[Deck] Survival

[from Cairo]

If I have Survival, I'll just get my own damn Goyf.

Better yet get your own Big Game Hunter, madness him offing the opposing Goyf, pulling up your own damn Goyf.

Drake seems clunky. The things one would want to steal are generally going to be opposing Goyfs, but in that case I think just running Shriekmaw is better, since it doesn't give them a 3/3 with evasion out of the deal and potentially if you have 3 mana open gives you a 3/3 with evasion.
Versus reanimator/breakfast type decks I would rather just have Big Game Hunter.

If you weren't running black I could see the plus sides of Drake, but otherwise I think the other two creature options are better. About the only thing they don't answer is Mystic Enforcer, but Birds can chump that for a few turns if need be.

[Di]

Is that really better than just Shriekmawing it to death? The fact that it's only one Drake suggests it's there to be Survivaled up. If I have Survival, I'll just get my own damn Goyf.

Getting your own Goyf will just put them both in a standoff. Drake gives you a means to start beating with theirs, which is awesome. Shriekmawing it to death is fine too, but given that Shriekmaw is not a 4/5-6/7 monster, it isn't as good. You can always just Shriekmaw the Gilded Drake and keep that 5th Tarmogoyf.

[Anarky87]

How has Doran been testing out in the BGW builds? I'm curious as to whether I should be picking some up.

[MattH]

Getting your own Goyf will just put them both in a standoff. Drake gives you a means to start beating with theirs, which is awesome. Shriekmawing it to death is fine too, but given that Shriekmaw is not a 4/5-6/7 monster, it isn't as good. You can always just Shriekmaw the Gilded Drake and keep that 5th Tarmogoyf.

I meant that I would Maw their Goyf, THEN get my own.

The real test of the slot, it seems to me, is how well it performs when you don't have Survival. And Drake seems weak for that. :<

[Di]

How has Doran been testing out in the BGW builds? I'm curious as to whether I should be picking some up.

I like him, but wouldn't run more than one, maybe two at the most. He's solid on his own as a 5/5 and makes your Birds of Paradise beat along with Treefolk Harbinger if you happen to run it, which is awesome. The only issue I have with him is the three-color casting cost, which although isn't necessarily difficult to get, can be troublesome at times.

The real test of the slot, it seems to me, is how well it performs when you don't have Survival. And Drake seems weak for that. :<

This depends. At times it can be incredibly weak, but against decks like Threshold, Breakfast, Goblins, etc, it can shine. I suppose though it's most likely inferior to another Shriekmaw, so I guess in the end it's not worth the slot.

But fwiw though, I'm not even running ATS currently. Lorwyn did too much stupid shit in other splash colors.

[AngryTroll]

There was talk originally about running Treefolk Harbinger in the different Survival decks to block Lackey and find Duals. Is this actually any better than running Tinder Wall?

Assuming you are running Red, Tinder Wall is acceleration, Lackey blocking, and kills Goblins after the first turn. Treefolk Harbinger finds a forest, which means that you are going to get to another land, whether or not your 0/3 lives to your turn. Has anyone actually played Harbinger to get a feel for it?

[Di]

Assuming you are running Red, Tinder Wall is acceleration, Lackey blocking, and kills Goblins after the first turn. Treefolk Harbinger finds a forest, which means that you are going to get to another land, whether or not your 0/3 lives to your turn. Has anyone actually played Harbinger to get a feel for it?

I really like him. Having the option of fetching a Forest is great as it fixes mana, gets basics against Wasteland, gets you out of manascrew, etc. It also allows you to drop the overall count of nonbasics, and possibly land from the deck. I generally run a 20 land build, but I'm testing 19 right now with Harbinger and so far am not having any difficulty. Plus, the card has the ability to win the game on its own. The Harbinger chain into grabbing Doran is a rather solid plan outside Survival. It adds a completely new dimension to the deck.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Could Mesmeric Fiend become another discard spell?
Yeha its cc is not so good, but you could search/discard it for SotF...

So is the adittional wroth the synergie?

[from Cairo]

Could Mesmeric Fiend become another discard spell?
Yeha its cc is not so good, but you could search/discard it for SotF...

So is the adittional wroth the synergie?

Fiend is ok, now I think, I would probably lean towards Duress/Therapy being superior since their 1cc. But post Lorwyn I definitely wouldn't chose Fiend over Thoughtseize and Cabal Therapy.

[bigbear102]

Fiend used to be in my board, but it's just too slow. Thoughtseize is DEFINATELY better.

I think some more life gain is needed with the addition of Thoughtseize. Especially if you are playing Bob, which with all the new cheap ass threats doesn't look like too bad of an idea. Harbingers also make Bob a bit better, as you can search up a 0, 1, or 3 cc card.

[from Cairo]

I'm thinking a pair of Spike Feeders since I play Bob and Thoughtseize, the counters can pump up Goyfs, can remove Bridges, and can offset life loss. It seems like the best choice.

[Tacosnape]

I'm a fan of Darkheart Sliver for the lifegain, personally, as it can act like Harmonic Sliver #2, can make Harmonic Sliver act like Lifegain #2, is cheap, and can remove a Bridge.

...This is assuming you're running BGW.

As for Doran, yes. He is worth exactly two slots in BGW. He is a monstrous facebeater that will win you a lot of games where you don't have Survival.

I don't like Treefolk Harbringer, however.

[bigbear102]

I haven't tested the Slivers yet, but still just don't like the idea of it. Unless they really impress me, I would play 1 Feeder and 1 Loxodon.

[Tacosnape]

I haven't tested the Slivers yet, but still just don't like the idea of it. Unless they really impress me, I would play 1 Feeder and 1 Loxodon.

Currently I'm playing a Darkheart and a Loxodon. What's your replacement for Harmonic Sliver, exactly? And in what build? BGW is kind of hurting for other great options.

[CynicalSquirrel]

I won a Legacy trial at magic-league playing GBW Survival yesterday. I played an exact copy of Tacosnape's list, since it looked pretty refined, but I added 2 Hierarchs to the SB since m-l is contaminated by burn and random aggro decks.

Round one I beat a High Tide deck 2-0. The player fizzled game one due most likely to some play errors, but game two I just ripped his hand with the 12 discard spells and other disruption to get the win.

Rounds two and three I beat similar Threshold decks, basically because of Shriekmaw being completely insane. They both played Threads of Disloyalty which was really annoying, but Harmonic Sliver was able to take care of it. Basically they would run out of cards when I had Survival out and from there the win was easy.

Round 4 I beat 43 Land.dec. Game one I basically scooped since I had nearly no way to win, but game two I Extirpated his Loams and smashed face to get the win. Game three he got a good draw, but I ended up stalling the board at 5 life and ended up winning when he milled his library from too much dredging early in the game and had no way to get through two 5/6 Tarmogoyfs, while I couldn't play anything since he had all 4 Ports out and I was out of basic lands in the deck (I played the Goyfs off of Birds). A clutch Swords to Plowshares on Treetop Village also helped.

Round 5 I beat a suboptimal Ichorid build by basically lucksacking and hitting Extirpate at the right times. Gaddock Teeg was also huge to shut down the Dread Returns.

So basically I beat some bad decks and players, but I was still impressed with how the deck was able to handle any kind of combo deck, even with a bad pilot or whatever. The Threshold matchup is also even stronger than it was before.

I also really liked Doran in the deck. I won one game without Survival with him and Tarmogoyf just beating face, and he was also really useful to try to end a game quickly against a combo deck that is stalled for whatever reason. I think playing 2 of him is probably correct.

I think GBW is really strong right now with the Lorwyn updates, and think if it catches on it could become one of the top decks in the format. Every matchup it has is at least winnable, so with the right cards anything can go down.

[bigbear102]

I still play red in my deck. I plan on keeping it that way for a while, until I really start having problems, or GBW proves itself to me. I think Anger is too important in the control matchup.

So, to answer the question, I play Zealot and Hooligan over Harmonic. When I play vial Keldon Vandals gets the hooligan slot. Not being able to recur my hate seems bad to me. I know if I play more slivers it gets better, but your opponent can also 'counter' the 2nd one by offing the Harmonic you have in play. If I did play harmonic I would still play zealot I think. Redundancy is key in Survival, and you don't want all the same answers, that's why I said 1 Feeder and 1 Loxodon for life gain, and the same reason I won't drop Bone Shredder for Shriekmaw, but will play both, and probably FTK if red stays.

Survival FTW, Writing decklists FTL.

[Anarky87]

That's all true, especially the last part. I've never felt truly blown out of any matchup. If I do lose, it's usually by the slightest bit or there was something I could have done differently. GBW has been the current version I've been playing lately. But hearing that Doran has been performing well, I'll be sure to pick some of those up.

From the people that have played it, has 3 Shriekmaw's been too many? I was thinking 2 at most, as 3 would just seem to clutter my hand with possibly useless 'Terrors.' Upon Lorwyn becoming legal, do you think you'd keep the Thoughtsiezes in the board for combo, or move them to the MD?

[Di]

I still play red in my deck. I plan on keeping it that way for a while, until I really start having problems, or GBW proves itself to me. I think Anger is too important in the control matchup.

This is why I'm currently running GBW with Anger. :) Currently, GBW is a phenomenal color combination for Survival. I just still find it soo slow. Not having haste feels like I'm getting Time Walked every turn. Technically though, Anger isn't the only thing I'm splashing red for, but I think the other red slot is completely justified. List will come at the end of the post.

Now to address some issues:

@ Life gain creatures.

The life gain slot is unique compared to the other slots regarding traditional Survival slot ideology. Generally, you work to run as many slots that as you can that are beneficial in a variety of ways. However this is not the case with a life gain slot. When you're needing to gain life, I can assume that you're in danger of losing the game. That said, you need the cheapest option available to ensure you can recur him quickly and efficiently. I myself am currently using Darkheart Sliver and Loxodon Hierarch. By itself, it is the cheapest option of all of them and therefore is most best option available as it is the cheapest to recur. That is what this slot is primarily for. I also run Harmonic Sliver as well, so that makes it better.

Spike Feeder is fine because it gets an extra life and is a 2/2 under Humility, but I'd rather pay five mana to recur a life gain target rather than six.

Loxodon Hierarch is also really good, but I don't think it can be played on it's own as a life gain target. It is much too expensive to recur him on his own, so I believe you need to leave that to Darkheart Sliver. It happens to be fantastic to attribute Darkheart with Hierarch, though.

So, to answer the question, I play Zealot and Hooligan over Harmonic. When I play vial Keldon Vandals gets the hooligan slot. Not being able to recur my hate seems bad to me. I know if I play more slivers it gets better, but your opponent can also 'counter' the 2nd one by offing the Harmonic you have in play. If I did play harmonic I would still play zealot I think. Redundancy is key in Survival, and you don't want all the same answers, that's why I said 1 Feeder and 1 Loxodon for life gain, and the same reason I won't drop Bone Shredder for Shriekmaw, but will play both, and probably FTK if red stays.

I find it ironic you mention redundancy in the same paragraph of mentioning you're using two slots on something that can, and should, obviously be handled with one. It doesn't make sense to waste a slot when you can make much better use of it. Harmonic may not be able to recur itself, but neither can Tin Street Hooligan, but Tin Street doesn't have the option of being sacrificed for three life, which is a really appealing aspect that the slivers give you. Also about Harmonic is that running that, assuming Darkheart is also run, effectively gives you two Naturalizes as well. Turning two slots into life gain and Naturalize at the same time seems a helluva lot better than running two different life gain slots and then two different artifact/enchantment destruction slots.

Also, I don't get running a combination of Shriekmaw and Bone Shredder together as opposed to just Shriekmaw and Big Game Hunter. People act like Shriekmaw is just a 1B instant, and entirely forget that you can actually cast it for 4B. This is a mana-intensive deck, and having the mana to hardcast him isn't difficult at all.

Regarding Feeder and Hierarch, that is acceptable, because one at least fulfills a different role in the deck. However, something like two Spike Feeders would not be.

Now, regarding my own decklist that I've been working on since Lorwyn was first spoiled. It doesn't have much testing behind it so please don't go harsh on it as it probably isn't anywhere near optimal yet, but so far I've been pleased.

GBWr Survival

4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Swords to Plowshares

1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Anger
1 Genesis

4 Treefolk Harbringer
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Eternal Witness
1 Doran, the Seige Tower
2 Shriekmaw
1 Big Game Hunter
1 Masticore/Flametongue Kavu
1 Gaddok Teeg
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Loxodon Hierarch
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Darkheart Sliver
1 Quirion Ranger

4 Birds of Paradise
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Bayou
3 Savannah
1 Taiga
5 Forest

Sideboard:
3 Thoughtseize
2 Engineered Plague
1 Goblin Pyromancer
2 Krosan Grip
1 Gaddok Teeg
1 Magus of the Moon
2 Pithing Needle
2 Extirpate
1 Yixlid Jailer

For the most part, the maindeck is self-explanitory. I'm testing the land count at 19 right now thanks to Treefolk Harbinger, and so far I am fine with it. Some people like Harbinger; some don't. I'm personally happy with him so far, as he is also a solid lategame topdeck because he fetches Doran. If they end up being bad though, I'll simply go back up to 20 land and switch them with Nimble Mongoose. I'm contemplating adding another Doran in the deck, which would probably go over the direct damage removal slot (Masticore/FTK). The other red slot I mentioned earlier was Magus of the Moon, which is just reeeedonkulous right now. At eight nonbasics it isn't too huge of a deal on my own considering if I'm casting the card I can play around it just fine, and it also allows me to not fetch the Taiga for Anger which is nice. The removal suite is doing fine so far. Actually, it's doing more than fine; it's insane. 4 StP, 2 Shriekmaw, 1 BGH, and a direct damage creature. I'll be damned if I lose to a creature-based dec. StP could theoretically be replaced with Thoughtseize in the maindeck, but I guess it's a matter of preference. I prefer having my opponent gain life rather than me lose two life. I like BGH now. BGH was shitty for long time. Then they printed Tarmogoyf and Sutured Ghoul all of a sudden became a good creature. Then wtf, BGH is a good target. The Masticore/FTK slot is simply there the random stuff that the other creatures can't hit, like Dark Confidant or something random. It's by far the weakest slot in the deck, but the option to mow down an opponent's army is nothing to scoff at.

The sideboard seems sloppy and disorganized, but it's not bad. I tried to balance everything out the best I could, which would lead to it's ugly look. I tried to make it so the deck could have enough tools against combo and control as possible post-board, and it's been good so far. I had Pernicious Deed in the sideboard for a while but recently cut it as I feel it's overkill against the decks I'd bring it in against. Given how much removal my maindeck stocks as is, I don't foresee very many problems with such strategies, and it's all but useless against control.

[CynicalSquirrel]

I'll have to try the red splash, because as a longtime BGR Survival player it really does just feel wrong when you can't turn your creatures sideways right away. The 4c mana base still seems dicey to me, but I'll have to give it a shot anyways. Magus of the Moon was the one card I really missed when playing 43 land, since it's just such a random auto win against them. I didn't find myself ever really wishing I had Flametongue Kavu though, and I doubt it'll find its way back into my list. Darkheart Sliver is another card I've yet to try.

The thing I love about Survival decks is that they can only improve with each new set being built. Survival has already seen the worst hosers it possibly can with Pithing Needle, Suppression Field, etc. Now it only improves because the creature pool is just constantly increasing and there's always new goodies to test out.

[from Cairo]

I would definitely take Masticore over FTK in that spot, if for no other reason than the ability to pay an extra green mana when digging for something to pump Goyf, otherwise the list has no Artifacts.

With Shriekmaw, Swords, Big Game Hunter and Masticore, I would imagine you can grab an answer to just about any creature in the format.