Against UW-Landstill: Phyrexian Furnace (Manland recursion, Dragons), Abeyance, additional Dragons or Decrees like Matth said. Or maybe just IBAs Irish Wombat.
this:
http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showp...&postcount=369
with 3 Krosan Grip instead of Seed Spark. UW cannot beat this.
Honestly, you should probably just play the Mighty Quinn. You have more cards that actually do things, and dropping Humility for Moat, where the former doesn't hit factory and the latter does, seems like a good move. I'm not sure if there's a reason to play Wombat over Quinn anymore. Coldsnap, I guess?Originally Posted by Blaukreuz
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
Necro!
So I have been working with this deck a lot and feel this deck would be great in the meta. It has a strong Thresh MU, kills goblins, but weak combo. So I have been experimenting with a black splash that I like to call Dark Wombat. Now I think the MD is really good, but a splash for the SB would be beneficial.
Dark Wombat
Lands
4 Scrubland
3 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
10 Plains
Creatures
3 Eternal Dragon
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Bandage
4 Orim's Chant
4 Abeyance
2 Disenchant
2 RoP: Red
4 Renewed Faith
4 Wing Shards
4 Wrath of God
3 Decree of Justice
2 ?
SB
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Jotun Grunt
4 Planar Void / Leyline of the Void
3 Duress / Beater
I haven't tested it at all, just throwing around a list. Any Ideas?
so is the black only for SB options?
I just don't think bandage is the kind of card you are looking in today's meta, 1 life plus a cantrip is pretty terrible. Unless the northwest metagame has alot of burn and goblins, I would cut them.
I would consider replacing it with gilded light/dawn charm for more protection against combo/discard, or having some MD use for that black mana.
Also, isn't this deck kind of glacially slow? I think the reason mono-w control has never come back is because it runs too many answers and not enough threats.
I have always found bandage to be a great card. It may have weak effects, but being able to up storm, stop lackey, and draw, is a good card. I feel the black splash should not be overly used and distort the deck. I already do great against aggro-control and aggro. I want to focus on those MUs. The deck is slow like most control decks, but it is not that much slower than Landstill. That is still heavily played.
What I wanted to get out of the black splash is more efficient beaters (Negator) and GY hate (Voids). With the 8 "counters" main and the creatures coming in for a faster clock post board, you have a good shot against storm combo outside of solidarity.
Cut the creatures out of the board, they aren't what this deck needs. Grunt isn't bad cuz he serves double duty, but Negator is just bad with this deck.
You are also not playing Humility, which beats the format right now, especially considering combo now relies on creatures...
I am testing 2 MD Echoes with the black splash. It really helps the long games get shorter.
Bandage goes very will with Echoes, getting a 2for1 cuz it replaces itself.
EPIC Syndicate
-My hero
-I don't think this one was a joke...
First of all, I'd drop those RoP:Reds and replace them with RoP:Greens. Goblins just isn't the metagame force it was anymore and being able to stop a Goyf, Mystic Enforcer, Werebear and the like for a mere White mana is quite good I guess.
-2 RoP: Red
+2 RoP: Green
Also, you really want Humilities which are just a complete beating against everything right now. I'd fill the 2 open slots you have and replace one of the disenchants (that doesn't really have that good targets anymore) to add in 3 Humilities.
-1 Disenchant
-2 Open Slots
+3 Humilities
Also, I'd drop the Renewed Faiths for Heal which is just plain and simply better because it adds more storm (the 1 life shouldn't be an issue).
-4 Renewed Faith
+4 Heal
Then you could also replace the quite narrow Orims Chant with the more versatile Eningeered Explosives (stops Emty tokkens for good).
-1 Disenchant
-1 Orims Chant
+2 Engineered Explosives
The sideboard could then look something like this:
1 Engineered Explosives (Empty the Warrens, *****, Slivers etc)
3 Jotun Grunt (Combo, Ichorid)
2 Tormods Crypt (Ichorid, Iggy Pop)
1 Orims Chant (Combo)
4 Duress (Combo, Control [replacing Chant])
4 Thoughtseize (Combo)
You could also replace the Jotun Grunts with Grinning Demons or Juzam Djins or Plague Slivers but I just like the double duty Grunt fills.
Now with this Sideboard you really want to have a black mana source on the first turn so I'd drop a plains or two for a Godless Shrine which probably is better than another Fetchie because of Stifle.
-1 Plains
+1 Godless Shrine
That definetely looks interesting. The question is what to cut. As it is a wincondition, you really want to cut winconditions but you can't really cut Eternal Dragon because you run quite a small amount of lands (20) and Decree of Justice is just plain uncounterable removal which is always nice.
As this is an extreme lategame card you don't really want to play more than one so I'd probably cut one of the lesser cantrips for it.
-1 Heal
+1 Haunting Echoes
Taking all this into consideration, this is what I'd start testing:
Code:Mainboard (60 cards) 3 Windswept Heath 3 Flooded Strand 9 Plains 1 Godless Shrine 4 Scrubland 3 Eternal Dragon 3 Decree of Justice 1 Haunting Echoes 4 Swords to Plowshares 4 Wing Shards 2 Engineered Explosives 4 Wrath of God 2 Rune of Protection: Green 3 Humility 4 Bandage 4 Heal 4 Abeyance 2 Orim's Chant Sideboard (15 cards) 4 Duress 4 Thoughtseize 2 Orim's Chant 1 Engineered Explosives 2 Tormod's Crypt 2 Jotun Grunt
I don't really know but the ability to cycle away the runes if you don't need them and the lower converted mana cost should be better than dodging Counterbalance (which even isn't played in every built allthough that is a mistake in my opinion).
I prefer Humility. It doesn stop your main wincondition (Decree of Justice), is more efficient at stopping the creatures (Goblins can still ping via Siege-Gang Comander, ******** can still attack with Mystic Enforcer) / suporting your gameplan (overextending into Wrath of God) and stops all those nasty creature Tricks (Enchantress, Survival, Breakfast).
Last edited by diffy; 10-26-2007 at 10:04 AM.
story circle would not be finally better than runes ? And even against Threshold it looks better as 2CC is bad these last days.
I would play Moat over Humility.
Why play runes at all anymore? It was good against goblins because it would make them overextend into wrath/vengeance. Green decks don't overextend. Removal is just better against green. Gro doesn't play too many threats, so once you get rid of them they are gone, and Survival can come back from wrath effects quickly, and can kill runes.
This is the list I have been running, it has been doing alright in testing.
// Lands
19 [R] Plains (3)
3 [A] Scrubland
// Creatures
3 [SC] Eternal Dragon
// Spells
4 [SH] Bandage
2 [PY] Abolish
3 [SC] Decree of Justice
2 [OD] Haunting Echoes
4 [ON] Renewed Faith
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
3 [10E] Wrath of God
4 [SC] Wing Shards
2 [FUT] Intervention Pact
4 [OV] Abeyance
3 [TE] Humility
// Sideboard
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [PS] Orim's Chant
SB: 3 [MR] Rule of Law
SB: 4 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 2 [10E] Condemn
The Intervention Pact is being tested, and seems to be doing alright. It lets you absorb 2 Goyf hits without losing any life, and adds to Wing Shards for free. It also stops Ghoul for a turn, which should be good for this deck.
Abolish is amazing in here. Against storm combo you hit their LED before they wanna use it, and then have Abeyance to own them later. It's also free so people don't ever expect it.
I don't like Heal over Renewed Faith just because it draws you the card later. Sometimes I need answers now and can't wait.
I do want Vengeance back in the list, but Echoes is just better.
EPIC Syndicate
-My hero
-I don't think this one was a joke...
I have been liking creatures against combo. Giving me the ability to disrupt and win fast. I will test though.
The RoP will and should be red. I am not sure if it is needed much anymore, but goblins is still out there. Not sure how many in my meta, so it does need to be tested. I love Abolish and completely forgot that it existed. Been using Disenchants in the deck for so long.
I really like the list, so here is a list I am going to test with some of your choices.
Lands-20
4 Scrubland
2 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
12 Plains
Win-6
3 Eternal Dragon
3 Decree of Justice
Combo Hate-10
4 Orim's Chant
4 Abeyance
2 Extirpate
Creature Hate-14
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Wing Shards
4 Wrath of God
2 Humility
Other Goodies-10
4 Bandage
4 Renewed Faith
2 Abolish
SB
4 Phyrexian Negator
3 Jotun Grunt
2 Extirpate
2 Haunting Echoes
4 Duress
I want to test Intervention Pact because it looks useful and its uses are great. I am testing Extirpate in place of RoP. Depends on how much red though. I would love to add the 3rd Humility, but it costs 4 and 1 Extirpate seems bad. Will test though. Thoughts on the board. Basically after boarding against combo, I have 8 "counters", 4 Discarders, 6 GY hate spells, and 7 Beaters to get the job done faster. I will try out the man plan some more. Thoughts?
4 Chant main seems to be like overkill. It's really only good against combo, Abeyance is usually enough to get around counters and such. I would drop it down for the 3rd Humility, possibly maybe even the Pacts. I like Chant in the board personally.
EPIC Syndicate
-My hero
-I don't think this one was a joke...
Well my meta has a ton of counters, like thresh and slivers, so I find them really useful. They also help against combo. I can see dropping one for another humility.
What would be a good mono white list? I don't plan on buying scrublands for a while and have been having trouble coming up with an okay list and debating a lot of slots. Here is my list right now.
Lands-20
20 Plains
Win-6
3 Eternal Dragon
3 Decree of Justice
Combo Hate-8
4 Orim's Chant
4 Abeyance
Creature Hate-15
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Wing Shards
4 Wrath of God
3 Humility
Other Goodies-11
4 Bandage
4 Renewed Faith
3 Abolish
SB
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Rule of Law
???
I need help with the SB, obviously. Any thoughts? Man plan?
I would add in maybe 2 Akroma's Vengeance. It cycles and wrath's. Also, in the mainboard gilded light might be better than Chant since it can cycle too. The Abolish's probably should just be disenchant, and I don't think 3 mainboard of either abolish or disenchant is necessary.
Humility and Moat may be beatings today but with only 20 lands and no other mana sources, when do you plan to play them ?
I would advocate running Ancient Tomb and City of Traitors to begin with. That means no Wings Shard but Wrath comes at the same time with these lands, so it's not a big deal.
That also makes Rule of Law quicker to reach against combo.
Of course, from there, I'd feel the temptation of drifting towards Stax but that's not a necessity either.
I also think Bandage doesn't do much (I don't think it ever has so much) and I'd much rather dedicate more slots to make sure to hit the 4-mana enchantments and their mana.
I agree with cheddarcaveman here. Akroma's Vengeance is much more versatile in this deck, and against decks where you need disenchant-like effects, Vengeance does the job much better.
Also, Chants should be in the board, as they will be dead in many matchups and we want to reduce the number of dead cards. If you need anti-combo tech, Gilded Light works just as well (even counters abeyance!), plus, it cycles.
I agree with the first part of your post, Puzzle, which is why I run 4 Mind Stone in my Wombat. Mind Stone is great because it helps get that turn 3 Humility or WoG, turns on the Dragon engine faster, makes more soldiers, and it also cantrips; all in one card!
I am opposed tolands in this deck, as they only weaken the manabase. They make the deck vulnerable to wasteland, provide unnecesary damage, (or even worse, losing a land), and don't provide white mana. Wombat can't properly abuse their speed like Stax, because Wombat is a very slow deck, so it can wait another turn to drop a plains.
As to your last point, I dropped Bandage a long time ago, because it was mainly an answer to turn 1 Lackey, which is not what this deck is about, not to mention the decline of goblins from the metagame.
Abolish is in the deck over disenchant because it messes with storm combo. Even when they go off turn 1, if they play LED you can possibly destroy it when they can't sac it. 1 more mana isn't that bad for wombat anyway, as there aren't any huge artifacts or enchantments that wombat needs to get rid of before turn 3 anyway.
As for the mana base, I run 21-22 land, and it is fine. You have a million cyclers, plus dragon. I almost always have the 4 mana I need by turn 4. Dropping Bandage actually reduces your chances of hitting 4 mana, and reduces the chances of Wing Shards being amazing. 1 mana for 1 card and 1 storm is good in this deck.
I never really liked Mindstone, but it isn't bad. I absolutely disagree with Tomb or City though, the mono W version is immune to wastes, and any version cannot handle life loss.
EPIC Syndicate
-My hero
-I don't think this one was a joke...
hi, its my first post here so im sorry if smtng is wrong or my english is too bad.
i want to try monow wombat in our legacy championship in about a month. i think meta will consist of ********, goblins, aggroloam, survival based decks, uw/uwb fishes and random aggrodecks. i dont expect a lot of combo decks and landstills there so mb wombat can be a good choise.
i tested my deck in mws and was confronted with problems against decks like loam and smtng like loam w/o life engine but with top and a lot of shuffle effects. i think there will be some such decks in that tornament so i need ur help. often i can deal with all their threats (only a scarab is a problem for me but abeyance can help to kill him and usually they have only one). but they can deal with all my threats especially if they use white (play stp/extirpate targeting dragon, sac deed/play damnation to kill tokens). and i have 8 winconditions, i see some of u have only 6-7 of them. so we play our creatures to be killed next turn but my deck is thinner and thinner each turn... i even thought to cut smtng to add 1 white beacon. can u give me a better advise?
also i realized that 4c still and all combodecks (esp solidarity) are bad mu`s for me. mb i can have a better sb for these decks if i would suddenly meet them?
here`s my current list im testing now with my small comments:
3 [ON] Secluded Steppe
9 [CHK] Plains
9 [IA] Snow-Covered Plain - i`m satisfied with 18+3 lands but someimes any ld like vindicate in early game can hurt me.
4 [SC] Eternal Dragon
4 [WL] Phyrexian Furnace - to deal with squee and genesis vs survival decks and to make a lot of mu`s easier (********, loam, landstill etc.)
4 [U] Swords to Plowshares
4 [10E] Bandage
4 [SC] Gilded Light - i think this card is very good for this deck cuz it helps against everything we dont like - tendrils (and freeze in theory), discard and also burn.
4 [WL] Abeyance
4 [ON] Renewed Faith
4 [SC] Wing Shards
3 [TE] Humility - good card for my meta, the only way to deal with rgsa, helps vs goblins and a lot of other decks.
4 [SC] Decree of Justice
SB: 4 [PS] Orim's Chant
SB: 4 [LE] Glowrider
SB: 4 [ON] True Believer - 12 answers for combodecks. chalise and sphere are great, but we need a clock.
SB: 3 [TSP] Return to Dust - i think its better than disenchant/abolish cuz it can destroy for example 2 survivals and also it removes artifact from the game, its great vs mishra`s factories.
1) i dont use runes because i dont think burn would be very popular and anyway burn seems good matchup. and i dont think rune is great vs goblins, im satisfied with bandages/stp/shards/humility against them.
2) wrath of god/rout. yes, i dont use it. i think i have quite enough removal vs aggrodecks and dont want to have 1 more dead card in bad matchups. it doesnt cantrip so i think akroma's vengeance is much better. i dont have it now(because i needed it very rarely) but i think i can change my opinion and would use 2 md. but what to cut and do i really need to cut smtng for such card?
3) i see some of u use chants and/or disenchants in main deck but i dont think i need these cards md in my meta.
_____________________________
ykpon
I would definitely cut furnaces. They are just too slow and different GY hate would be better. I also think you need wrath. What is it dead against? Combo now relies mostly on creatures and it is amazing in the MUs you want to beat, like Survival, gobbos, and even thresh and fish type decks. Resolving it is a big advantage. I would also cut the cycle lands. i used to run them, but get mana screwed a ton. You never want it to be one of your 2 lands. I also don't think Scarab should be a problem. Just save one of your Swords to Plowshares and remove it from the game. In the board I would try to add Tormod's Crypt. Hope this helps.
First off, I cut the bandages from my list, and I think you should do the same. This deck does not need a reach through mists, all the other cyclers actually serve some kind of function or create virtual card advantage.
You should definetely run Wrath, it is a huge bomb against any aggro or aggro/control decks. The only matchup it is bad against is landstill and perhaps storm combo (if TES comboes out with Warrens, WoG can be useful).
Phyrexian furnace is definately good in here, especially against loam decks, because if you drop it early, it eats up their whole yard, and it can be used to get rid of that loam to slow them down. Crypt has no place here, unless you have many g-yard based combo decks in your meta, namely Breakfast and Ichi. It also works against Scarab.
I agree with Jak on the cycle lands. I used to run them, but found them to be too great of a liability. Just stick to the basics.
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