kind of like) which run roughly four hundred thousand Fanatic targets.

Well, the real whole point of Jitte is that Jitte is absolutely insanely nuts already and that half of your targets are pro-STP, capable of getting first strike, capable of getting flying, or cost 1. But yes, it's the best removal Suicide Black has. Additional removal spells are circumstantial, but versatile: These include Engineered Plague, Cursed Scroll, and Dystopia.

Goblins actually runs me pretty much about even. Granted, Mogg Fanatic's a complete crackwhore, and I'll lose the first game more often than not even with the Jittes main. However, postboard, Goblins gets to contend with the ridiculous combination of Jitte, Engineered Plague, and Cursed Scroll. Meaning as long as they aren't running Patron of the Asshat, I'm slightly favored in games 2 and 3. Against an excellent Goblins player, I'd estimate I get this match about 40-45% of the time. Against an average Goblins player, closer to 60%.

In any case, however, Suicide Black does not want to see Goblins all day.

[technogeek5000]

...Like what, exactly?

I talk from the classic sui perspective. Classic sui runs 4-8 creature removal and my deck has recnetly added jittes. Thats more removal then most aggro control decks run. I know stark builds rely on jitte as their removal but classic sui runs edict, snuff out, smother maybe (im still testing these) and sometimes jitte.

[Tacosnape]

Suicide Black can't afford to run 8-12 creature removal spells. If you do, you get into the zone of either A. not being able to run enough discard spells to be strong against combo, or B. not running enough threats to have a distant prayer against control.

[technogeek5000]

Sigh...

I never said sui black runs 8-12. My old list used 7 and i had good combo/control matchups with hymn, duress, sinkhole, and wasteland plus hate in the sideboard. Here is the list i run and it runs a total of 8 creature removal and has good combo and aggro mathcups and roughly 50/50 control.

Land:
17 swamp
3 wasteland

Control:
4 Hymn to tourach
3 duress
3 Diabolic edict
3 snuff out
3 Sinkhole
2 Jitte (bugdet constraints)

Creatures:
4 Carnophage
4 Confidant
4 Hippie
3 Negator
3 Sarcomancy

Accel:
4 dark ritual

Sideboard:
4 E plauge
4 Dystopia
3 Null rod
3 Planar void
1 duress

[Galroth]

If I may offer my opinion on your deck (though I'm unsure if you want it :)...

I'm not going into any of the really controversial topics such as: dark confidant, yes or no... 1cc 2/2s, really worth it? You're not going to make changes based off a couple of sentences of rhetoric over those kinda decisions.

First, up that Jitte count to 4 boy! Go sell your body on the street, whatever it takes. Your deck needs them. You'll probably be safe cutting the edicts afterwards.

Next, why just 3x Duress? It's good for your curve and is often better discard than hymn. Strongly recommend 4x. What made you cut 1? Just trying to fit other stuff in? Improves your combo and control matchups while hurting your aggro matchup a bit. The inclusion of 2x more Jitte would more than suffice to make up the drop in your aggro MU's.

Probably my most controversial suggestion: 3x wasteland and 3x sinkhole... if you're going to chase a land destruction strategy I don't think you can go half way. They're probably the weakest cards in the deck admittedly (depending on your meta), but I would either cut them altogether and replace them, or run a full set. A single ld effect is a blip in tempo. 2 or 3 will often win a game. More LD would improve your control mu, it probably wouldn't hurt alot of your aggro matchups either as you usually should have atleast 1 or 2 1cc 2/2 beaters up; that'll generally leave you playing the beatdown.

Finally... chrome fuckin' mox. Dark ritual is hot acceleration, a couple of moxes are more than worth it. Probably not a full set as multiples are worthless, and I wouldn't want my swamp count lower than 15x. My current build runs 3x and 15 swamp. My mana curve is higher than yours. The acceleration is too beautiful not to run. Test it out a bit. Almost always you'll have a card worth pitching. Know that ld isn't going to be effective this game... toss it to mox. Know that your negator is going to be a losing proposition... make him useful by throwing him to mox.

I think you'll find that this will help the control mu's overall with little to no expense against your aggro mu's. They're small tweaks, see what you like.

[technogeek5000]

If I may offer my opinion on your deck (though I'm unsure if you want it :)...

I'm not going into any of the really controversial topics such as: dark confidant, yes or no... 1cc 2/2s, really worth it? You're not going to make changes based off a couple of sentences of rhetoric over those kinda decisions.

First, up that Jitte count to 4 boy! Go sell your body on the street, whatever it takes. Your deck needs them. You'll probably be safe cutting the edicts afterwards.

Next, why just 3x Duress? It's good for your curve and is often better discard than hymn. Strongly recommend 4x. What made you cut 1? Just trying to fit other stuff in? Improves your combo and control matchups while hurting your aggro matchup a bit. The inclusion of 2x more Jitte would more than suffice to make up the drop in your aggro MU's.

Probably my most controversial suggestion: 3x wasteland and 3x sinkhole... if you're going to chase a land destruction strategy I don't think you can go half way. They're probably the weakest cards in the deck admittedly (depending on your meta), but I would either cut them altogether and replace them, or run a full set. A single ld effect is a blip in tempo. 2 or 3 will often win a game. More LD would improve your control mu, it probably wouldn't hurt alot of your aggro matchups either as you usually should have atleast 1 or 2 1cc 2/2 beaters up; that'll generally leave you playing the beatdown.

Finally... chrome fuckin' mox. Dark ritual is hot acceleration, a couple of moxes are more than worth it. Probably not a full set as multiples are worthless, and I wouldn't want my swamp count lower than 15x. My current build runs 3x and 15 swamp. My mana curve is higher than yours. The acceleration is too beautiful not to run. Test it out a bit. Almost always you'll have a card worth pitching. Know that ld isn't going to be effective this game... toss it to mox. Know that your negator is going to be a losing proposition... make him useful by throwing him to mox.

I think you'll find that this will help the control mu's overall with little to no expense against your aggro mu's. They're small tweaks, see what you like.

Im probably going to up my jitte count to 3... multiples are never sexy and im not sure if theres room for the fourth.

I guess i realy dont have a meta, because i live in the bottom part of CT (though im tryin to work with a local store owner to set up tournaments there). The tournaments that i usually do go to are ones in MA. The meta there is a majority of aggro control (lots o goblins, major reason why i dont play a full playset of duress) with a healthy amount of combo and control. I run the fourth duress in the sideboard and side it in when nessesary. I run enough disruption so that 3 duress is always enough game 1.

The mana denial is realy essential... I have considered adding extra but it important factors on deck constraints force me to run 3 a piece. First off is wasteland... the reason i dont run 4 of him is because of the land count. I have basically worked out for my list that 17 is the correct number of swamps because i do not run shade (my build focuses on the early and mid game and to many times this guy was a vanilla 2/1 for me). I have expiremented running 4x wasteland with the 17 swamps but that caused problems with mana flood so i decided to keep my land count at 20. Sinkhole is just plain room in my deck. I like to keep my removal count high so i decided not to take from there. Also sinkhole is often subpar to other pieces of control that this could replace. I never realy have problems with running only 6 and confidant helsp me draw into more.

Ah chrome mox. I have tested this card countless times and I believe I intend to do so more. Probably my biggest problem with these is the card disadvantage they create. Also a new factor is that they do not work well with snuff out. Now that said they make this deck incredibly fast which helps out alot of matchups. I do intend to test these out once more but again bugdet constraints (only 14 ) will probably make these a passing fancy.

Thank you for the suggestions for my list but I have realy gotten it to a point where I am comfortable with all the card choices and quantities. I will be playing the list the next chance i have (4x beserk maybe) and if I dont get mana flooded again (has nothing to do with my land count... a average of 9 lands a game is just unrealistic and probably the result of bad shuffling) I will share my results with the deck.

[Versus]

Admin: I got impatient! You can delete my "KSC" account. My Yahoo email was screwed up getting the activation link to me. I have nothing to do all day and wanted to post, so I just reregistered.

Hi guys.

Since deciding to make a comeback to MTG I've met with some pretty disastrous discoveries. Prosbloom is less than zero, Counterpost gets Wasted, and Squirrels just aren't going to cut it. Until Eldariel pointed me over here I was lacking any vision on where to start. All the combos of the past are gone and sifting through 7 years worth of cards (Invasion-Future Sight) was gonna be a big pain in the ass!

Then I saw this thread and maybe there is hope afterall

This is basically the deck that I slightly revised when Invasion was released and the Tempest block rotated out of Standard. I quit playing soon after. It's certainly nothing groundbreaking, but it's worked great for me.

---------------

4 Sarcomany
4 Carnopahge
4 Hippys
4 Dauthi Horror <--- I went with horrors over Slayers as Soltari Priest/Monk were HUGE back then.
3 Order of the Ebon Hand
4 Negators

4 Diabolic Edict
4 Hymms
4 Duress

3 Unholy Strength <----Something tells me that EVERY SINGLE PERSON here is going to sugest I change this to Jitte, am I right?? LOL

4 Dark Rituals
18 Swamp


SB:

2 Engineered Plague
2 Dystopia
3 Cursed Scroll
4 Wastelands
4 Sinkhole

---------------------------
I'll admit, the sideboard is pretty irresponsible as far as picking 15 cards aimed at specific threats. Basically I made it to change the deck dynamic around a bit. If my opp has MAJOR crad drawing advantage over me or creatures that block flyers (Longbow Archers were big then), or using lots of Ports, Academys, Reflecting Pools, ect, I'd take out the hippys and 4 others and bring in all 8 Land destruction cards. Keep in mind back then there was no meta (for me anyway) I didn't even have the internet. So I just built my decks, played them against whatever decks my friends used, and if they were soild I went to the tournament and just played.

I'm shocked that so many of you today are using basically the same build that was solid 7 years ago. Everything has changed, but not this. I looked at the CREATURE cards a lot of you are using that I'm not familiar with (ie cards released after Invasion) and I don't see much that slaps me in the face as being better than what was already out pre-2000. Nantuku Shade is good, but pump Knights are also good and I already own those. I don't see Confidant really helping the short game and that's really all we SHOULD need worry about to win, right?

Chrome Mox looks extremely solid, but I dunno. I don't have any budgetary contraints, but the only cards I would consider losing to include it would be the Ebon Hand.

I do like the Jitte as I said and WILL sub it in for the Unholy Strength
Also since today is the first I've heard of Leyline I will deffinatly consider it for my SB

One thing I do want to mention and was shocked no one else did is Auger of Skulls!!! Why has no one included this? Turn one Ritual him out,sack,regenerate,sack and you're opp just lost 4 cards! I'm probably missing something here.


Anyway just wanted to say whats up and I'm open to all suggestions except splashing another color! ;)

[Hummingbird TG]

Go up to 4 Engineered Plagues in the board; they can go in the Wasteland slots. If you play Wasteland, its generally always main as its never really a dead card(it also produces mana).

[Versus]

Go up to 4 Engineered Plagues in the board; they can go in the Wasteland slots. If you play Wasteland, its generally always main as its never really a dead card(it also produces mana).

Yeah, SB deffinately need reworking, Its a mess, really.

I think I have too many creatures up there too. It works for me, but I'm seeing MOST of you guys don't even run a full 20. I have 23...

I'm thinking about taking the Dauthi out for Rotting Giants (they work so well with the Negators) and bagging the OotEH altogether for an even 20. Then upping my Jitte to 4.

I'm torn, "shadow" are SO great in this deck especially with Jitte. I'll just have to wait and see I guess

[Hummingbird TG]

As for running Dark Confidant, maybe as a two-of to help late game.