Excellent, thanks.
Exactly why I asked. I can't think right when it comes to SB's. Probably cause most of my decks never had any.Why only 2 Plagues? I think that Jitte may be able to get rid of some goblins, so I'd leave it in.
What IS my answer to LAckey in that example? Simply that creatures greater than 1/1 ARE an answer? The Duress was merely to grap the Vial first turn if neccesary.don't get it why you would want to side out an answer to Lackey O_o. What in hell do you need Duress for?
I was gonna ask about that. I know the Wretch is good against Thresh, but was wondering as soon as someone sacks their creature to SotF, can I use the WW's abilty to imediately remove it?...Withered Wretch.
I considered maindecking Wretches over Anurids, but kept them for the extra power/toughness. The Anurid is better agaisnt Fanatics I suppose, but can be Bolted just as easily so maybe I should consider that change?
In painting, you have unlimited power. You have the ability to move mountains. You can bend rivers.
Anything that prevents a Lackey from swinging unblocked turn 2 is an answer. So leave those Carnophages (hell, they even trade with Piledriver!) in. Why are you so afraid of Vial?Originally Posted by Versus
Anurid trades with Mongeese and its drawback becomes negligible vs Thresh, so it's not that bad either.
Yes. They discard it and you get to remove their Genesis/Anger/Squee/whatever even before they search their library.
I think so. If I look at the "Decks to Beat" Forum I see:I considered maindecking Wretches over Anurids, but kept them for the extra power/toughness. The Anurid is better agaisnt Fanatics I suppose, but can be Bolted just as easily so maybe I should consider that change?
Thresh --- Wretch is great.
Goblins --- Anurid sucks.
Belcher --- Anurid sucks.
Loam --- Wretch is great.
Landstill --- about even. Anurid has nearly no drawback, Wretch can remove dead manlands.
RGSA --- Wretch is great.
Also, Ichorid and Breakfast see more and more play.
Team SPOD[23:08:50] <@Anusien> You want me to actually test?
[23:09:02] <frogboy> I thought you already had
Alright, that all makes sense to me. I'm more than willing to replace the 2 Anurids with 2 Wretches. Maybe I should do that and run 2 WW's maindeck and nix the Rods for 2 more in the SB?
Other than being another answer to the Charbelcher the Null Rod isn't really helpful anywhere else?
In painting, you have unlimited power. You have the ability to move mountains. You can bend rivers.
Null Rod is only good in the following matchups:
Belcher/TES/Iggy (should you be scared with the full pack of Duress, Hymn, Therapy and Plague?)
Affinity (does anybody play that?)
Golden Grahams (^ )
and that's it. So it should be replaced.
Edit: it also sucks in conjunction with Jitte.
Team SPOD[23:08:50] <@Anusien> You want me to actually test?
[23:09:02] <frogboy> I thought you already had
Ugh! Never even crossed my mind. You wouldn't be able to attach it, but are removing the counters considered a "cost"? Reguardless, you're right it's not needed here. Thank you for all the input. I'll still need some real time experience, but I feel much more capable now.
In painting, you have unlimited power. You have the ability to move mountains. You can bend rivers.
It is considered as a cost. I run 3 null rods in my sideboard and i have always liked them. Combo isnt exactly a by, and it is good against a variety of decks. Vial affinity has had some form of a comeback and took second at the 4 sea drake thing in hadley.
I dont know if i like cabal therapy. If you dont hit anything in there hand then its a attack on your tempo. Im not saying its a bad card, but this deck wants to have as much creatures on the board as possible.
I might be playing my pile saturday to, but its still hazy if i will be going.
Call me Ishmael
No kiddin'?! How so? Is it technically speaking because the "removing part" is the payment or the converting the counter to do what you want it to do?
So it's gonna be a meta choice then for me? Lets say you were going to play in a new state with all new people and had no idea what the meta was like in that region, that's how I need to make my SB for the first few times. It's like a clean slate for me. That being said, would you go with the Rod?I run 3 null rods in my sideboard and i have always liked them. Combo isnt exactly a by, and it is good against a variety of decks. Vial affinity has had some form of a comeback and took second at the 4 sea drake thing in hadley.
I always saw CT as a compliment to Duress. Upon doing so if you see your threat, especially in multiples you follow it up with CT and you can't miss, you already know.dont know if i like cabal therapy. If you dont hit anything in there hand then its a attack on your tempo. Im not saying its a bad card, but this deck wants to have as much creatures on the board as possible.
Good luck to you if you make it out.I might be playing my pile saturday to, but its still hazy if i will be going.
In painting, you have unlimited power. You have the ability to move mountains. You can bend rivers.
Yes, removing a counter is the activation cost.
I would probably still play the nul rods because there good for all combo and combo is represented in mostmetagames, but i would probably play something less narrow then tormod's crypt. I would suggest planar void but you run rotting giant.
Call me Ishmael
I'm only running 2 Giants, they can be SB'd out for the Voids easily enough and the price is right, I have loads of Urza Block cards lying around. The Jitte and Needles killed my wallet this past week so I'm more than happy to go that route. You still suggest using 3 in place of the Cyrpt?
Also, what would be your suggestion on replacing the 3 Cabal Therapy slots since you mentioned it before?
Edit: Forget I asked that! LOL I know all the cards suited for Sui even the ones I missed post Invasion I should be able to decide for myself. Also, Sarcomancy-Negator-Giant are great synergy imo and I'm not gonna change that because a card is cheaper.
I'm waffling like crazy here. It's one thing to tweak a deck to make it better, but to change it around every day when you haven't played anyone except your wife at the kitchen table is just getting rediculous.
Last edited by Versus; 08-17-2007 at 08:14 AM.
In painting, you have unlimited power. You have the ability to move mountains. You can bend rivers.
Void is so much harder to play around then crypt. Void also has the added bonus that most g-yard hate doesnt of being able to completely shut down goyf. Even if they dont have an answer to crypt, normally decks like ichorid can easily recover from it. Void is good because it completely shuts off the deck it gets sided in for unless they answer it, buying you many turns or simply winning the game on its own.
Call me Ishmael
This looks like a really fun deck archetype. I have been playing UG Madness for a while and I wanted to try something new. Suicide Black looks cheaper too without all the sac and dual lands..... Great topic so far. Would appreciate some suggestions for my mainboard. I will work on sideboard later.
Creatures
4 Nantuko Shade
3 Rotting giant
1 Wretched Annurid
4 Hippies
4 Carnophage
4 Sarcomonacy
Removal
4 Umezawa's jitte
4 Diabolic Edict
Disruption
4 Duress
4 Hymn To Tourach
Mana
4 Dark Ritual
3 Wasteland
17 Swamps
Not sure about the Hippies, but they do add some Disruption and also swing with the Jitte flying. Makes it a bit easier to get counters on my fork without having to trade most of the time.
Suggestions for your mainboard:
1) You're running 3x Wasteland and 0 Sinkholes. Cut the land destruction entirely or run it in full capacity. I think your list would probably better without it personally.
2) I think you'll want more disruption than just 4x Duress and 4x Hymn to Tourach. I suggest upping your discard effects and just focus on hand disruption by adding in 4x Cabal Therapy (This should make your disprution elements more effective in general by focusing them rather than having a fair amount of everything). I think you could cut some of the removal in order to fit these in better. The Stark suicide black builds rarely need the amounts of spot removal I see alloted to them. The build has a slew of creatures and you should be playing the beatdown against virtually every deck.
3) Rotting Giant and Wretched Anurid... I assume you grabbed this creature base from Red Death. These creatures are generally the last 4x slot filled because all the other options are considerably better. They are still lightning bolt and stp fodder, and at best 3/3's which while good are nowhere near fantastic. Negator is risky but generally considered an acceptable risk. Plus if you have a ritual in hand, a first turn hippie or negator swings the game highly in your favor. I would even turn to pump or the 'jump' knight over Giant and Anurid. Heck even Withered Wretch may be a better choice.
4) You might also consider Chrome Mox for additional acceleration. 2x or 3x in place of a few swamps/wastelands wouldn't be bad.
tea cup: I would play negators over giant. its a much bigger creature and you dont have many ways to fill yor graveyard. I would also play sinkholes to complement your wastelands... personally think that the mana denial route is the way to go, and i believe that you dont need to ru more then 6 as galroth believes. I have shared my views on shade and confidant time and time again, but since you only run 17 swamps i would suggest running bob over nantuko.
good luck with the deck.
Call me Ishmael
Thanks for the help. Well, it seems pretty unanimous that Negator has the edge over the Giant and Annurid. Can you give me a few examples how games play out with the Negator. It feels very risky to me, although I can see why it can bring the hurt to the opponent. I suppose the white splash is the more popular threshold splash though. Even so, trading with anything can hurt. I suppose the sinkholes and the wasteland can even the playing fields a bit and keep them off of mana. The Negator is a threat thats needs answering.
About those dang sinkholes, what would be a solid budget alternative to it in the mean time. I thought edict would be nice as it is never really a dead card. Is there anything better to throw in for now? Meh, I see why sinkholes and Wastelands are nice. I am going to have to go ebay hunting lol. This could be a while....
I think Bob and the Shade are more style choices. I read some of your posts techno and they made sense. Still, I am inclined towards the more beat face as soon as possible side of it. It is a shame that they are both somewhat pricey creatures and I dont want to buy one and find out I need the other lol. Its time to proxy test!
Oops... I just remembered Galroth's suggestion of Cabal Therapy. Hmmm, yeah I may go for that instead of Edict. I do have 20 creatures and that should be plenty to compliment it. Still, I usually dont feel comfortable with it unless I got off a duress first. I just hate whiffing with it.....
Edit Note: Just won 4 Cabal Therapies for $10 on ebay!!!!! Heh, these puppies are now going into my deck.
Last edited by LordEvilTeaCup; 08-19-2007 at 01:40 PM.
Umm heres what happens when a negator goes unanwsered. Turn 1 play negator... Turn 4 or less win. For creature removal play smother over edict... dont replace them with therapy. A alternative to sinkhole that i have seen here is encroach. 1 mana to yank a land out of there hand. Gratz on getting th therapies for o cheap but i dont know if i would play them.
Call me Ishmael
I am not sure why Cabal Therapy should not be played. I have 20 creatures which is more enough flashback fodder. It can seriously rip into hands, and fits with the general hand disruption theme of the deck. It just seems really powerful here. I am definitely open to why it is not good here, but it seems a stronger than smother.
Heh, just noticed you posted already on the subject above. Meh, I can always sell my therapies for profit if they dont work out in play testing lol.
Techno: I understand the benefits of Void, and the Giants aren't very dear to me. I have found them to be effective without any drawback. Only running 2 I've always had a card in the GY to utilize him, but as I said it's not a neccesity that he stays. However, running Void is going to cause some disynergy with Cabal Therapy. I know you're not a fan of using them, but I think a Duress followed by Therapy can be brutal. You're guaranteed at least 1 card and maybe 2. I have the 4 of them coming in the mail, so I havent had experience with them yet. I don't know how often the reusing of one is going to be.
Diabolic Edict has helped win games for me. I can't not see it's inclusion here. Smother is a solid choice though. Tarmy, most goblins, Bears all fit the bill. Edict could grab all those including a Mongoose. I guess it's just preference here. Back in the day White Weenie with Paladins. Knights, and Soltari were huge so maybe my opinion of it is dated, but I still stand by it's inclusion.
LordEvilTeaCup: You're deck is very similar to mine, so I'll chime in here as well. What everyone has said is right. Their veiws differ concerning running LD, but I think they both agree (as do I) that if you run one (Wastes) you run the other(Sink).
I've cut the Anurids from my deck completely and replaced them with 2 Wretches main/2 SB. I'm thinking their drawback may cause me some grief. Also my Rotting Giants as most likely getting the boot and I'm putting Pump Knights back in. The first strike (w/Jitte) and protection from STP is a big plus imo. Still (as I've said a 100 times now) I'm gonna play it out and see first what has to go. I wasn't able to this weekend, but there's a tourny on the 25th I WILL be attending.
And I just won 4 Cabal Therapy on ebay for $6.50!
In painting, you have unlimited power. You have the ability to move mountains. You can bend rivers.
HA HA HA, good stuff Versus. Hmmm, yeah I just looked at your list and I guess we just think on similar linesAnd I just won 4 Cabal Therapy on ebay for $6.50!. What I like about your list in comparison to mine was the 17 swamps. I always like to fit more answers if possible and perhaps its time to take out the wastelands. Have you been getting enough mana though? I might try 18 swamps and throw in 2 Smothers or something. *Smacks self in the Head* I forgot smother killed Tarmy..... Please, show the world at the tourney why Cabal Therapy belongs in the deck! I will admit I am infatuated with the look of the card. I hope I don't have to get rid of the little guys
.
This is really my first time using hand destruction as sort of a preemptive answer to what my opponent my have. I am much more used to Force of Wills and the like. That being said, is 4 Duress 4 Hymn 4 Hippie AND 4 Cabal Therapy why too much discard to be relevant? If so, I see it as Hippie versus Cabal here. The Hippies could become a face beating creature. The Therapy well could become Smother or Sinkhole (Which is expensive money wise...) Like I said, I never played discard so I wouldnt even know how much is too much.
No, I don't think Duress/Hymn/Hyppy/Cabal is too much disruption. I see it this way, you already have 20 creatures, the suitable amount mana. Besides removal and disruption, there isn't anything else you could bring to the table being mono black besides card drawing. Then we're talking Dark Confidants and that's a whole 'nother discussion. The camps are split on that.
As far as options beside what you're running:
Removal: You have the Edicts and Jitte. Smother is a great card too as we've said so is Snuff Out.
Accelerants: You have the 4 Ritual. The only thing you could change here is the addition of 2 Chrome Moxes for even more speed. I've found personally that 16 Swamp and 2 Moxes are good, but I wasn't a fan of losing the card to imprint on the Mox so I stuck with 17 straight Swamps. To answer your question I consistantly draw 2 lands in my opening hand.
LD: This approach takes on a more control oriented stance and theres nothing wrong with that, but it's not "Suicide" Black imo. This is a totally viable deck design, but you need the Sinks/Waste and I would no doubt run Confidant here.
Creatures: This in my opinion is the biggest debate on what players of this archetype prefer. Hyppies/No Hyppies? 1 drop Zombies? Some abide by them others think they are dated and should go. Negators? Risky, but lethal. Wretches? What's your meta like? Lots of Thresh and Survival? YES! I think Nantuko Shade is the ONLY slot that is consistant in 90% of the deck lists you see. Most important is make sure they have synergy.
My advice is just take the deck out and see what it does. You can always tune it for your environment afterwards.
LOL If by "world" you mean 8-10 people in a sweaty comic shop, I'll do my best!Please, show the world at the tourney why Cabal Therapy belongs in the deck!
In painting, you have unlimited power. You have the ability to move mountains. You can bend rivers.
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