Along with manaburn from LED and Cephalid Coliseum. Gemstone Mine and City of Brass seem best.
In testing Im smashing Breakfast. Your faster than they and you can do silly things like Dread Return a huge Gravetroll that Sutured Ghoul has problems with or get Platinum Angel into play.
Out of the board Leyline hurts them very very badly. They have few ways to get out of it and they cant afford to board in their own against you because of constraining sb space.
I have added a new card to the maindeck. It was worked in as a strange sb option but has since been added main for the ridiculous plays Ive been able to do with it. I dont plan on releasing info to anyone but my team until Epic Dual Land Draft. The only detail I can go into is cutting one copy of Ichorid. OH NOES!
The Gencon list was terrible, please disregard his build and make a copy of mine.
Now playing real formats.
Just a random question: during your upkeep, can you put the Ichorid trigger on the stack then dredge (with Coliseum or something) to find black guys to pitch to him?
Yes.
YOU'RE GIVING ME A TIME MACHINE IN ORDER TO TREAT MY SLEEP DISORDER.
You're so very humble...Originally Posted by Bane of the Living
Also, Stern Proctor answers Leyline, and they have many ways to tutor for it. Sure, Leyline is strong, in that it makes them blow a tutor and a turn to answer it, but it's not the be-all-end-all of the matchup.
I do think Ichorid should do better against the newer Breakfast lists, running Cabal Therapy over Daze, however. Walking a Breakthrough into Daze can be back-breaking, but if you don't throw it out there, you might not have time before you die. Therapy is substantially less scary.
TEAM DRAGONFORCIA-
Ghost ridin' the whip like we invented that shit.
TEAM UNICORN
We're going for number four!
No really just look at the list. Assuming you play Ichorid it would baffle me if you dont also agree. I hear rumors that he couldnt scrap together all the cards needed on time but that might be an excuse for a shooty build. Just so we're all on track with his list here..
1) Underground Sea
This guy is actually going with the Reverant Silences. I think 2 Ray and 4 Chain of Vapor are more than enough to take out the leyline that no ones playing. If he's actually going with RS he needs to retool his manabase to include actual forests. He has only one and it isnt even a Dryad Arbor. No fetches, just a random Trop.
2) Lotus Petal
Lotus Petal is worse than a land always. This isnt a storm combo deck where you need to up your storm count and invest all in one turn. The few lands in the deck are precious. Their most important use is the sb cards. Lotus Petal is awfull with Deep Analysis since you burn up your mana source casting something like Breakthrough or Pimp and your left with nothing to play DA.
I could actually tie 2 and 3 together for the anti synergy with Reverant Silence. If he was running Trops over Petals at least he'd have the chance to cast his RS's.
3) Wonder
There are two islands in the deck. Just two.. I dont need to say anymore.
4) Carefull Study
I dont have a beef with the card itself just the fact he's running additional spells you need mana for when he's playing 3 blue sources less than standard builds. These could just be Street Wraiths at least.
5) No golden mana
He's running PImp and Reverant Silence. Thats an issue right there. He could go with Emerald Charms but he still needs lands that produce three colors of mana that way.
6) Random one ofs
The one of Unmask and Chalice are awfull, they could be relevant one ofs such as Ray of Revelation, Ancient Grudge, Platinum Angel, Bogardan Hellkite, the list goes on.. Unmask and Chalice need to be in opening hand and have no synergy with the deck.
I dont think Im arrogant in assuming my list is the best. The five color manabase has more than proven its worth. The land count is perfect for casting critical sb spells. To each his own as far as personal strategy. If you have something up your sleeve to fit in your build go for it, thats what this games about. However Ive provided the most efficient shell for Ichorid to work from. My results with the deck are..
4-0-2
4-0-2
4-2
4-2
5-1
I havent been close to a losing record with the deck. It plays very unfair compared to other legacy decks. It makes the opponent the control player at all times. Your faster than almost any deck in the format and your resistant to counterspells and creature removal. Aggro combo has always been the most powerfull combination of archetypes since you have an aggro default win when combo fails. Think Skullclamp Affinity or Food Chain goblins.
Of course CB has Stern Proctor for Leyline but it forces them into a tight situation. Rather than tutor for their first or second combo pieces they need to find the proctor. Leyline coupled with your insanely fast clock is pretty bad for them. Do you think CB can tutor for proctor and play him and combo off before the zombies swarm them?
Aether Vial isnt good against Ichorid like it is against control decks, its slow and often wastes your turn. My team actually came up with the boarding strategy for goblins which includes removing Vials for games 2-3.
CB's only threat is Force of Will and a possible turn two combo. That sounds like alot to those unexperienced with the matchup but when you factor your own speed and your Leylines it makes things comfortable for you. They dont really have ways to remove your bridges. Their creatures cant sac themselves and they dont play removal. Their only hope is to block with a Nomad and let it die. This is slim since its a combo piece they wont want to lose. Goyf is generally to large to die.
Now playing real formats.
Hey Bane, could you post your list minus sekrit teks right now? I can't seem to find it in the last 6 pages and am very interested in it considering that you think it is close to perfect.
Kronicler
Team Info-Ninjas: Catchphrases so secret, I don't even know what they are!
Why not then I dont have to type it to 5 people a day.
4 Coliseum
4 CoB
4 Gemstone
4 LED
4 Breakthrough
3 DA
3 Ichorid
4 Bridge
3 Dread
1 FKZ
1 Sage
3 PImp
4 Meoba
4 Troll
4 Stinky
3 Thug
4 Therapy
3 ???
Thats the maindeck.
1 Platinum
2 Ray of Rev
4 Chain
4 Needle
4 LotV
Thats the board.
Now playing real formats.
Secret Tech that warrants cutting an Ichorid could be Street Wraith but I am sure you didn't have Street Wraith in your board before as a "strange sb option".
One with Nothing comes to mind as additional LED's but again why would you play this in your board before?
Another idea I have is Dryad Arbor but it seems strange as a 3-of. (Maybe that's just me and my affinity for symetry)
"Anybody want some . . . toast?" —Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
The cut to 3 Ichorids is freaky I admit. I dont think I can pull this off and be happy with it unless I was running Leyline to assure Bridge stays around. I might go to two mystery cards and back to 4 Ichy.
EDIT
Im getting all kinds of emails so rather than answer some of them twice Ill do so here.
Landstill
First off, go into both of these matchups confidant, theyre great for you.
Landstill is one matchup where taking a mulligan is not so important. Infact you could mulligan to more busted hands but often shouldnt since going to eight cards and using the discard phase is tech against them. There's no way Landstill can put a clock on you that will ruin this strategy. They have two cards you need to be concerned with. One is Force of Will obviously. Always name it with therapy to rid yourself of the only way to stop comboing.
Engineered Explosive is the other card you dont want to see since it can stop you from winning in one turn. Thats pretty much all its good at however. I dont even know what else to add aside from the board strategy. The matchup is nearly a bye for you.
Ill usually side out the Flamekin Zealot, one Ichorid (in my four Ichy build) and one Dread return. Leaving myself the option to make a big troll. In come Pithing Needle. The only things you care about are Mishras Factory nurfing your bridges and Explosives/Deed.
Remember that activating Cephalid Coliseum is huge when attempting a spelless game since it cant be countered. Most builds of Landstill dont even contain yard hate. Laughable.
Thresh
This is where Therapy shines. You usually want to name Tarmagoyf with your therapies. Hes their threat against you. Force of Will is problematic but you have the discard phase and you can flashback therapies to force key spells such as DA and Dread.
Red Thresh can be a bit tricky since they could be running clasm main or sb. Just dont play foolishly and try to therapy it before leaving 10 tokens on the table. Red Thresh has no answer to a 15/15 troll. With White Thresh your strategy only changes to compensate for Swords. Therapy it if your going for Ichorid beats rather than zombie rush.
Against either version sb out your FKZ since you dont need the uberfast win. Attrition is king. Against Red thresh leave Dread Return for Troll killz but against White take it out. If they know what they're doing they will name Dread Return with Meddling Mage. You not only (usually) nullify MM with this tactic but you keep yourself from eating hot Swords to Plowshares and keep it as a mediocre card for them.
Goyf is really the only card to give a shit about it. The only way you can really lose is by Dredging awfull or seeing goyfs turns 2 and 3.
Oh and when you sb in Leyline the thresh matchup becomes a joke.
Do people want any strategy outline for other matchups?? I think Ive played against mostly everything at this point.
Now playing real formats.
I was going to guess at old friends Ashen Ghoul and/or Nether Shadow, but they don't seem really capable of enabling "ridiculous plays", and the Ghoul is tricky to activate with only eight black mana producers. Then again, they're both perfect candidates for cutting an Ichorid.
Castable flashback cards seem Acorn Harvest (2/3 of a Dread Return for two mana), Flash of Defiance (meh), Folk Medicine (pointless), Traitor's Clutch (huge unblockable Troll?).
As for interesting reanimation targets, there are a ton of those (from Caller of the Claw to Karmic Guide, from Sun Quan, Lord of Wu to Angel of Despair), but the fact that you ran it as a 3-of pretty much precludes that.
Just throwing something out. Guessing at mystery cards is always fun :)
YOU'RE GIVING ME A TIME MACHINE IN ORDER TO TREAT MY SLEEP DISORDER.
This "sekret tehcs" crap is really getting annoying lol, no offense or anything but I can only assume the tech isnt very good if it hasnt already been mentioned in this thread or thought of by anyone else, Id love to be to proven wrong though.
Yeah, and those secret techs are not even good.
Yesterday I played on a small tournament with 12 people and went 3rd with a 3-1 record, losing zu Slivers (by the way, it's the 6th tournament in a row where I was tormented by Slivers and always just went X-1 -.-).
I can't help it, but I won't play Ichorid at the German Legacy Championship due to the lack of consitency.
Against Slivers I lost 2-1 because in the 3rd game, I dredged about 30 cards and didn't see any Moebas or Bridges. And I didn't saw that Darkheart Sliver coming...(he played a small Black Splash for Hibernation Sliver afaik).
That was unlucky.
But I annihilated the other 3 opponents Life, Enchantress (random build and random scrub piloting) and Goblins.
Life fucked me g2 because he had his combo together within 3 turns and I kept a slow hand. g3 I took my revenge by 1st turn killing him.
Ah, and about the secret techs: They are stupid. Some opponents won't board out Swords to Plowshares since they can disrupt a littlebit with them (like swording a Narcomoeba when you dredged a 2nd one and the trigger is on the stack -> no tokens).
So Platinum Angel is only good when facing Combo, but a lots of combodecks have outs against him (Iggy pop maybe not, but IGGy Pop could also just mulligan to Ley-Line, autowinning g1).
Somehow I got 2 different feelings. It's the best Ichorid build ever and it can be fast and explosive, but sometimes also very very inconsistent.
I think I should better shuffle my deck properly...
Team SPOD
<Der_imaginäre_Freund> props:
Adan for being the NQG God (drawer)
I've been playing Ichorid in our local tournament yesterday. There were 16 people, so 4 rounds of swiss. My build was pretty standard(with rainbow lands), but I couldn't find a Platinum Angel in time.
My first game was against Counter slivers.
Game 1 I killed him turn 3 without any defense except him playing out some useless 2/2 slivers.
Game 2 he explosived away a bunch of zombies and the got taken down by ichorids and a 14/14 GGT.
My next match was against goblins.
Game 1 I didn't go for the eot discard plan because I knew what he was playing and thought this would be much too slow against goblins.
To say it short: I mulled to oblivion and got killed turn 4 .
Game 2 I second round killed him .
Game 3 was very very close. I got first turn Pimp, he got Lackey.
I discarded a Stinkweed Imp eot and dredged it getting an ichorid. Next turn he attacked with his lackey and I blocked with stinky, getting treshoold after damage on stack. He still got a mogg fanatic this turn.
Then the shit happened: I dredge the troll and got all 4 bridges in my grave with this one dredge. He removes all four and I fail to kill him with ichorids.
Round 3 was against Aggro-Loam.
To make it short: He did nothing both games and after boarding it became even nastier for him with the leylines.
Round 4 was against red *****.
I was on the draw and went for the eot discard. After dredging the first time I had already 3 bridges in my GY. On turn 3 though he had two 6/7 goyfs, but in each of my upkeeps I reanimated an ichorid to get 3 tokens eot. He attacked each turn and after some more dredges the token became too many and he lost.
In general the deck played out much smoother than I expected, but I had some problems with the Sideboard.
I had no clue what to take out in those matchups and so I sideboarded very random. For example against goblins 4 leylines came in and I took out:
1 ichorid, 1 golgari thug, 1 dread returns, 1 cabal therapy.
Please could someone who is good with the deck(probably bane) post how to sideboard against the following decks:
Goblins, Hannifish with Counterbalance, Aggro-Loam(kind of Terrageddon without confinement)
Could anyone tell me what his early gameplan is? Do you try to go up to 2 lands before breaking into LED/breakthrough or do you go straight forward as soon as possible?
It depends. If you have a sick hand like LED, Breakthrough, 4 Dredgers, Cephalid Coliseum, the obvious play is to just go nuts on turn one. Play land, LED, Breakthrough popping LED in response, DREDGE x4 and most likely win.
Some decks that have a really slow clock (Survival or random bad aggro) you can slowplay, hit 2+ lands and then play out the deck after you have more options.
It also depends on what deck you're playing against. On the draw against Threshold, you might just want to wait until your discard phase and drop a dredge guy and hope to hit Ichorids/uncounterable threats.
I don't know if it's the "Secret Tech" or not, but Brainstorm offers a lot of interesting possibilities, ranging from loading your Narcomoebas back on top of your library to allowing a triple dredge and getting a pair of GGT's out of your hand and back atop your library for future dredging.
This deck can occasionally dredge 30 cards without seeing a meoba or something like bridge. It just happens. Its the price you pay when welding such a powerfull deck. Look at the example of Muridans game against thresh, sometimes you'll get the bad luck returned to you five fold.
I have no problem losing one out of ten games to myself when the other nine are insanely quick unstoppable wins. The deck may have problems with things like wicked random Leylines or sometimes gobs but look at all the byes the deck has.
Id keep practicing if you feel like the deck is inconsistant. Sometimes you get unluckey but other times you just need experience.
I posted a sideboarding strategy a couple pages back.
Now playing real formats.
Why is everyone running so many lands? I've been absolutely fine with just 10. Dredging lands into the yard is dead, and often (like against Landstill or Thresh) you don't even make lands drops (as to stay at max hand size to be able to discard EoT).
Has anyone else tested fewer lands? If not, you should try it.
TEAM DRAGONFORCIA-
Ghost ridin' the whip like we invented that shit.
TEAM UNICORN
We're going for number four!
I like having eight chances to draw a rainbow land for my sbing options and 12 lands to reliably cast anything out of the board such as Needles and CoV. Sideboarding lands is for fools. I have gone to 3 Gemstones and I felt like I missed the fourth. To each his own. Im not lucky enough to have one in every opener.
Now playing real formats.
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