It's usually the fact that when you play Enforcer, you've probably already won, or you just gave them a gap to lay their bombs down. I prefer to keep my lands open and prepare for the worst to come. [/quote]Actually, having Enforcer doesnt changfe the match up at all Post-Board!
I disagree. Even unthreshed, having an x/3 is awesome and when the ground is stalled, Enforcer offers a quick way (and sometimes only way) to wrap the game up. Basically, he's "Mr. Plan B."
@Enforcer: I won the last 2 out of 4 games against goblins with him. He broke the stall because he can't just be chumped by a 1/1 Goblin. That's so important imo.
Ok, that makes some sense. But if he runs Welder you are possibly in trouble (and lists which include it are raising as far as i can see). Xantid Swarm and Blasts are also usual SB stuff in Belcher to sneak through your FoW-Wall. I'm sure i keep/board them in. There's enough less usefull stuff like predict to side out.Originally Posted by Anti~American4621
I was never into him. As long as Ringleader or SGC dont resolve, I cant just break their board swing by swing with the other guys.
Usually they would run Welders maindecked, so I have an idea what to do from there. I remember the older lists with Trop for Brainstorm would run Swarms.Ok, that makes some sense. But if he runs Welder you are possibly in trouble (and lists which include it are raising as far as i can see). Xantid Swarm and Blasts are also usual SB stuff in Belcher to sneak through your FoW-Wall. I'm sure i keep/board them in. There's enough less usefull stuff like predict to side out.
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"The Citrus-God just had a Citrus-Supernova... in your mouth."
@ Anti-American I have recently been trying out your 2x Needle, Top, Balance build with the 10 cantrips. It has been working out pretty well. Have you come up with any additions to the sideboard for combo beyond what our normal plan is *beats and balance*.
Also how would you go about siding against Goblins? 2x balance out and a top or a daze for the H blasts?
Also threads of disloyalty in place of control magic has been working out great for me, the only time I had wished it was otherwise was against a mystic enforcer when my opponent had named swords with his mage after gaining board position.
What else couldn't it grab thats scary in an average meta?
Angel, FTK, Heirarch, Negator...etc.
That extra mana less is nice if you ask me :)
Tog Style Balance. You side out your 6 win conditions against Combo and try to assemble Counterbalance before they go off.
-2 CounterbalanceAlso how would you go about siding against Goblins? 2x balance out and a top or a daze for the H blasts?
-2 Sensei's Divining Top
-2 Mystic Enforcer
-1 Daze
+3 Hydroblast
+3 Stifle
+1 Pithing Needle
It's good that you like running Threads of Disloyalty. I run them because I just want to steal Enforcers and such.Also threads of disloyalty in place of control magic has been working out great for me, the only time I had wished it was otherwise was against a mystic enforcer when my opponent had named swords with his mage after gaining board position.
My reasoning for this is because the Threshold mirror is about board dominance. If they play Enforcer, you have increased outs for 3 Control Magic, 2 Enforcers, and 4 Swords. If they have a Mage on Control Magic, thats good for you, just Swords the Mage when your about to play Control Magic or they're about to play their 2nd (In thise case, it forces them to make more decisions which lead to mistakes).
Fledgling Dragon, Sea Drake, Serendib Efreet. If you dont expect the White Thresh mirror, it can be good. Of course, there's people running the Red version of my deck, but they play it badly, so it's easy to exploit their lack of knowledge with that deck.What else couldn't it grab thats scary in an average meta?
Angel, FTK, Heirarch, Negator...etc.
That extra mana less is nice if you ask me :)[/quote]
Thanks, but if you want to make things more interesting, you can side out the Basic Forest against deck that dont run Wasteland.
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"The Citrus-God just had a Citrus-Supernova... in your mouth."
I think you explained this earlier but couldn't find it when I looked through the history for your explanation.
Whats the reason for bringing in stifle against them...stop ringleader/lackey triggers? Stop wastes/fetches. Yeah its gaining you a tempo boost or possible card advantage, but it just seems like there would be a better option. Your sideboard is already as tightly packed as it is, but late game drawing those just don't seem that hot when you could be laying down a 6/6 flyer or digging top three for more threats.
I guess I should be more specific with my boarding.
You should be fetching out Basics early in the game. The exception to this rule is fetching out a Tundra or a Trop for an answer to Lackey. Thanks to Hydroblast, you can fetch out a Basic Island.Whats the reason for bringing in stifle against them...stop ringleader/lackey triggers? Stop wastes/fetches. Yeah its gaining you a tempo boost or possible card advantage, but it just seems like there would be a better option.
The point in fetching out Basics early is so that they cant disrupt your early game development. After Turn 2, start fetching out as many non-basics as you want, but you should still be playing around mana denial (Keeping a Dual in hand until needed, or sandbagging fetchlands in play).
When you play this deck, I want you to play it as if it were BBS, and the Predicts are FoFs. The point is, against them, you're establishing a fair ground between you and your opponent, and then you drop some Geese and Goyfs and it doesnt dont like it's quite fair anymore. Stifles and Hydroblasts are best in UGw Gro, because Crusade forces you to made mistakes by fetching out the 2nd Tundra. Running Stifles and Blasts allow you to play around Wasteland. tap out more often with only 1 mana untapped, and topdeck a plethora of counters just to keep them down.
I've lost with Mystic Enforcers tons of times. I would play Enforcer, they would just Crypt me, get a Ringleader to resolve and Gempalm it, or just go nuts and lay down a couple Piledrivers just to force me to block with Enforcer. I'd rather keep them from winning, since they're the better deck here...Your sideboard is already as tightly packed as it is, but late game drawing those just don't seem that hot when you could be laying down a 6/6 flyer or digging top three for more threats.
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"The Citrus-God just had a Citrus-Supernova... in your mouth."
I'm a little confused by your statement, I was wondering what you do with your current sideboard. You stated that you have to get the 2nd tundra for crusades...I'm assuming tividars crusade? If so where are these in your board. I like having stronger games against combo and thats why I liked your board, but with that plan do you just have to pray for the best against gobbos with your swords and blast plan?
Also you still didnt explain what the stifles are for :)
Last edited by BoardinCharlie; 08-10-2007 at 09:01 AM. Reason: Addition to post
I dont run them simply because of the mistakes you're forcing yourself into. When you really need a Trop to play around Ports and Wastelands, Crusades will screw you over. I would run them if the mana cost is 1W, so it would be better against EtW and Vial Goblins. Of course, it's rather narrow, but it is still strong for the metagame.
No, you just shouldnt let Vial resolve. The deck beats Goblins hands down, as long as Vial doesnt resolve. If it does, you have 3 Turns to cycle through cantrips to find Needle. Also, Hydroblast and Stifle are good at stopping Tinkerers and Hooligans so you can protect your Needles.I like having stronger games against combo and thats why I liked your board, but with that plan do you just have to pray for the best against gobbos with your swords and blast plan?
Against Goblins, you dont pray. I never see Blue Bull Shit pray in Vintage, it just counters for a few turns and wins with an FoF into broken shaz.
Course I did, it's nothing more but a simple counter, of course, it can hit Crypt and Gempalm activations as well.Also you still didnt explain what the stifles are for :)
ICBE - We're totally the coolest Anti-Thesis ever.
"The Citrus-God just had a Citrus-Supernova... in your mouth."
Has anyone found a way to beat Narcobridge (aka Almost Mana Less Ichorid) yet?
In our last local tournament I faced the deck and could no absolutely nothing except watch him goldfish me...
For refference, this is the list I played:
I sided in the 2 Engineered Explosives for 2 Predict and tried to race him but there was just nothing that I could do...Code:// Lands (16) 4 Flooded Strand 1 Polluted Delta 3 Windswept Heath 2 Island 1 Forest 1 Plains 2 Tropical Island 2 Tundra // Creatures (9) 1 Mystic Enforcer 4 Nimble Mongoose 4 Tarmogoyf // Spells (35) 4 Brainstorm 4 Portent 2 Serum Visions 3 Sensei's Divining Top 4 Predict 3 Counterbalance 4 Daze 4 Force of Will 4 Swords to Plowshares 3 Pithing Needle // Sideboard (15) 1 Armageddon 1 Ravages of War 4 Hydroblast 4 Chill 3 Krosan Grip 2 Engineered Explosives
Him being the only loss of my day (small meta overview and opponents I played in the top4 thread) and the deck being really good against almost anything in testing, I think that I might want to change some of my sideboard slots to fix the problem before playing in the German Legacy Nats on September 2nd.
Therefore I wanted to ask what the best anti-Ichorid tech for white ***** is and what to cut from my sideboard... I thought of cutting the 4 Chills for some tech, but which? Ghostly Prison? Tormod's Crypt?
Have you encountered the same problems as I have in the Matchup? Can it be fixed? What is the best hate?
Thanks for all of your answers in advance!
The only solutions I can think of that are worth considering are Tormod's Crypt (what everyone runs), Solitary Confinement (requires a better engine), Energy Field (can't play any non-permanents), and Island Sanctuary (Narcomoeba flies...). They're all susceptible to bounce, but each is fairly versatile, and can prove useful against a variety of other decks.
EDIT: Oh yeah, and Ghostly Prison and Propaganda. Those work too, I suppose. And yeah, I think the Chills will need to go for it/them.
This is not always true. A lot of folks are now running 3 or 4 Welders in the board to combat discard and counter-based strategies. It seems pretty effective, especially if you don't see it coming.
The main reason it was added to my side was for the mirror match. If it were only able to grab 2CC weenies, I don't even know that I'd bother boarding it in.
You run Threads of Disloyalty to steal Enforcers? I'm confused...
Solitary Confinement is out in a deck like this. Energy Field is totally counter to your plan in Thresh. Island Sanctuary is attacking the wrong part of the deck, and will be next to completely useless.
Tormod's Crypt, Samurai of the Pale Curtain, and Leyline of the Void seem like your best bets here. Engineered Explosives is also very good. The problem is that Ichorid can win in the first couple of turns. With your countermagic, you should be able to stall that enough to get a Samurai or EE, forcing them to go for the Grave-Troll plan, where Swords becomes your trump.
Ghostly Prison and Propaganda both cost 3. Ichorid will often have put the game away by then. If they haven't, these do nothing to stop them from continuing to go off, and then popping a Therapy, Disenchanting them while you're tapped out, and winning.
I'm always tired. I meant to say I run Control Magic because I like to steal Enforcers.
ICBE - We're totally the coolest Anti-Thesis ever.
"The Citrus-God just had a Citrus-Supernova... in your mouth."
That makes much more sense :) That's his primary purpose as far as I'm concerned.
Not to sound like one trick pony here, but if you actually got past FoW on turn 1 when they were on the draw, what would you be looking to Duress? Or would bypassing the whole disruption strategy be the right play here as you'll only help them reach Threshold sooner?
Edit: I read the card wrong.
Last edited by Versus; 08-14-2007 at 09:18 PM.
In painting, you have unlimited power. You have the ability to move mountains. You can bend rivers.
I never said that they were great solutions, and I acknowledged some problems with each. On the other hand, UGW is not a colour combination with a whole lot of feasible options against Ichorid.
The Samurai costs WW, which is unfortunate. He also needs to be cast early if he's to have much of an effect at all against Ichorid. Similarly, while Leyline is great, it also requires aggressive mulligans and it's absolutely putrid in UGW Thresh if it gets bounced, which is what Ichorid tries to do to Leyline of the Void. EE is good, yes, but it only really stops the Zombie rush once--it's a temporary solution, a stall tactic. Besides, there's very little for your countermagic to hit--I'd rather side it out for a decisive solution (assuming there's one in the board).Tormod's Crypt, Samurai of the Pale Curtain, and Leyline of the Void seem like your best bets here. Engineered Explosives is also very good. The problem is that Ichorid can win in the first couple of turns. With your countermagic, you should be able to stall that enough to get a Samurai or EE, forcing them to go for the Grave-Troll plan, where Swords becomes your trump.
If that's the argument you want to use against those two, then it works against Samurai as well (due to the WW, which isn't ideal, and also due to the fact that he will often come down too late to save you). The advantage of Prison and Propaganda lies in that they stop Ichorid's rush then and there--topdecking them is good. Similarly, while Crypt is great, it's really not as useful when the Zombie army has already been established. That's why I made the suggestions above (and bear in mind that I did not try to mask their flaws--but in an Ichorid-heavy metagame, they could pay off): when they come down, Ichorid needs to switch gears, something that it's not so good at.Ghostly Prison and Propaganda both cost 3. Ichorid will often have put the game away by then. If they haven't, these do nothing to stop them from continuing to go off, and then popping a Therapy, Disenchanting them while you're tapped out, and winning.
I guess we're at odds because we're suggesting two different strategies:
I am suggesting attacking Ichorid's attack phase, a move that essentially leaves Ichorid with few (if any, depending on the build) options.
You, on the other hand, seem to be more focused on eliminating the graveyard.
To be fair, I think that your solution is better, overall. Unfortunately, I don't think that it's particularly viable in this colour combination.
Honor the Fallen, Morning Tide, Elephant Grass, Ground Seal, and that's all I can think off within the first 10 secs off the top of my head.
Sideboard 15The Samurai costs WW, which is unfortunate. He also needs to be cast early if he's to have much of an effect at all against Ichorid. Similarly, while Leyline is great, it also requires aggressive mulligans and it's absolutely putrid in UGW Thresh if it gets bounced, which is what Ichorid tries to do to Leyline of the Void. EE is good, yes, but it only really stops the Zombie rush once--it's a temporary solution, a stall tactic. Besides, there's very little for your countermagic to hit--I'd rather side it out for a decisive solution (assuming there's one in the board).
4 Leyline of the Void
0-4 Serum Powder
0-4 Leyline of Singularity
I guess Leylines are good here...If that's the argument you want to use against those two, then it works against Samurai as well (due to the WW, which isn't ideal, and also due to the fact that he will often come down too late to save you). The advantage of Prison and Propaganda lies in that they stop Ichorid's rush then and there--topdecking them is good. Similarly, while Crypt is great, it's really not as useful when the Zombie army has already been established. That's why I made the suggestions above (and bear in mind that I did not try to mask their flaws--but in an Ichorid-heavy metagame, they could pay off): when they come down, Ichorid needs to switch gears, something that it's not so good at.
Leyline of Singularity would be good here too! The fact it turns Narcoebas into crap is what I like about it. I havent tested against the Life Breakfast builds yet though...
I say attack their graveyard before it becomes a problem to the board, so I suggest running a set of Leylines.I guess we're at odds because we're suggesting two different strategies:
I am suggesting attacking Ichorid's attack phase, a move that essentially leaves Ichorid with few (if any, depending on the build) options.
You, on the other hand, seem to be more focused on eliminating the graveyard.
To be fair, I think that your solution is better, overall. Unfortunately, I don't think that it's particularly viable in this colour combination.
ICBE - We're totally the coolest Anti-Thesis ever.
"The Citrus-God just had a Citrus-Supernova... in your mouth."
I have my doubts about Ground Seal, but the others are indeed fair suggestions; they're at least pretty much equivalent to the others that I suggested, at any rate.
Is that even a safe sideboard?Sideboard 15
4 Leyline of the Void
0-4 Serum Powder
0-4 Leyline of SingularityI don't think I'd want to devote so much to one(ish) matchup(s) unless the metagame was really saturated with Ichorid and grave-based decks.
Leyline of Singularity is definitely another option, and probably better than Void for a UGW deck. Now, I don't really play UGW Thresh so I won't test it (and I don't know the answer other than, perhaps, theoretically), but I wonder how effective it is more generally speaking? Have you tried it yourself?
At any rate, I think that D.I. Freund has a fair chunk of food for thought.
Regarding artifact/enchantment removal, I'm a bit torn between Krosan Grip - which is great - and Annul, which could do even better. The reason is that three mana is a bit much for a deck like this. Furthermore, there are some cards which Annul can handle and Grip can't...Standstill, Deed (if they activate it right after casting), Charbelcher, LED among the most prominent. It is probably worse against Vial, since you won't often be able to counter it...What's your opinion ?
georgjorgeGeistreich sind schon die anderen.
Yeah, thanks to you all... While looking through my binder I found another card that might be very good in the Ichorid and Goblins matchup: Duelling Grounds. It's not that narrow as eg. Tormod's Crypt and really shines in the Goblins Matchup and will probably therefore make it into my sideboard. The casting cost is a little restricitve but I think that you can just about stall Ichorid with early blockers and countermagic until you can bring it down.
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