[Deck] Belcher

[Slay]

Because the Clasm/Explosives can be taken before you play EtW, in the late game.
-Slay

[Nihil Credo]

What is this "late game" that you speak of?

[dlevsApiJ]

I'm thinking/testing to play 4 Xantid Swarm main instead of 4 Pyroblast, who were gonne to side now (in the slots of the the Swarms)..
But i dont know whats better (even not with testing), the reasons you (dont) want to play him main:

Swarm main:
reasons why you want:
- It stops more then 1 counter.
- You play it a turn (ore more turns) before you combo, so you dont have to use 1 mana when you combo.

reasons why you dont want:
- You only want to cast it whit a permenant that makes mana, when you play it with Lotus Petal, you have 1 mana less when comboing
- Does nothing against MM ore something (but u have Bwish)
- Its not good if the other player has 1 STP and 1 Counter.. (Pyroblast will work in this situation of you have enough mana)
- Sometimes you play it turn 1 in game 1 (instead of winning turn 1, if you could), when you dont know what the other should play (afraid of counter), and then you see the other also play Combo and wins turn 1, or thing like CotV ore Trini turn 1.

Are there people who have tested him? And have good reasons to (dont) play him main....


Mvg

[BreathWeapon]

Yes, Xantid Swarm Time Walks the opponent into his Meddling Mage Counterbalance, Gaddok Teeg or Pernicious Deed, Pithing Needle or Chalice of the Void, Xantid Swarm can be countered with creature removal, there's more R mana than G mana etc.

Blasts are the best possible disruption card.

[Bane of the Living]

Dont forget blast is a nice maindeck card against Cephalid Illisionist and can target your non red spells to up storm count against non red decks. It also pitches to Cave In. (Red FoW arguement!)

I actually think a way to destroy artifacts maindeck is the tech right now. Everyone is relying on Needle easily stopping Belcher.

[dlevsApiJ]

Yes, Xantid Swarm Time Walks the opponent into his Meddling Mage Counterbalance, Gaddok Teeg or Pernicious Deed, Pithing Needle or Chalice of the Void, Xantid Swarm can be countered with creature removal, there's more R mana than G mana etc.

Blasts are the best possible disruption card.

Most of that cards arent even stopped by Pyrblast, but i see your points :).
It's also good against Breakfast, yes, havent thought about that (but in my meta in Holland, nobody plays it, but i think in the future people will, cause it is so good). And that it can add stormcount, Swarm can also (but green mana is hard to get/keep while comboing).

Yes, with the things you say, i think the Pyroblast's are coming back main:)

Mvg

[badjuju]

Hey guys,

I'm new to Legacy, but I'm hoping to pick up and participate in some local tourneys soon. Naturally, I don't have access to many dual lands (most of my buddies are T2 players), so I picked something that A) I saw place in several top 8's and B) was a bit cheaper to make. Killing fast is a plus :P

Anyways I put together a quick version and did some goldfishing and I like how the deck plays out. I think the deck takes a bit more knowledge and skill than people give it credit for, although it's definitely less of a brain-strain compared to the other combo decks. (Mostly just knowing and maximizing your option trees from any given hand, and when to ship it.)
The past few pages haven't had any updated decklists. Sorry if these are repeats, but I think it's about time we compiled some recent placing belcher lists:


' Belcher ' by Javier Sánchez Soriano
Event: 1 Torneo Liga Petrerense de Legacy
Date: 30.09.2007
Place: 6th
Participants: 40

creature [16]

4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Tinder Wall
4 Wild Cantor

instant [12]

4 Dark Ritual
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething Song

sorcery [16]

4 Burning Wish
3 Empty the Warrens
2 Infernal Tutor
4 Land Grant
3 Rite of Flame

artifact [15]

4 Chrome Mox
4 Goblin Charbelcher
3 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

land [2]

1 Bayou
1 Taiga

Sideboard:

1 Pyroclasm
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Rite of Flame
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Duress
2 Shattering Spree
1 Simplify
1 Hull Breach


' Belcher ' by Tsuda Yuugo
Event: Ancient Memory Convention #28
Date: 23.09.2007
Place: 4th
Participants: 51

creature [16]

4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Goblin Welder
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Tinder Wall

instant [11]

4 Desperate Ritual
3 Pyroblast
4 Seething Song

sorcery [15]

4 Burning Wish
3 Empty the Warrens
4 Land Grant
4 Rite of Flame

artifact [16]

4 Chrome Mox
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

land [2]

2 Taiga

Sideboard:

4 Pact of Negation
1 Empty the Warrens
2 Pyroclasm
1 Cave-In
1 Simplify
4 Shattering Spree
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Tendrils of Agony

' CRET Belcher ' by Andreas Rössler
Event: Bazaar-Liga Legacy September 2007
Date: 16.09.2007
Place: 2nd
Participants: 76

creature [19]

4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Street Wraith
4 Tinder Wall
3 Wild Cantor

instant [8]

4 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething Song

sorcery [15]

4 Burning Wish
3 Empty the Warrens
4 Land Grant
4 Rite of Flame

artifact [16]

4 Chrome Mox
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

land [2]

2 Taiga

Sideboard:

1 Empty the Warrens
3 Shattering Spree
1 Cave-In
1 Simplify
4 Dark Confidant
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Bayou


So you have successful decklists on all fronts:
A) with the inclusion of MD Infernal Tutors
B) with the inclusion of Welders and MD Pyros (with pacts in the board)
C) with the inclusion of Street Wrath (-Dark Rituals)

The most impressive placement is deck C, coming 2nd in a field of 76. It also happens to be my favorite variant so far for a few reasons:

-Street Wraith has been tested. According to PR's analysis, SW actually helped more hands than it hurt (4 help, 2 hurt, 8 unaffected by a sample size of 14). What it does is effectively make the deck 56 cards.
-Dark Ritual was always iffy especially with its dependence on Bayou and Cantor. By removing it you may lose some gas in the long run but you increase your consistency.
-Removal of Dark Ritual also means the removal of Bayou. I don't know about you guys, but I actually hit Bayou more times than I had expected while goldfishing. I'm not sure how this actually plays out in real tournaments, but giving your opponent an extra turn is never a good thing. A small chance to hit a Bayou is still a chance, and minimizing all chances of losing (in this case by exchanging one card) seems like an obvious decision.

I personally never really liked Infernal Tutor because it was always a mana sink, the situations where you tutor for more mana accelerant aren't as common as people claim they are, and sometimes you're stuck with the other kill card you CAN'T cast in your hand, so you can't hellbent tutor up the alternative.

Ok I don't know what's up with the board, but I guess it worked for him. It's pretty creative and lets you bounce back into the game with Confidant. I'd give it a shot at least, just to see what kind of results come up.

The other decks I'll leave for you guys to discuss amongst each other, but from what we can assume all variants are viable and it may just come down to preference or what you're accustomed to. I'd like to see what you guys think of the Japanese list that has welders and pacts. Seems like it's pretty well equipped to fight hate: should we take note?

It's late, sorry if my sentence structures sucked.

[Tacosnape]

Pact of Negation is a retarded and horrible idea for a deck that doesn't necessarily kill on the same turn it goes off. Pact + ETW doesn't work at all, and Pact + Belcher + Activate has the distant chance of hitting a land and killing you as a result, whereas hitting the land under normal circumstances means you merely have to work your way up to 3 mana to finish the opponent off.

Also, I absolutely -love- Build C. I think it's fantastic. Our playgroup has long since given up on Black maindeck in Belcher, and the sideboard of Confidant/Therapy/Bayou is a questionable but fascinating idea.

[Brehn]

Yeah, Pact of Negation sucks.

Build A seems to be really bad -- black splash only for Infernal Tutor (does he do anything without LED?), Rite of Flame in the Wishboard (wtf?). Build B wastes slots for Goblin Welder, who won't do anything.

My build is similiar to build C, mainboard I have
-1 Taiga (1 land seems to be enough)
-3 Wild Cantor (meta choice)
+4 Pyroblast (meta choice)

I don't think the "transformational" black splash is worth it as Black was cut from the lists for some reason. Dark Confidant was dismissed in TES, how bad must it be in Belcher then? A non-transformational sideboard for a RG-version would be like this:
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Shattering Spree
1 Goblin War Strike (<-- great)
1 Hull Breach
1 Simplify
1 Cave-In
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 random slots (more REB, maybe Infernal Tutor, Pyroclasm or Xantid Swarm [I'm not a friend of this]) - obv 4 Pyroblast if not maindecked

[lloydrage]

I am building this deck right now, do I go for the version with dark ritual or without?

thanks

[Nihil Credo]

I say go straight R/G, and fill the DR slots with Street Wraiths or Pyroblasts (depending on the meta). In addition to the danger of hitting a Bayou and multiple Time Walking your opponent, more hands are ruined by Ritual's colour screw than are saved by its +2 mana production.

[lloydrage]

thanks Nihil, I will build that.

do you have an example decklist with sideboard?

thanks again

[Brehn]

My list:

1 Taiga
4 Land Grant
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide

4 Rite of Flame
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething Song
4 Tinder Wall

4 Street Wraith
4 Pyroblast

4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Burning Wish
3 Empty the Warrens

====

1 Empty the Warrens
4 Shattering Spree
1 Cave-In
1 Hull Breach
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Goblin War Strike
1 Simplify
1 Grapeshot
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Wild Cantor

[Nihil Credo]

My current list is very close to Brehn's. I just run +1 Taiga, -1 Pyroblast in the maindeck, and +1 REB, -1 Wild Cantor in the SB.

[lloydrage]

quick question, why run street wraith? Isnt mana better there?

as always thanks

[Brehn]

There are no replacements in the colors that actually net you mana, so you run Street Wraith to cycle it into mana (and sometimes an alternative win condition). Some people play Wild Cantor in his place, which is effectively just +1 storm. In the black build, Cantor is also used as a mana fixer though.

[lloydrage]

is there a primer for this deck?

[Nihil Credo]

1) Do about 100 goldfishes.
2) Be good at guessing whether your opponent has countermagic/EE in hand.

That is just about all that is needed to pilot this deck well.

[lloydrage]

ok, was just hoping for some more info :)

thanks though

[badjuju]

ok, was just hoping for some more info :)

thanks though

That's really all the information you need. The deck doesn't take an especially large amount of thinking to play, just become comfortable with your mana production spells and win conditions, do some simple math, and know what to expect against certain deck archetypes.

The more you goldfish the deck the more familiar you become with what hands to keep and what not to keep. After a while, you start seeing cards as fixer, one mana gain, two mana gain, LED as post wish or belcher mana, etc etc. After you know all the possible combinations, you can decide whether or not you should mulligan with only a quick glance at what your opening hand is.

For Nihil's second suggestion, that's something you're going to have to work on over time. Knowing your matchups (especially game 2) is extremely crucial. First game you will goldfish more than half the time based on the fact that most decks aren't well equipped (besides blue-based ones) to counter a turn 1 belcher activation or even 10+ EtW tokens. When you head into game 2, all sorts of hate comes in, and that's when you'll have to judge whether or not your hand is A) resilient enough to fight past hate B) has enough disruption to push your combo through C) not good enough and in need of a mulligan.

If you're not for ballsy decks, I don't think you should play this. It really is hit and miss, and if you play against blue-based control and hate cards all day you're probably not going to do as well. However, it is fast and consistent which, on the other hand, makes your opponent mulligan and play according to your rules. The fear of dying on the first turn alone makes this deck a menacing threat.

Oh yea, a lot of people seem to be misunderstanding Street Wraith's function. You're asking if mana should replace him? Well then, what kind of mana are you talking about? All the best red mana production spell are already in this deck (one's that net you +1 or +2 red) and by running Street Wraith you are effectively cutting down your deck to 56 cards and increasing the chances that you'll draw the good mana production spells.