[Deck Idea] Hulk Smash, is it possible in Legacy

[JACO]

Have you done any research or searching about this before posting this? Do a search for DredgeATog on these boards and TMD, and you'll find plenty of ideas. As an example, here's some discussion, and one of the last versions I worked on can be found here.

Crap like Bayou, Nimble Mongoose, Academy Ruins, Crime/Punishment, and Extirpate are probably all a waste of time, and dilute the strengths of the deck. Counter some stuff, draw and dredge tons of cards quickly, and kill your opponent. Tarmogoyf is most likely worth putting in at this point as an alternative kill, in light of random crap running around like Extirpate and Haunting Echoes.

A well built Psychatog deck can play the Aggro/Control/Combo parts effectively when necessary.

[Maveric78f]

I have never tested this list. It's just an intuitive list and I you said, it's far to be perfect. Against Stax, the removal is not dead, even edict can remove a magus of the tabernacle. About goblins, you are supposed to race them, either with a 4th turn deed or with an alpha tog strike at turn 5 or 6. Tarmogoyf should give a lot of consistence to these plans.

Against burn, we goldfish approximately at the same speed, except that I have counterspells. Except playing golgari brownscale, I have no idea for improving the MU...

About the lands, you are probably true. Academy is cute but that's all and bayou was included just to play around a bad extirpate on tropical island od underground sea. Extirpate in SB is here to refuse some graveyard recursion that are more and more played (genesis puff frog, confinement, glacial chasm, ...) and it is always a good card (very funny to extirpate tarmogoyfs of thresh, they lose 75% or their kill conditions.

I used to play also Deep Analysis in some Dredgeatog variant but I never liked it, it was too painful and quite difficult to get rid of when it was in hand.

Thank you forthe pointers, I'll go there and read when I have time.

[Benie Bederios]

Have you done any research or searching about this before posting this? Do a search for DredgeATog on these boards and TMD, and you'll find plenty of ideas. As an example, here's some discussion, and one of the last versions I worked on can be found here.

Crap like Bayou, Nimble Mongoose, Academy Ruins, Crime/Punishment, and Extirpate are probably all a waste of time, and dilute the strengths of the deck. Counter some stuff, draw and dredge tons of cards quickly, and kill your opponent. Tarmogoyf is most likely worth putting in at this point as an alternative kill, in light of random crap running around like Extirpate and Haunting Echoes.

A well built Psychatog deck can play the Aggro/Control/Combo parts effectively when necessary.

Thanks for the links, I hadn't found the first one. The second list, was my favorite for quite some time, but the manabase was to yanky. I was stuck on 2 mana to many times. The second problem was, that I always seem to dredge my Cunning Wishes away when I needed them and I really missed Pernicious Deed.

Extirpate is very good as wishtarget, but doesn't deserve a MD slot.

@Maveric: After SB burn can bring in REB's wich are just better counters and also have the text: kill target Psychatog. They might also bring in Crypt or even Ensnarring Bridge. I would think it isn't a nice matchup post-board.

I tested your deck some things more than others. I found you had to much control.

Next to that the deck really can't race goblins. Most new lists run StP to deal with Tarmogoyf. Tarmogoyf give you some protection, but when you are looking at double Piledriver and something else you have a very rough time beating it.

I've build a possible deck myself( using alot apects I liked from other decks) but am still testing it, when I think it's ready I will post it here.

BB

[Maveric78f]

I tested a bit my list. Exactly the same except the reclaim that I changed for another card I can't even remember.

Finally, I ended winning all my games on MWS yesterday but one (on 10 or 15 matches, but opponent left often after or during game1), which does not mean much, because of the week overall level, except the ability of the deck to be regular, and except that it is always a better sign to win than to lose.

I played against one burn, and I raced him twice while I lost for 1 life (1fetch) another. Against burn you should have a goldfish play, knowing that you can kill very regularly kill on turn 6 after counterspelling or forcing 2 or 3 spells, which is enough. The game I lost was really frustrating, as I had 3 lifes, 2 untapped land + a fetch, and cunning wish (for misdirection probably) in hand as my only counterspell. He fulltaped to play magma jet that I did not redirect and a fireblast he played just after.

I also played against some random gobs and they did not make any harm. The main point here is to prevent them from playnig a first turn lackey. If they don't find any, just play 1 or 2 creatures. They will need to go on their long-term strategy with matron going for ringleader or something like this, although you only need 2 or 3 turns to make your psychatog lethal. I would not recommand to side out the counterspells as the gob player would try to overwhelm you by playing creatures via vial but also hardcasted. Against the white splash gobs, I also recommand to keep counterspells in, in order to protect your fatties from STP. The SB would be +3stifle -1Crime/Punishment -2intuition.

Against Gob or Burn I did not face any REB, and it's true it's quite a chance. I don't know if it's that much sided these last days, as tarmogoyf is the main concern of everybody.

Contrarily to Benie, I liked the control part of the deck and the ability to transform Crime/Punishment in a kill is interesting. I am considering to play 1*wolrath's stronghold too, and maybe 1 witness but I don't know instead of what. My SB toolbox is also too big for the moment and I plan to remove 4 slots for another real SB option, depending on the meta.

[Maveric78f]

I remember what I played instead of reclaim : the tabernacle. Good against gob, good against combo (even if it may be too late if we have to intuition for it).


I have seen your dredge-atog concept JACO. While interesting, it's not really the direction I would take. I prefer the control part being randomly fast (killing on turn 6) than trying to be fast and not beig able to face any problem. However some inspiration can be found from your list :
- stinkweed imp : very good against threshold definitely : evasive, not coutnerbalanceable easily, recurrent, kills goyfs and mongooses. Very synergic with edict.
- I like darkblast also against gob and dark confidant of course but it wins also tarmogoyf mirrors.
- I like corpse dance too. It's very good for chump block with stinkweed for instance (it would not removed from the game in this case).
- gift ungiven might be better in SB than intuition.

Other questions :
- what do you think about thwart as the SB free counterspell. Usually if you play cunning wish, it means that you have 3 islands in play and often you have more than that. It is quite synergic with tog. It looks more interesting than counterspell anyway, because you rarely keep 5 mana opened (LftL recursion is costly).
- when you play against belcher, would you enter 4*stifle or only 3* in order to be able to wish it ?

Here are the changes I plan to make :
MD :
-1 tropical island
+1 breeding pool (extirpate got me once)
-1 island
+1 wolrath's stronghold
-1 Wish
+1 stinkweed imp
-1 crime/punishement
+1 witness

SB :
1*Edict
1*Berserk
1*Extirpate
1*Krosan Grip
1*Misdirection
1*Gift Ungiven
1*Corpse Dance
1*Thwart (I give it a try but it may be devoted to a metagame slot)
4*Stifle
3*Metagame slots (engineered plague, grave hate, slot filling : 1*counterspell, 1*crime/punishement, 1*deed for instance, ...)

[DeathwingZERO]

A friend and I are actually working on a version that's the closest thing you'll ever see to the Vintage version of the deck. It's actually had rather solid plays, packing City of Traitors + Loam, Intuition + AK engine, as well as a number of Gifts to just randomly throw out absolute game swinging plays. I'm pretty sure the list is going to be under wraps for a while, but if it comes to light before either of us get the chance to play it in a large tournament I'll try to get a writeup here.

All I can say is the deck's manabase is so fast right now it's having no trouble being able to pack a number of Intuition, Facts AND Gifts. This deck has absolutely no shortage of draw power.

Oh, and it's maindecking 4 Goyfs, cause it's just dumb to not play them.

[Benie Bederios]

Allright, time has come to give you my take on the deck.

Kill

3 Psychatog
3 Veldalken Shackles

In the current version I play three Psychatog and it is enough, no need to go to four, and dropping to two might be to risky.
The idea of playing Veldalken Shackles in Tog is used in both Trubo Tog and some Dredge-A-Tog lists. It can really be gamebreaking and can stall for quite some turns, until Psychatog comes into play and finish the game. Sometimes it wins the game all by himself.

Card for card control

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Duress

Force of Will is an autoinclude in the deck, it simply one of the best cards in Legacy, especially in a deck that has such a drawing power that pitching a card hardly is a problem. Counterspell is still a strong counter. Those two cards makes sure the most problematic things won't come through. Next to that I added Duress. It is still a strong play: it gives information about your opponent's deck and can snatch alot of cards. It might become Thoughseize but I don't know if the abilty of snatching a creature is worth the two lives.

Board control

3 Pernicious Deed

This is, next to Veldalken Shackles, the only needed control component the deck needs MD. Pernicious Deed can reset the board and forces your opponent to completely rebuild his board or clear the board for a Psychatog.

Carddraw

3 Fact or Fiction
1 Opt
4 Brainstorm
4 Accumulated Knowledge

This is alot of drawing power. Fact or Fiction normally nails you the best two cards of the top five most of the time while giving Psychatog more food. Accumulated Knowledge, isn't bad on itself( only the first one is quite weak) and combined with Intuition it's is still a powerfull card. Brainstorm and Opt both fulfill the role of cardfiltering. Opt is rather weak, but I like instant carddraw. I found it in another list( can't find anymore) and it stayed in after that.

Tutor

3 Cunning Wish
3 Intuition

Cunning Wish is almost an autoinclude for Hulk Smash. It allows Berserk out of the Sideboard and specific answers. It can even fetch a played Accumulated Knowledge, removed with Psychatog. It gives you an veratile card. Have you noticed how many 3-off's this deck plays? This means that most cards can be fetched by Intuition, making him an instant-speed tutor for most cards of your deck, while giving some food to Psychatog.

Mana

1 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
6 Island
3 Ancient Tomb


twenty-two lands for a deck with such a drawingpower is more than enough. Five fetches seems like the normal amount for Psychatog. It is enough for Brainstorm and gives you quite some basic lands to work with. All duals are Islands for Veldalken Shackles and because it's the most important color of the game. The lone swamp is against non-basic hate and if you want to play Duress against a unkown opponent.
The 3 Ancient Tombs come frome Turbo Tog by Bardo. This card is really insane, it allows turn 3 Fact or Fiction, turn 4 Intuition+Accumulated Knowledge and Shackles + activate. The life loss isn't that bad, but due to it, I only play five fetches and no Thoughtseize.

Sideboard

4 Engineered Plague
3 Chalice of the Void

1 Berserk
2 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Ghastly Demise
1 Krosan Grip
2 Extirpate
1 Corpse Dance

four Engineered Plague and three Chalice of the Void are nice permanents in game two and three. Allthough Goblins are on the decline, they are still out there, and it isn´t a nice matchup. Chalice of the Void are great against burn, combo and Thresh. Especially because you can play it at one at turn 1. It might get a a MD slot over Duress, but it means, I can no longer go Cunning Wish -> Berserk.
The wish targets are obvious. Most players with counters let the Cunning Wish resolve and try to counter the wished spell. Extirpate and Krosan Grip punnish them for do so.

Cards not included

Tarmogoyf

Before you start flaming, I'm switching back and forth between this card. If I play it I remove 3 Veldalken Shackles and the lone Opt. I'm not sold on it because I rather play an answer to Goyf, than the monster itself. Veldalken Shackles can normally snatch the Goyf from your opponent giving you more advantage then just dropping a Goyf your self, and stall the board. Ofcourse the creature is brilliant when the opponent doesn't have him.

Most of the time when I played him, I started to change the deck more and more around Goyf and to a Gro-A-Tog list with more cheap cantrips. Allthough this isn't bad, it isn't HulkSmash anymore.

Life from the Loam( with other lands obviously)

Those where in my build for a long time, but I didn´t use them alot. It is a nice engine but very very very slow. I really hate the sorcery speed of Life from the Loam too.

Merchant Scroll

Not really need explaining. The card is rather bad in Legacy.

Well the list would be like this than

Hulk Smash
By Benie Bederios

1 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
6 Island
3 Ancient Tomb

3 Psychatog

4 Force of Will
3 Fact or Fiction
1 Opt*
3 Cunning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Accumulated Knowledge
3 Intuition
3 Duress
4 Counterspell
3 Veldalken Shackles*

Sideboard
4 Engineered Plague
3 Chalice of the Void

1 Berserk
2 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Smother
1 Krosan Grip
2 Extirpate
1 Corpse Dance

(* can be Tarmogoyf)

[Pinder]

Tog is cute.

Tarmogoyf is butt ugly.

So is Cephalid Illusionist.

Also, Goyf and Illusionist don't have awesome nicknames like 'Dr. Teeth'.

[Maveric78f]

Hulk Smash
By Benie Bederios

1 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
6 Island
3 Ancient Tomb

3 Psychatog

4 Force of Will
3 Fact or Fiction
1 Opt*
3 Cunning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Accumulated Knowledge
3 Intuition
3 Duress
4 Counterspell
3 Veldalken Shackles*

Sideboard
4 Engineered Plague
3 Chalice of the Void

1 Berserk
2 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Smother
1 Krosan Grip
2 Extirpate
1 Corpse Dance

My main about this list would be that you have only 1 relevant target for intuition. I always refuse to intuition for a solution, psycha or deed for instance, because it means that you empty your deck of a relevant answer. I am also afraid of playing intuition on 3* the same card against any deck packing black because extirpate is more and more relevant in the metagame. To take the example of AK, it means that you will be forced to play it only with 5 mana open, or you expose yourself to extirpate. You don't have this kind of problems with the LftL. If he wants to extirpate your LftL, he obviously can but it's quite a suboptimal play.

I like the fact that you play ancient tomb and vedalken shackles but I think that you'll face some difficulties to control tarmogoyfs.

And I don't like Duress.

[Bardo]

Ah, Monsieur Tog. I've actually spent the last week tweaking various builds involving Psychatog:

Counter-Top Tog
Turbo-Chalice Tog
Trinket Tog
Loam Tog

I've spent the last couple of days writing an article about my efforts, though I have no idea what to do with the thing. MTGS? Anyway, one thing that isn't in my article is my "casual" Tog deck. This is what I play "for fun" (against friends that aren't playing ultra-competitive net-decks):

BardoTog
by moi

4 Accumulated Knowledge
4 Brainstorm
3 Intuition
2 Cunning Wish
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Life from the Loam

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell

3 Pernicious Deed
2 Vedalken Shackles
2 Smother

1 Isochron Scepter

3 Psychatog
1 Genesis

4 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Lonely Sandbar
5 Island
1 Swamp
1 Wasteland
1 Mishra's Factory (Winter)

Sideboard
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Thoughtseize / Duress
1 Haunting Echoes

Wish-Board
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Shallow Grave
1 Misdirection
1 Hydroblast
1 Naturalize
1 Extirpate
1 Berserk

This deck mauls shitty decks; though I suppose most good decks do... Anyway, I wouldn't take this to a tournament, but it's really the kind of thing that rewards tight play.

Of my more competitive efforts, I've been testing this in the last couple of days:

Legacy Counter-Top Tarmo-Tog
by Bardo

4 Brainstorm
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Thirst for Knowledge

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Counterbalance
2 Spell Snare

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Psychatog
3 Dark Confidant

3 Engineered Explosives
2 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Chrome Mox

4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Lonely Sandbar
4 Island
1 Swamp
1 Academy Ruins

I'm still working out the sideboard, and if this is really worth pursuing, but it's been pounding the hell out of my homegrown Gruul and Angel Stompy decks.

[Maveric78f]

At a first glance, I would say that the competitive deck is the first... Dark confidant is clearly a possible inclusion of Tog but I really don't believe in counterbalance, top or chrome mox that are contrary to the primary strategy.

I finally admitted that crime/punishment was not as good as EE in most cases, and I went to this list :

// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [U] Tropical Island
3 [R] Underground Sea
1 [TE] Wasteland
1 [DIS] Breeding Pool
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
2 [ON] Lonely Sandbar
1 [P3] Swamp (2)
1 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [B] Island (2)
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins

// Creatures
2 [OD] Psychatog
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
1 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [TE] Intuition
1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [TE] Counterspell
3 [JU] Cunning Wish
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [IN] Fact or Fiction
4 [IA] Brainstorm
3 [FD] Vedalken Shackles

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ON] Smother
SB: 1 [TE] Diabolic Edict
SB: 1 [IN] Fact or Fiction
SB: 1 [CHK] Hideous Laughter
SB: 1 [NE] Dominate
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 4 [SC] Stifle
SB: 1 [U] Berserk
SB: 1 [TSP] Krosan Grip

I like to have the psycha clock in order to make panic my opponent (I have seen double plague on him), but I don't like to build all my strategy on it as it is too much dependant on every hate a deck can have (stifle, creature removal, grave hate, bounces, ...) and I am often supposed to throw all my hand in order to make it lethal.

[Citrus-God]

Most credit due to Atwa, so just building good tog builds. I had to build my list last night.

// ICBE Dredge-a-Tog
// Lands 27
2 Lonely Sandbar
1 Barren Moor
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Maze of Ith
3 Nantuko Monastery
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Bayou
1 Swamp
2 Island


// Creatures 5
3 Psychatog
1 Wonder
1 Genesis


// Spells 29
4 Brainstorm
4 Intuition
1 Life from the Loam
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Cunning Wish
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Pernicious Deed


// Sideboard 15
1 Misdirection
1 Corpse Dance
1 Gifts Ungiven/Mystical Tutor
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Tsabo's Decree
1 Berserk
1 Hideous Laughter
1 Echoing Truth
1 Extirpate
1 Krosan Grip
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Engineered Plague


I love Monastery in this deck. It gives this deck a way to get around Extirpate, and bash face. Unlike Goyfs, I believe that Monasteries are better when it comes to coming back at a cheaper price.

Maze of Ith is awesome, esp. against Breakfast.

The deck is light on Draw. This deck must rely on Intuition to set up the draw engine. This is why Misdirection is in the SB, to help out Counter wars.

Swords may screw up Tog math, but that's why Monasteries are for. I mean, flying Monasteries is just badass.

[Mister Agent]

Most credit due to Atwa, so just building good tog builds. I had to build my list last night.

// ICBE Dredge-a-Tog
// Lands 27
2 Lonely Sandbar
1 Barren Moor
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Maze of Ith
3 Nantuko Monastery
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Bayou
1 Swamp
2 Island


// Creatures 5
3 Psychatog
1 Wonder
1 Genesis


// Spells 29
4 Brainstorm
4 Intuition
1 Life from the Loam
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Cunning Wish
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Pernicious Deed


// Sideboard 15
1 Misdirection
1 Corpse Dance
1 Gifts Ungiven/Mystical Tutor
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Tsabo's Decree
1 Berserk
1 Hideous Laughter
1 Echoing Truth
1 Extirpate
1 Krosan Grip
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Engineered Plague


I love Monastery in this deck. It gives this deck a way to get around Extirpate, and bash face. Unlike Goyfs, I believe that Monasteries are better when it comes to coming back at a cheaper price.

Maze of Ith is awesome, esp. against Breakfast.

The deck is light on Draw. This deck must rely on Intuition to set up the draw engine. This is why Misdirection is in the SB, to help out Counter wars.

Swords may screw up Tog math, but that's why Monasteries are for. I mean, flying Monasteries is just badass.

Pretty nice list you got there anti-american. I particularly like how it has a awesome mid to late game while it probably has a a fairly decent early game against threshold and other aggro-control decks. I think it would pretty awesome to fit meddling mage and/or gaddock teeg to combat iggy, TES, and belcher as well. Just some thoughts though.

[Citrus-God]

Pretty nice list you got there anti-american. I particularly like how it has a awesome mid to late game while it probably has a a fairly decent early game against threshold and other aggro-control decks. I think it would pretty awesome to fit meddling mage and/or gaddock teeg to combat iggy, TES, and belcher as well. Just some thoughts though.

Thanks. I built the deck when my teammate Alec, was like, "you should build Dredge-a-Tog again."

With that in mind, I took in old list, and pulled a BHWW and shoved in 3 Tundras, 4 Swords, and 2 Monasteries. Well worth the small sacrifices.