[OLD] UGr Threshold

[chokin]

I see: Mental Note is some good fun at getting Threshold hyper-fast.

Thanks.

Why do you want Threshold "hyper-fast" when the only card that uses it is Nimble Mongoose? Sure Goyf uses the yard, but not the same way. Note is harder to guarantee you aren't milling away good cards without using a Brainstorm or Portent(or Ponder! )

I personally like: 4 Brainstorm, 4 Serum Visions, 2 Portent(totally gone by Friday for 4 Ponder). Opt is really good when you run Stifle too. On the first couple of turns, leave a land untapped so if they want to fetch, you can Stifle it, or if they don't, you can Opt.

I'm liking the look of Sensei's Top in the MD. I've never tried it, but it looks really good.

My list has a bit more burn. What is the general opinion of the best burn and the best amount to run? What's the most optimal list of UGr Thresh to run.

[kabal]

Why do you want Threshold "hyper-fast" when the only card that uses it is Nimble Mongoose?

When did he say that the only Threshold creature he uses is Mongoose? If he is playing Werebear as well then Mental Note makes sense.

[chokin]

Well, assuming he's running what seems to be the standard, then it makes no sense to run it. In a very aggressive version of Threshold(Bears, Geese, and Goyfs), yes, it is a good card. But even then, wouldn't chaining cantrips be an overall better route? Refine your hand so you can burn them down? I could be wrong, mostly because it simply costs more mana to do it.

[DragoFireheart]

When did he say that the only Threshold creature he uses is Mongoose? If he is playing Werebear as well then Mental Note makes sense.

This.

I am currently making my Thresh deck to run Goose/Goyf/Grizziles.

I want my aggro to have a bit more of "SMASH FACE" with a little bit of "lol, u cast wath o dog? NO!"

I am still debating on whether I should stay as UG with mana denial or go UGR for burn. It'd probably make sense to go UGR for the burn route since I am trying to make an aggresive Thresh deck.

[chokin]

This.

I am currently making my Thresh deck to run Goose/Goyf/Grizziles.

I want my aggro to have a bit more of "SMASH FACE" with a little bit of "lol, u cast wath o dog? NO!"

I am still debating on whether I should stay as UG with mana denial or go UGR for burn. It'd probably make sense to go UGR for the burn route since I am trying to make an aggresive Thresh deck.

I like the red. UG is very disruptive and kinda reminds me of good ol' UG Madness from back when I was new to Legacy. UGr's burn pushes through extra damage and Fire/Ice can tap an opposing creature and let your angry creatures push more damage though.

[DragoFireheart]

I like the red. UG is very disruptive and kinda reminds me of good ol' UG Madness from back when I was new to Legacy. UGr's burn pushes through extra damage and Fire/Ice can tap an opposing creature and let your angry creatures push more damage though.

I would ask for a deck list you would suggest, but then I would be really lazy on my part as I have this entire thread to look at.

Something that would be really cool though is if there were some way to include fireblast into thresh.

[Soto]

It already runs like 17-18 lands, -2 is ouch, even though it might be the 4 last damage you need.

[aTn]

What is the general opinion of the best burn and the best amount to run? What's the most optimal list of UGr Thresh to run.

Cocky answer: Read the previous pages of this thread.

Helpful answer (I hope):

From my point of view, there's a lot of good UGR builds but there's no single "optimal list" or optimal burn package.

The lists contained in the following post are recent and were successful at recent major events. I think they're a good starting point to make your own personal tests/experimentations.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...&postcount=681

[chokin]

My most recent list that I played last Saturday looked something like:

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Burning-Tree Shaman

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Spell Snare

4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
2 Portent(dear god, make Ponder come out already...2 more days!)

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Fire/Ice
4 Magma Jet

1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Island
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island

I went 7-3. Notes after the tournament were that BTS hurt like a bitch(but playing 2 completely shut down a White Weenie deck relying pretty heavy on Jitte to beat me) and was always boarded out for SDT and CB "combo".

From that I'm doing:
-3 BTS
-1 Forest

+2 Fire/Ice
+2 Portent

-or-
-3 BTS

+3 Stifle

The reason why I'd cut that Forest is simply because I only run 8 green spells MD and having it in the opening hand kinda sucked most of the time.

[DragoFireheart]

My most recent list that I played last Saturday looked something like:

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Burning-Tree Shaman

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Spell Snare

4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
2 Portent(dear god, make Ponder come out already...2 more days!)

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Fire/Ice
4 Magma Jet

1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Island
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island

I went 7-3. Notes after the tournament were that BTS hurt like a bitch(but playing 2 completely shut down a White Weenie deck relying pretty heavy on Jitte to beat me) and was always boarded out for SDT and CB "combo".

From that I'm doing:
-3 BTS
-1 Forest

+2 Fire/Ice
+2 Portent

-or-
-3 BTS

+3 Stifle

The reason why I'd cut that Forest is simply because I only run 8 green spells MD and having it in the opening hand kinda sucked most of the time.

You still want that one forest. All it takes is a sinkhole/wasteland and an extirpate to ruin your day

[chokin]

You still want that one forest. All it takes is a sinkhole/wasteland and an extirpate to ruin your day

Yeah. That would do it. I'll probably end up keeping it and cutting something else from the revised list. Also, I just tested the UG version. Very strange, but very aggressive. I think one game I ended up swinging with 2 Threshed Bears and 4/5 Goyfs. Granted it was a godly draw against an opponent who was playing some weird control deck, it seemed high powered. It made me realize how much I missed that silly old bear too.

I don't know if the UG version is the 'best' Thresh deck to play. I think that the splashes are worthwhile and give you great matchups against tons of decks(white being better against combo, red better against the mirror and aggro). Playing UG Thresh also reminded me a bit of the old Turbo Xerox deck even though all of the Thresh decks are based off of it. I felt like I was drawing more threats and counters than I was with the splashes. Also there was only one time when I got mana screwed(but I messed the opponent up bad...2x Wasteland and a force of will made us both stuck with no lands)

I am now considering running the bear again in Thresh over some amount of burn and someting else.

[Sigar]

Why do you think splashing white makes the combo MU better? And the red splash is certainly not superior in the mirror.

[FredMaster]

Why do you think splashing white makes the combo MU better?

For example because you can use:
- Orim's Chant
- Abeyance
- Rule of Law

[calosso]

For example because you can use:
- Orim's Chant
- Abeyance
- Rule of Law

No, it is because you can use Teeg, and meddling mage.

[Citrus-God]

Soo.... I take it you guys are unsatisfied with Pyroclasms and Counterbalances against Combo?

Clasm is just good against EtW, Counterbalance is just good, and if you're worried about Breakfast, dont be. Play Needles and Bolts for a reason. But what may suck with Lightning Bolts is that before combo, they can just re-direct 3 dmg to one of their Goyfs in play. If you're however, worried about it, you can just run REB and Pyroblasts, as well as Crypt.

[chokin]

I'd say that the white splash has a better matchup against combo due to Meddling Mage and Teeg. Some guys listed other good things(Chant and Abeyance), but I haven't seen much of that played. Geddon does well against Solidarity once you get a threat online.

Red doesn't do as well against combo. Sure Pyroclasm gets ETW...and even Zombie Tokens in Ichorid(assuming they don't kill you first). But not all decks use 1/1s and 2/2s. Counterbalance is good, but very limited. To keep it actively countering, it drains 2-3 mana a turn. When you're using your mana to do that, you go into a near Draw, Go playstyle until you hit more lands or get enough counters in hand.

Both can play Engineered Explosives, great...same as above on 'Clasm.

I think red is superior in the mirror. I had a discussion about this yesterday with someone. Assume both sides bring in CB+Top(they might use Grip to hit each others CB and maybe EE to kill Geese). Red might bring in REB/Pyroblast(3-4) and White might bring in...what...maybe BEB/Hydroblast(3-4). Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but REB/Pyro has a much higher chance of being used(hits Mage, CB, BEB, Force, Spell Snare, Daze, any cantrip if you really want) than BEB/Hydro is a bit more limited(REB, Bolt, Jet, Fire/Ice). So if White tries to resolve a CB, Red can use all of it's counters to stop it. White can only use Force/SS/Daze...with 2 less mana than what it had. Red, however, has a slightly better shot at getting one through only having to fight Force/SS/Daze. The BEB(if any were put in) only target red, so it's useless in a counter war unless they use REB.

That's a very hypothetical situation, but if either deck gets a CB and Top online, thats GG. Just saying that REB does better against most of the deck, and BEB does well against burn and the REBs

[DragoFireheart]

Thats a very good argument for the Thresh mirror argument. Post board it seems like UGR Thresh is very strong.

[T is for TOOL]

I'd say that the white splash has a better matchup against combo due to Meddling Mage and Teeg. Some guys listed other good things(Chant and Abeyance), but I haven't seen much of that played. Geddon does well against Solidarity once you get a threat online.

Thresh does well against combo regardless of which color splash you choose. Both will side in Counterbalance and some form of board removal, in the form of Grip, and either E.E or Pyroclasm, as the situation dictates.

Red doesn't do as well against combo. Sure Pyroclasm gets ETW...and even Zombie Tokens in Ichorid(assuming they don't kill you first). But not all decks use 1/1s and 2/2s.

You claim that red won't do as well against combo, but then you don't explain why. What combo decks is the URG splash weaker against than the UWG splash and why?

Counterbalance is good, but very limited. To keep it actively countering, it drains 2-3 mana a turn. When you're using your mana to do that, you go into a near Draw, Go playstyle until you hit more lands or get enough counters in hand.

This is wrong. Counterbalance is good because it is not limited. Once it resolves it will trigger on any spell your opponent plays, at no cost. Furthermore correct manipulation of the top of your library requires minimal mana investment. With a Counterbalance on the table you can play a single threat and protect it while it wins you the game.

I think red is superior in the mirror. I had a discussion about this yesterday with someone. Assume both sides bring in CB+Top(they might use Grip to hit each others CB and maybe EE to kill Geese). Red might bring in REB/Pyroblast(3-4) and White might bring in...what...maybe BEB/Hydroblast(3-4). Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but REB/Pyro has a much higher chance of being used(hits Mage, CB, BEB, Force, Spell Snare, Daze, any cantrip if you really want) than BEB/Hydro is a bit more limited(REB, Bolt, Jet, Fire/Ice). So if White tries to resolve a CB, Red can use all of it's counters to stop it. White can only use Force/SS/Daze...with 2 less mana than what it had. Red, however, has a slightly better shot at getting one through only having to fight Force/SS/Daze. The BEB(if any were put in) only target red, so it's useless in a counter war unless they use REB.

White has an advantage in the first game because Swords to Plowshares is much better removal than Lightning Bolt. Post board both sides will bring in Counterbalance and Grip. Depending on the SB choices, there may also be Threads of Disloyalty or Control Magic or others. Neither REB nor BEB answers opposing creatures, and REB is not a solid answer to a resolved Counterbalance. Again, however, the white removal will be better post SB as well. REB may be better than BEB in the mirror, but neither should be run so the point is moot.

[donkyranger]

I dont know why people think white splash is better. And I agree very little to the statement that Swords is better then Lightning Bolt. I played White splash at Legacy Championships at Gen Con and got 33 finishing with a 4-1-3 record. The three tied games were tied because I couldnt kill them and the control part of the deck did its job, but then late game they did what they were sppost to with there decks and I was left to just stall out the game. Swords has its ups but the downs just dont work in Threshold.

[kabal]

I played White splash at Legacy Championships at Gen Con and got 33 finishing with a 4-1-3 record.

Could you post your deck list in the Ugw thread?