[Deck] RGB Survival Advantage (current builds)

[from Cairo]

To be honest at this point Red just offers so little, I really question whether it warrants the splash, Anger and FTK... FTK is so mediocre right now, Shriekmaw + Big Game Hunter + Bone Shredder just seem much more solid. And while Anger is good, without must tap creatures like Goblin Welder or Tradewind Rider, it seems less necessary.

I'm leaning hard towards G/B/w or G/B/u, especially with Gadden Teeg, Shreikmaw and the "neo-Duress" all coming out.

[Anarky87]

To be honest at this point Red just offers so little, I really question whether it warrants the splash, Anger and FTK... FTK is so mediocre right now, Shriekmaw + Big Game Hunter + Bone Shredder just seem much more solid. And while Anger is good, without must tap creatures like Goblin Welder or Tradewind Rider, it seems less necessary.

I'm leaning hard towards G/B/w or G/B/u, especially with Gadden Teeg, Shreikmaw and the "neo-Duress" all coming out.

I agree, GBw is about to get all the goods from Lorwyn. Maybe I don't mind the slowness of GBw, I actually find it rather fun, but then I've just switched over to it from Landstill. Which is like saying, "I need to take a break from strangling babies."

But to actually make a legit post, red does offer very little right now outside of Wish, Anger, and FtK, all of which are pretty weak compared with what you could be playing in Shriekmaw, Shredder, StP, etc. Good job on the finish though.

[bigbear102]

Ok, here's the list that I got 3-0-2 with yesterday. I went 3-0, drew in, and lost to Dave Price in the mirror match in top 8. Here's the list:

4x Taiga
3x Bayou
3x Savannah
4x Forest
3x Wooded Foothills
3x Windswept Heath

4x Survival
4x STP
4x Cabal Therapy

4x Birds
1x Rofellos
1x Quirion Ranger
1x Squee
1x Genesis
1x Anger
1x Viridian Zealot (edited)
1x Tin-street Hooligan
3x MOGG FANATIC
3x Nimble Mongoose
4x Tarmogoyf
1x Loxodon Hierarch
1x Flametongue Kavu
1x Boneshredder
1x BIG GAME HUNTER!!!
1x Razormane Masticore
1x Yixlid Jailer (never played anything where it was relevant)
2x Eternal Witness

SB:
3x Duress
4x Leyline (should be Crypt)
2x Grip
3x Engineered Plague
2x Yixlid Jailer
1x Magus of the Moon

I really like Big Game Hunter and Mogg Fanatic in here. Big Game Hunter is definitely a staple in my lists from here on out. He survivals into play and kills a man, he also acts as a pseudo Rootwalla early game. Fanatic is really nice as a cheap removal creature, and can totally wreck goblins.

I played :

Goblins-2-1
Blue Skies- 2-1
Goblins- 2-1
Draw
Draw
Survival (top 8) 1-2

[from Cairo]

Fanatic is definitely nuts versus Goblins and gy Combo. I wish another color offered something remotely similar, because he's really the only appealing thing outside of a couple 1-ofs that would incline me to stay with Red.

@ Bigbear

Were Quirion Ranger and Viridian Shaman at all good?

You don't really have any tap effects that would make me think to include Quirion Ranger, obv with Rofelloes + Masticore or Tradewind Rider or Goblin Welder she's insane, but on her own she seems very underwhelming.

Viridian Shaman just doesn't seem worth it if you have Tin-Street already. I would think Harmonic Sliver would be alot better.

Also Yixlid seems like a lot better SB card, since its so situational. It's good against any Graveyard decks, but generally they will have gone off by the time you get Survival into play, and fetch Yixlid and cast him. Also he's horrible synergy with the MD, shutting off Squee, Anger and Genesis- so you really never want to cast him as 'a random dood' to just swing with (like you can get away with doing with say Tin-Street or Anger or something). When working on the deck I ran 3 Boarded with the idea that you would board out the 3 gy cards for them and bank on getting him into play quick for the win. With 3-4 in the board you get a pretty good chance of open handing him and dropping it before they go off.

[bigbear102]

Ok, first of all the Viridian Shaman was supposed to say Viridian Zealot. I always play Zealot over other enchantment removal. I like being able to sac and re-use my removal spells. He didn't do much today, but he is definitely worth the slot in my opinion.

Quirion Ranger is not a utility creature, he's a mana critter. I only play 20 land, and having him around makes it like I play 22. He untaps birds and gets my land drop for the turn if I didn't make a real one. He also makes Rofellos go nuts. She's always close to the chopping block when I add something, but right now I really like her. She's also handy at untapping so I have a blocker, something not a lot of people think of.

Jailer was very underwhelming, and something that will not stay in the MD. I thought there would be a lot more GY combo there, but it was just one lonely breakfast deck, which I didn't even play.

I still think that red has a very important role in the deck. I played a 1-of FTK, and still wanted more of him. Sure, he doesn't eat Goyf, but he does eat everything else. Anger is also too important I believe. If only in the control matchups. He lets you avoid mass removal so well. You just keep dropping threats that beat, and you don't care if they die, as long as they get those few points in beforehand. Without haste landstill matches would be much harder.

[from Cairo]

Viridian Zealot makes more sense. If playing Black and White in Survival though I still think I would lean toward the Sliver, especially with the duo Harmonic Sliver and Necrotic "Vindicate" Sliver (was mentioned in the archtype thread, I think Tao or Taco brought it up it was in one of the control lists they were brainstorming), they cover pretty much all the utility removal you would need and have synergy both together and with Genesis.

For Ranger I didn't really see a huge problem with it, it just seems like its a card thats not good on its own, and is mediocre when you don't have something busted to do with Rofellosing a ton of mana. It does have good synergy with Birds though, and can be strong against Wasteland, and making your land drops work more for you. It's not a bad slot, just was wondering whether you found it helping much. It seems very auto include in some configurations (when running it to double tap effects) and much less so in others.

[Solpugid]

I don't understand the harmonic sliver over viridian zealot arguement.

Zealot does his thing for one more mana, and doesn't stick around afterwords, but is a much better beater for if you draw it and just need a creature, and won't randomly kill your own survival. And, as mentioned, it gives you a built-in way of reusing it.

[Maveric78f]

I'm not an expert of survival, but harmonic deals with CotV@2 and has more chance to evade counterbalance. It's also pithing needle proof and 1 mana less.

[Swing4Five]

How important have you found white to be in your matchups?
I had been thinking about it, but adding in color number four makes me scared of wastelands, and kills Tribe Elder recursion.

[bigbear102]

The only reason to play white for me is STP. Hierarch is a nice bonus, but STP is the reason. It gives you 4 more outs to Lackey (less important now), and stops Breakfast and some versions of Ichorid from stomping you. It is also really good in any aggro matchup, which oddly seems to be the majority of matches I see at large tournaments now. And when 4 of the top 8 slots at the last tourney I went to were survival, having stp is nice.

Another reason I run Ranger, to protect all the duals I throw out there. I only play 4 basics, so playing around Waste is crucial.

@chalice and counterbalance: Chalice is not seen that often anymore, at least not at 2. If it comes back, I'll start running Keldon Vandals again. Counterbalance can be a problem I guess, but Boneshredder kills everything but mongeese in gro, and I play my own geese, with genesis and 2 witness. Counterbalance is hard to beat when they get top and balance by turn 3, but that is hard to do, and I can still win even if they get it, because they haen't been achieving threshold and/or playing threats.

I guess those 2 cards don't scare me mainly because of the decks they would be played in. Survival has a good match against gro and other aggro-control decks in general, even without survival in play.

[AngryTroll]

White offers Swords to Plowshares and Loxodon Heirarch, while
Red offers Burning Wish, Anger, and Flame Tongue Kavu.

Running straight Black Green strengthens the manabase, and something like Dark Confidant can be squeezed into those four color spots.

Is Swords to Plowshares really worth the White splash over Red? Between Bone Shredder, Flame Tongue Kavu, and Burning Wish, doesn't Red offer enough removal? It can be argued that black alone offers enough removal, but I want either FtK or StP around to off creatures like Dark Confidant and Disciple of the Vault.

Baloth is not as good as Loxodon Heirarch, but it does recur more easily with Genesis, and the matches that are significantly different between the two seem few and far between (burn?).

Burning Wish is amazing in some matchups, like Angel Stompy, Meathooks, Landstill, and the mirror; and it is certainly not dead against Thresh (Deathmark) and Combo (Cabal Therapy), although it is rather slow; against Ichorid, it can fetch Pyroclasm to kill one of your creatures and wipe out Zombie tokens.

Mogg Fanatic is also particularly strong against Ichorid, for the record, and again is a red card.

Swords to Plowshares does stop Goblin Lackey cold, but the Treefolk Harbringer is an interesting option against Lackey. While putting a land on top of the deck is not always a great plan, it is not often a bad plan either. Especially in the mid to late game, I find myself wanting to draw land to increase my options during a turn.

Overall, I am not convinced that splashing White is a necessary advancement to the deck. The benefits are neat, and worth looking into, but I believe that Red still offers enough to hold its own.

I am sure someone will suggest replacing Cabal Therapy with the new Llorowyn Duress, but I think Therapy is strictly better because of the high number of creatures we play.

[Phantom]

Don't forget about Doran, which is a solid addition to WGB.

Edit: Also, I'm not that familiar with Survival, but wouldn't it want to run Teeg?

[AngryTroll]

Doran and Teeg are two excellent reasons to run white; you are correct. I was looking at the lists posted recently and not seeing much reason to run white.

Especially with Treefolk Harbringer, who also certainly deserves testing, Doran looks sexy. On the other hand...he gives Goyf +1/+0, give the untested Harbringer +3/+0....is a dumb beater going to make the cut in a deck that is tight on slots for dumb beaters, and already running 4 Goyfs? Quite possibly, but by no means automatically.

[Swing4Five]

bigbear, have you put much thought into updating your list for post-Lorwyn?

At a minumum it seems Shriekmaw should replace Bone Shredder.

Thoughtseize looks as if it might also make a nice addition, as it can equally disrupt combo or premptively send a beater to the bin. Thoughtseize might even be able to move in on StP's role, though it doesn't stop a lackey on the play.

Gaddock Teeg in an influence for keeping a white presence. The question is more where to put him. Either stock the maindeck with a full force of Kithkin Advisors in order to windmill slam him down asap, or have him waiting in the wings of the sideboard (with a possible single maindeck tutor target), bring the contingent in vs combo, control and/or aggro-control and then windmill slam him down.
Or is he completely unnessecary?

The last card that caught my eye as a possible inclusion was Masked Admirers.

Masked Admirers 2GG
Creature - Elf Shaman
When Masked Admirers comes into play, draw a card.
Whenever you play a creature spell you may pay GG. If you do, return Masked Admirers from your graveyard to your hand.
2/2

Probably too expensive for it's effect but it seems worth considering. Has a nice trick in using his ability while evoking a Shriekmaw.

Doran seems cute, trading 'goyfs is a better proposition for the deck that can recur them, and he completely hoses Piledrivers.
Warrants consideration, but I doubt he makes the cut.
He won't be taking an efficient beater slot from 'goyf or 'goose, and his manacost could sometimes prove prohibitive.

[Mulletus]

To be honest at this point Red just offers so little, I really question whether it warrants the splash, Anger and FTK... FTK is so mediocre right now, Shriekmaw + Big Game Hunter + Bone Shredder just seem much more solid. And while Anger is good, without must tap creatures like Goblin Welder or Tradewind Rider, it seems less necessary.

What about must block creatures? Like Mongoose? How many Big Game Hunters and Bone Shredders does it take to block a Goose with Thresh? FTK is as must have because of it's power. I too have added the BGH, and it saved me from a Goyf. The problem is I would have never gotten him out without the haste that red gives me. The more Green-black this gets... the better off you are playing The Rock.

[MindTwiZt]

I'm not sure about Shriekmaw. In my current 4color build, I would prefer Bone Shredder because of Dark Confidant, and it can be used for flashbacking Therpay (or at least as a chumper).
Gaddock Teeg seems like an auto-include for this deck, since it doesn't affect our deck and shuts down most combo-finishers, cards like FoF, Wrath/Damnation, Geddon or Smokestacks.
I have been thinking about Burning Wish/Glittering Wish, too, but I'm unsure if its good in my tempo-oriented build, since it will take me 2 turns to use it. But on the other side, it would increase the flexibility of the deck.
Some random thoughts about the wishboards:

Burning Wish Toolbox
-- Pyroclasm
-- Crime / Punishment
-- Hull Breach
-- Duress
-- Vindicate
-- Damnation
-- Earthquake
-- Haunting Echoes

Glittering Wish Toolbox
-- Crime / Punishment
-- Pernicious Deed
-- Hull Breach
-- Savage Twister
-- Grave-Shell Scarab
-- Loxodon Hierarch
-- Harmonic Sliver
-- Vindicate
-- Necrotic Sliver

Some other thoughts about some additional creatures for the board:

Magus of the Moon: It might sound absurd included him, but we mostly run enough basics to play around him, and decks like Threshold, Landstill and others are significantly slowed down with him, and some Combo-Decks (TES, Iggy-Pop, Ichorid or Breakfast) will mostly be unable to handle him fast enough.
Grave-Shell Scarab: A powerful, self-recurring threat. He's very good in most control-matchups, since he can only be extirpated.
Avalance Riders: just a thought, recurring LD may be ok, but it seems to slow.

[bigbear102]

I haven't yet built anything post-lorwyn, as its legality is over a month away, and I'm busy planning my tourney and going to school.

I will probably be playing Shriekmaw, Doran, and Teeg though. Doran makes your BoP's 1/1 flyers. This can actually be relevent in a lot of matches. Teeg makes most other decks worse while not affecting yours. I see no reason not to run 1 MD and a couple more in the board. Testing will obviously have to be done to see what works. Thoughtseize is an interesting card, but needs to be tested thoroughly. Currently I have 12 non-creature cards in the deck- Survival, Therapy, and STP. Seize might be added, but I dunno, it isn't any better than the duresses in the board because they come in against combo and control. I don't think it's any better than Therapy, cuz I play 29 creatures. Again, something to be tested.

Once I start testing Lorwyn, red is going to be experimented for the drop, but it's not very likely. I agree with Mulletus that it is just too important. I am also really liking the Fanatics that I recently added.

StP is a personal favorite of mine. Once I started playing with it I fell in love. I can't see myself cutting it any time in the near future. It just deals with too much. It gives you outs against randomness like reanimator and extra outs against breakfast and the mirror.

[Swing4Five]

I can't see myself ever dropping red if only for Mogg Fantastic. I had been trying a list without anger on the principle of trying to keep the count of cards that are useless (or close enough to it) without Survival to a minimum, but almost every game it seems I have some point where I'm looking at my creature configuration and thinking "if I could get Anger I could do this...." So he's coming off the bench and getting back in the game.

I guess I'm going to suck it up and go 4 color for StP (and replace my Spike Feeder with the Elephant I suppose). I had been hurting for outs agianst turn 2 and 3 hasty Dread Returned monstrosities and random recurring creature effects.

Buying Savannah's if I bring this to a in person tournament.... ugh.

Edit: I forgot to ask earlier, could you give your thoughts on Razormane?

[Goaswerfraiejen]

I just played against a cool version with Duplicants (and Welders and Sundering Titans). It looked like it had great potential, despite some obvious weaknesses (the graveyard, for one--still, it looked solid). Perhaps there's some food for thought there.

[Swing4Five]

I just played against a cool version with Duplicants (and Welders and Sundering Titans). It looked like it had great potential, despite some obvious weaknesses (the graveyard, for one--still, it looked solid). Perhaps there's some food for thought there.

You faced Welder Survival, threads here.
http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6435