Mono Black (post Lorwyn):
4 Thoughtseize
4 Duress
4 Hymn
4 Dark Ritual
4 Snuff Out
4 Dark Confidant
4 Oona's Prowler
3 Hypnotic Specter
3 Nantuko Shade
3 Jitte
3 Chrome Mox
4 Wasteland
16 Swamp
SB:
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Engineered Plague
4 Dystopia
3 Pithing Needle
I want to make a more robust post later, but for now I wanted to point out that the advent of Thoughtseize will at least fix the problem quoted above.Originally Posted by FakeSpam
Interesting list Sigar. I am not sure Oona's Prowlers belong but who knows. It felt refreshing seeing a new creature in someone's legion of doom at the very least. With all the discard, maybe the opp would take the 3 dmg in the face but it lets the opponent choose and not you. That is usually bad.
Anyway, I am not so sure its time to totally reinvent Sui Black yet. I think the best splashes and changes are those which are the most simple. This deck is pretty powerful and justs needs something to push it over the top. I think Sui White looks the best so far, due to its simplicity in just adding STP and Grunt. STP answered the Black's problem of having removal that is either limited in its scope or too costly. Grunt answers this decks worst match (Ichorid), and legacy's premier aggro control deck Thresh. Those two cards I think are all thats needed to change things. Green can answer the creature problem, but not the removal. Red can provide much needed reach, removal that lost much of its effectiveness due to Tarm, and does not help with the creatures at all. So, basically you would have to attempt a 3 color build or just play a simple tweak found in the white version.
Still, can anyone weigh the significance of having a non-wasteable mana base? I mean, could you quantify in any way how much that increases a deck's viability in the current meta? I am very curious about this, because that is the only thing a mono deck has over splashes these days.
Last edited by LordEvilTeaCup; 10-03-2007 at 12:36 AM.
I cannot agree with this statement any more. The white splash does improve the deck where it is needed the most. If you plan to play this deck then you should try the white splash if you want to make you deck better. The white splash gives the deck the tools i needs to compete in the metagame.
Oh and sigar, i dont think oona's prowler is a bad card to run. I would take them out for negators or zombies.
Call me Ishmael
Not the only thing... just one of the most important. I also choose to stay monoblack for other reasons as well. Two the come into mind immediately are: 1) For the added consistency of never being color-screwed; 2) For the increased probability of having a hand which can better abuse your acceleration, Dark Ritual and Chrome Mox.Still, can anyone weigh the significance of having a non-wasteable mana base? I mean, could you quantify in any way how much that increases a deck's viability in the current meta? I am very curious about this, because that is the only thing a mono deck has over splashes these days.
There are lots of other minor reasons, but again they are rarely considered. For instance, the additional life loss from fetches; or negating any hate directed at another color and it's best cards.
@Fakespam: As an aside, the suicide archtype hasn't been "suicide" since Hatred basically became un-usable. A small quibble, who cares... we all understand what you're saying. I think I disagree with your assessment that the deck needs to be re-invented. Personally I think it just needs to be refined and run by good players. The current meta is much better for suicide black then when Goblins was prominent. Red decks like to rain all hell on black-aggro.
My opinion regarding your points and the current meta: black has more answers to Tarmogoyf that most colors. Red took a serious hit here. Thoughtseize gave black another combo hate tool, add it to Duress and there are very few decks with a better all around combo match-up then sui-black. Finally, are Daze and Spell Snare really important considerations? Yes Threshold is probably the most prevalent and likely best deck out there, but are these two spells really the ones that hamper suicide black? If they are consistently stopping your broken starts then I might suggest its player error. You're rarely going to see first turn Hyppie or Negator out of me. More likely I'll Duress or Thoughseize (I run both) to see what they have, and insure that my second turn Hyppie or Negator aren't going to meet any problems. Blindly playing creatures when there are too few for comfort in suicide black is foolish. If they Daze a duress... fine, I probably would have grabbed it anyways.
@ Techno - I still don't understand why Carnophage. I would think Sarcomancy is a better for previously stated reasons. I would probably even consider Isamaru, Savannah Lions, Mother of Runes, or even possibly Icatian Javelineers (got to love them) over Carnophage. It puts a little more stress on the white-splash, but how many times are you lacking for turn 1 plains, or you need the Carnophage so you won't take manaburn off of Dark Ritual. Mother of Runes in particular looks like it could do a great deal for the deck. Protected Negator...?! Hot. It adds some real late game power the deck can struggle might struggle with.
@ Sigar - I'm with Techno... scratch Oona's for Negators. If your skeptical, test it out and you'll quickly find why every build runs them. Simply put they'll win you more games than they'll lose. Out of curiosity, the rest of your list I think is really solid, so why did you opt for Oona's? Otherwise I would just assume you were some noob.
@ Ataxrxes - Smother and Terror are fairly comparable. Basically Smother covers more important creatures than Terror does. I actually haven't layed it out and counted, but I think that's the general consensus. Snuff Out versus Smother is a seperate debate. To try to summarize it, most people choose Snuff Out because removal is more important in the early stages for this deck, and Snuff Out doesn't cost you tempo where Smother will. Also, in the early stages of the game life loss is of less consequence, so the price is negligible and will likely be gained back from the removal of a key creature.
@ GiantGrowth - I think bob is a bit more accepted than he previously was. If I had to speculate why this is, I would guess that it's because sui-black has taken a bit more or an aggro-control route and focused less on the quick beatdown that it had previously. More than anything, I believe it depends on your build, even then there would be alot of disagreement on what justifies his inclusion. For instance I'm quite surprised anybody running all 8 1cc zombies is including him!?! Shouldn't that build focus more on early beats and tempo, and be even more concerned about the life loss?
Oona's Prowler carries a Jitte just fine, and 3 on the head a turn for 2 mana is just great. Yes he can discard a card to prevent that, but that's kind of the whole strategy, to rape his entire hand. Win/win situation!
Negator is crap in my meta. Call me noob if you want to, but test the Prowler first!
I really like the Prowler, I think it will be a great addition to Sui black. I would run it over Giant before I dropped the Negator though. Neg. can be a first turn house, if your meta game does not allow you to play Neg. then you might want to think about playing a diffrent deck.
Team Fat Man & Little Boy
Negator is not the heart and soul of Sui Black; discard spells are. Without them, the deck would just be a bunch of creatures trying to beat Gro decks (not gonna happen), and a bye to combo players.
And discard spells aren't going to win the game by themselves either. The reason Suicide Black works is because it utilizes disruption followed by massive beats to keep the opponent off balance. Phyrexian Negator may not be the definative Suicide Black creature, but it's damn well as close as we have right now. Negator is a powerhouse in this deck and he is well worth the price tag that comes along with his huge body.
Mother of Runes too me seems the most interesting out of those. I think Sarcomancy> Lions, Isamaru, and Carno without a doubt. However, between Mom and Sarco there exists more debate. It will probably come down to how effective the Goblins will be post-Lorwyn. Mom is really only a good turn one answer to lackey if you go first. Hmmm, then again wouldn't a chump block from Mom be a fair trade too against Lackey? Anyway, I like Mom better overall due to her overall usefulness. She is effective mid and late game, and I don't think you would sacrifice all that much tempo either. Unless you get a jitte online really early, the sarc is not going to be causing a big enough tempo swing to worry about replacing him. I say Mom should be tested.
Mom is an aggro-control card. It neither pressures or disrupts the opponent, unless you stick a Jitte on it.
If you put Mom in Suicide Black, you start caring about protecting your threats, and the deck will eventually evolve into B/W Aggro-control weenies, probably playing things like Spectral Lynx. This isn't a bad thing per se, but you should choose what deck design guidelines to stick to.
YOU'RE GIVING ME A TIME MACHINE IN ORDER TO TREAT MY SLEEP DISORDER.
Hmmm, I am a bit confused by this statement. This deck is an aggro-control deck, so wouldn't an aggro-control card fit with the scheme? I am just asking for clarification, because I think this is just a mere mistype. Anyway, although I am not sure that Mom would work out, I don't think any other change would have to be made to include her. In this case, we are just looking for the best 1cc creature in this deck. She is not meant to be the backbone and this wouldn't necessarily mean we would be over concerned about protecting threats, but rather maybe she would have solid synergy and help the already existing game plan. The real basic question here is, would replacing the 1cc zombie slot with Mom improve the deck? I think she could, even if it is just to add some evasion to your beats and stop a STP or bolt from hitting your threats.
Yes, Mother of Runes is excellent--plus, she blocks Tarmogoyf like there's no tomorrow. I believe that Nihil's point is merely that, once you splash white for her, so many new avenues are opened up for the deck that it really stops being SuiBlack. While that's not necessarily a bad thing, as he says, it is a different deck. Kind of like how splashing red for burn is a different deck, now.
Suicide Black is more AGGRO control than it is aggro CONTROL. Mom's are more aggro CONTROL, imho if you want to play b/w aggro CONTROL then play bw confidant. I think it's a solid deck in this metagame cause of the LD/stp/discard it presents. StP > tarmogoyf.
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I think I understand where you are coming from, but I just don't think replacing Carnophage with Mom will lead this deck down a different road. The only concern I see is getting the mana for it first turn and that will probably not be a big deal.
Carnophage is a 2/2 with a drawback. He is great in the first turn and second turn maybe. You might get to swing with him once. Of course this changes if you get him to carry a jitte very early, but we all know that doesn't happen that often. Then well... he is a chump blocker. The inclusion of Carno/Sarco was more for mana curve purposes and a solid first turn play. Mom helps both. Speaking of tempo, I think I would rather turn 3 swing with an unblockable Gator (now with no drawback) or Grunt. Gator and Grunt are your beat sticks. Bob and Shade are card advantage, and the other slot I think could easily go to Mom. She helps the already existing game plan, and is pretty much good very early mid and onward. Yeah, maybe turn 1 and 2 the other options will be better and that is maybe. Even turn 2 Mom could be ridiculous, because you will feel a whole lot better dropping your ritualed out Hyppie or Gator turn 2. I am going in circles, but any tempo you may have lost is gained back and then some turn 3.
Mom may not be the correct choice, but I just don't feel the examples provided to be striking enough.
In regards to mother
Verdict: No
Carnophage is not only a great turn 1 play but he is also one of the only ways to eat up that extra mana from rit. This is a big deal because when i was trying my list without him, way to often i would use 2 of my mana and taking 1 burn. When you have a zombie to cast alongside bob or disruption piece you would be suprised how much better off you are. Mom is realy superflous in this deck, because most of the time you dont realy care if your opponent is blocking your creatures. Id rather have a 2/2 zombie then a unblockable gator, because either way the game is gonna end soon. Im not saying that it shouldnt be tested, but mom kind of puts stress on the white splash making rit weaker and most of the time it is not nessescary. The only real blocker that this deck will ever realy take notice of is goyf and that is taken care of by stp and grunt.
Call me Ishmael
This does indeed fit in the realm of striking examples. However, why Carnophage over Sarcomancy? Sarco is not as good in Sui White as he is in Sui Black, but he still provides some advantages. He functions as more than just a mere 2/2. He feeds the Gator as well and also very important in this build, he will most likely cost you less life. I think this outweighs pumping up the goyf when the enchantment is tossed in the yard.
About Sui's mana base, I have been running 16 swamps and 4 Wastelands. Is 16 enough swamps, and if not should I up the swamps or diminish the amount of wastelands? In testing, I think I am starting to agree with only 3 wastelands although I think its a tough decision. Also, LD in general is starting to get more and more controversial. The discard archetype maybe be making a comeback and some people are taking more discard over LD. I think we should have a comprehensive discussion about it, to reaffirm where we are heading with this deck.
@ Lord - I have two suiblack decks. One that uses only discard, and one that includes discard and land destruction.
Discard became a little stronger when it picked up Thoughtseize, and many people have said that land destruction is getting weaker. I'm of mixed opinion regarding that claim. Threshold is ever more present and I really value land destruction in that matchup. So much in fact that I sideboard 2x Smallpox to compliment my full sets of Sinkholes and Wastelands in what I consider my better suiblack list. Ten land destruction effects can be pretty brutal for decks running three colors.
However, I'm quite positive the choice to run more or less land destruction is reliant on your creature base and the amount of acceleration you play (i.e. pretty much the rest of your deck). In the deck that does run land destruction, I have both Dark Ritual and Chrome Mox so I can lay down either a first turn Sinkhole, or a large beater followed by a sinkhole to buy myself time to beat. In that same build I don't run any of the 1cc zombies. Laying a zombie down first and then buying a turn to beat with a land destruction effect nets you very little advantage. If you cast the 1cc zombies after your land destruction effect(s)... they're pretty supoptimal. Just about any other creature is a better choice, they provide little pressure, have no devastating effect when they connect, etc.
I've written on this topic a bit previously, but I'll try to summarize my position. If you run the 1cc zombies (please run all 8) then there is precious little room and use to run a slew of land destruction effects (which makes them a little less useful) and the ld effects are less effective in combination with the zombies. Instead, maximize your discard effects, maybe even including cabal therapy considering your creature count is higher than in other suiblack builds. With the 1cc zombies you don't need to buy tempo. You instead need to attempt ensuring your early threats stay useful by eliminating the cards in their hand that counter the 1cc zombie pressure you've laid down.
If any of this is unclear, or you just want more detail, let me know and I'll try expouding on these ideas a bit more.
As to your land count. If you're running chrome mox, then I think you're set. Otherwise I'd up it to 17x swamp. A general rule is 17x of a color to ensure two of it on turn two. A rule that's only really important in black and white aggro decks. If you want to play it safe, bump it up to 18x. This isn't including Dark Ritual, which takes a little pressure of this general rule, but really not too much. Even with a ritual opening your more than likely to want double black on turn 2. I highly recommend chrome mix incidentally. Most the builds I've seen running around here could make use of it. I personally run 15x Swamp, 4x Wasteland, 3x Chrome Mox, and 4x Ritual. My curve doesn't include the 1cc zombies, but it does pack 4x Duress and 4x Thoughseize.
I'll prolly post my list later today. I finally maindecked Yixlid Jailor... something I never thought I'd do. On the other hand he replaces Plague Spitter, which everyone thinks I'm crazy to maindeck anyways. Both Plague Spitter and Engineered Plague are now in the board, so I'm very weary at the moment of how well my aggro-matchups will do. Maindecked Plague Spitter just had a bit too much dis-synergy with the rest of the deck. It was alright because I could toss him to chrome mox or small pox. But the inclusion of Thoughtsieze moved Smallpox to my board. So Spitter became less useful.
Wow, very interesting post Galroth. I think you are a radical as far as Sui goes and maybe that is a good thing. I want to see your list before I say anything else, and rest assured I will play test it like no tomorrow and see where the rabbit hole goes.
Well, not so radical I think. I experiment with alot of different stuff though.
The Current List:
15x Swamp
3x Chrome Mox
4x Dark Ritual
4x Wasteland
4x Sinkhole
4x Duress
4x Thoughseize
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Phyrexian Negator
4x Hypnotic Specter
4x Dark Confidant
3x Nantuko Shade
3x Yixlid Jailor
Board:
3x Plague Spitter
4x Engineered Plague
3x Umezawa's Jitte
3x Dystopia
2x Small Pox
I've been trying to find room for Planar Void also, and I would highly recommend it in any meta rampant with graveyard hate. Between Planar Void and Yixlid Jailor. Mine however leans more towards aggro.
As people have pointed out before, I have... 0 removal maindecked. I haven't found it a problem truthfully. If you're on the beatdown with accelerated beats that you power out consistently, then it's rarely needed. Especially considering that Game 1 , if against combo and control, it's either dead or unnecesarry. Against aggro or aggro-control, just play like sui-black plays. Go balls to the wall and stay on the offensive. Game 2 and 3 you've got a slew of removal options for whatever particular deck you're facing.
--
The other variant of suiblack I've toyed with was previously posted here:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...t=3451&page=20
There have been some slight changes which include thoughseize, and cut Order of the Ebon Hand and a Jitte for 3x Swords of Fire and Ice. With Dark Ritual and Lake of the Dead it makes a fantastic turn 3 play. And if you're running lots of small beats you've got to either make them count somehow.
Maybe more later... have to run for the moment.
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