[Deck] Suicide Black

[Tacosnape]

That's 64 cards. I can't imagine that being very optimal.

[Galroth]

@ Barook - That's exactly what I would run... :) Depending on the meta I might consider 4x Hypnotic Specter instead of 4x Yixlid Jailer if graveyard combo wasn't too prevalent. I'd also consider +1 Duress -1 Hymn to Tourach. Duress is better at taking apart fast combo, but it's hard not to love Hymn's pure card advantage. Those are meta concerns though. Otherwise I think it's beautiful ;)

Lake of the Dead - The benefits of this card are obvious. The mana acceleration allows for greater consistency in turn 3 Jitte or Swords of Fire and Ice (if you run them). The deck really wants to see a piece of equipment midgame. This keeps your smaller critters still effective and lets you play the beatdown like this deck wants to. Basically it's the decks midgame strategy 'til your pumpables are just too big to be stopped. Later on Lake of the Dead does exactly that though. Makes your critters huge. This is easily game ending with a Shade in play.

But running Lake is also a risk. Tacosnape, I seriously think you're overlooking the benefits of this card. First, how many decks are actually running Wasteland. Far less than half in my meta. That's not to say it isn't a valid concern - I have no intention of downplaying this whatsoever. Wasteland is a fear when running Lake of the Dead. However, I only run two Lakes. I'm very unlikely to see multiples in any game, so it's not going to cripple my game if a Wasteland is present. Moreover, if your opponent has a Wasteland out in the first few turns, then don't drop Lake of the Dead. It doesn't need to be played for mana, it's just an accelerant. If they're playing Wasteland but don't have it out, then it doesn't matter. Lake of the Dead will pay for itself with one activiation. You'll have your equipment into play which is all you needed it for. Or you'll have pumped one of your critters to lethal (or near lethal) levels. Even if Wasteland is out and tapped, sometimes it's worth it for that mana which in this deck almost directly translates to damage. Lake of the Dead really doesn't hamper this deck, and the potential payoffs are in my opinion, far worth the risk. Course, I wouldn't advocate them if I didn't think so. Pick it up, test it, I think your fear of Wasteland (or even scarier, Stifle) is unfounded. Like Negator, it will win you more than it will lose you.

[Tacosnape]

My fear of Wasteland is not the only reason for me to not run Lake of the Dead. I can't imagine a situation where I would want it, ever, as opposed to just wanting another Swamp.

It can't function as your first land. As your second land, it'll still get you on that turn assuming you tap the swamp first, but you'll have one land in play only - The Lake. If it gets Wastelanded, you probably lose, but even if it doesn't, you're still better off with the Swamp at this point because two Swamps can cast everything in some builds of Sui Black and most things in all builds of Sui Black.

This also means to even use the ability once, you're going to have to have a third land. My deck doesn't require three land to run at all. And even if you get the third land for that, what happens if you go Jitte, Equip, Swing, and your attacking creature gets STP'd/Bolted/Whatever? You'll need a fourth land to equip the Jitte again or play any threat not named Carnophage or Sarcomancy.

If I hit four lands, I want to be coming in with 6/5 Shades, 4/1 Pro-White guys (Or 3/1 Flying or 3/1 First Strike), or whatever else. I want four swamps. I don't want a Lake of the Dead.

[Ozymandias]

Well, I reconstructed the decklist from meory, so I think that the contagions are probably extraneous.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

And what testing statistic do you propose to offer to back that statement up? Don't use statements like "Through testing" to make a numerical statement when testing isn't giving you any sort of numerical statistic.

The truth is, it completely depends on what deck you're up against as to how many Zombies you -need-. What we do know is that the more zombies you have, the less likely Sarcomancy is to hurt you and the more you get hurt by Plague, and that against control decks you need an awful lot or they get to use Sarcomancy as a kill condition against you.

I personally disagree with your testing results, speaking as someone who ran Suicide Black before Sarcomancy was printed and has run some form of it at all times since. I find 10 to be dangerously low. But truth be told, I don't really care all that much if Sarcomancy has a zombie or not. I run Carnophage and Sarcomancy because they're excellent 1-drops that allow the turn two Rit-Jitte-Equip niftyness and play well off Dark Ritual, and I run the two Stromgald Crusaders because they can fly in a pinch, and evasion wins games.

On top of all that, I find that Plague 1 tends to go on "Insect" or "Shade," more than it goes on Zombie.

Ha ha ha, I just love the way you post. Perhaps my zombie count isn't backed up by hard numbers. I found with playing my deck, that I felt comfortable with 7 or 8. That is indeed not a hard and fast number, and it does matter which deck you are playing against. I am not sure how much we have to worry that we are not getting eaten by our cute little zombie (why does this dude need other zombies to nibble on unlike normal zombies...), but past a certain number I think is overkill. Anyway, I was more concerned for the Crusader and the Jailer with the engineered plague.

[Tacosnape]

...but past a certain number I think is overkill. Anyway, I was more concerned for the Crusader and the Jailer with the engineered plague.

True. Fortunately for me, I don't run Jailer. Maindecked Leylines make Jailer ext....ah..hell, what's that word? Not extemporaneous, that means something else. (Pauses mid-post to go to Thesaurus.com...) Extraneous. That's it. Maindecked Leylines make Jailer extraneous.

I think at some point if you get enough Zombies you have to look into Undead Warchief and LOTU, but the existence of Nantuko Shade is what keeps this from being a great idea, as Nantuko Shade is the king of badassery. (And shame on any of you who suggested cutting it. There's no other reason to even run this deck. It's not that great anyway and it's terrible without Shade.)

[LordEvilTeaCup]

(It's not that great anyway and it's terrible without Shade.)

The this deck is not that great anyway factor has been hitting me lately. Also to my chagrin, I think I am enjoying Burn more (even though that deck is worse off.) Meh, I put so much time and money in this deck but my devotion to this deck is wavering. I am considering on giving combo a whorl. I don't know, maybe this is just one of those weird phases. In a few months I will see another plateau to reach with this deck, or you might find my deck on ebay...

[Galroth]

And non-graveyard based decks make Leyline... what's the word... worthless. :P I still find it hard to believe that graveyard based decks are so rampant that you're willing to run a card that is dead in other match ups. Admittedly, that's only game 1. But even then, you don't know what you're going up against, and you've only got a 45% chance of having it in your opening hand. No personal insult intended, but to me that seems foolish. Yixlid Jailer atleast will always be useful, whether efficient or not is a different debate.

More on Lake of the Dead - Some of your arguments I have issue with.

It can't function as your first land. As your second land, it'll still get you on that turn assuming you tap the swamp first, but you'll have one land in play only - The Lake. If it gets Wastelanded, you probably lose, but even if it doesn't, you're still better off with the Swamp at this point because two Swamps can cast everything in some builds of Sui Black and most things in all builds of Sui Black.

You're right, it can't function as a first land, or a second land. It acts as a third or after. In fact, I'd almost just forget the fact that it's a land, because it's function is much more similar to Dark Ritual. It's an accelerant, or a huge reusable creature pump. I already explained that it isn't replacing a mana source, so suggesting that you'll lose if it gets wasted is nonsense. There is no need to play it from your hand, and you're not going to use its ability beyond once or twice if you do play it.

Two swamps can cast everything in your build. One of the cool things about the deck. But why do you run Dark Ritual? 3 mana? But two swamps can cast everything. The same reasoning applies to Lake of the Dead. It allows you to do multiple things in a turn.

This also means to even use the ability once, you're going to have to have a third land. My deck doesn't require three land to run at all. And even if you get the third land for that, what happens if you go Jitte, Equip, Swing, and your attacking creature gets STP'd/Bolted/Whatever? You'll need a fourth land to equip the Jitte again or play any threat not named Carnophage or Sarcomancy.

Six mana turn three is hard to scoff at. Duress, Thoughseize, or Hymn to Tourach away their StP/Bolt/Whatever? I'd rather not deal with worst case scenarios about how things could go wrong. That's not to say this doesn't happen. But it's rare and easily played around. Heck, drop one of your 2cc creatures instead of preemptively making them Discard. Then if you do happen to lose your equipped creature, you won't have to play with just your Carnophages and Sarcomancys.

We know the deck doesn't require three land to run at all. But it does get extra land as the game progresses (which is a great thing, you're not going to win many games with just 2 land), use those extra swamps and make them count quicker.

If I hit four lands, I want to be coming in with 6/5 Shades, 4/1 Pro-White guys (Or 3/1 Flying or 3/1 First Strike), or whatever else. I want four swamps. I don't want a Lake of the Dead.

You wouldn't rather a 9/8 Shade? Or atleast a 5/4 Shade with the option to become 9/8? This sounds a bit ridiculous to me.

Again, I just urge you to test it out. I'll freely admit it's a risk. But I've played this build off by very few cards ( http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...t=3451&page=20 ) since Stark introduced this version of suicide black to the Flash meta. Lake of the Dead is one of those cards that I've not yet regretted.

Interestingly enough I mentioned a few posts back that I view suicide black builds going in two different directions, more explosive and more consistent. Tacosnapes build is a perfect example of a very consistent and solid build. Will this win games more than an explosive build? Truthfully, I don't know.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

The later it is in a game, the better Lake of the Dead gets. I've been running a singleton in my version for years, and never regretted it. You really do need creatures that are able to capitalize on a late Lake, though. Shades and Pump Knights are the best candidates, but there's also Withered Wretch, I suppose. Other than that... well, not so much. I have found that it does increase late-game consistency (which is important, given the current metagame; Sui has to be prepared to go long if it has to--hence why equipment is so useful), but you do have to draw it first. Your call, really, but I don't think that Wasteland is much of an argument against a singleton card. Even at two slots, it's not such a great hazard. What's harder to imagine is actually drawing it when you need it.

[C.P.]

In a deck that has such a low land count, you do not want a nonbasic land that eats one of your lands when it comes into play.

I heard something named Wasteland sees some play in the format.


A question to Taco:
How's that maindeck Leyline treating you? what do you think of SB Serum Powder, as stark did to maximize his chance of getting one if he needed?

[GiantGrowth]

In a deck that has such a low land count, you do not want a nonbasic land that eats one of your lands when it comes into play.

I heard something named Wasteland sees some play in the format

I agree with galroth when he says it doesn't function like a land, it functions like a dard ritual. you don't want to have one on the first two turns of the game, thats why only one or two should be run. You don't want this in your opening hand with one other swamp, hoping the opponent doesn't have a wasteland, becasue he probably does.

[Tacosnape]

A question to Taco:
How's that maindeck Leyline treating you? what do you think of SB Serum Powder, as stark did to maximize his chance of getting one if he needed?

Excellent so far, though I admit to not having tested it as extensively as I'd like just yet. SB Serum Powder doesn't seem all that necessary when you consider that I won't always have to hit the Leylines both games 2 and 3 to win the match, considering I can hit them game 1. However, I suppose Powder's an intriguing option with the additional necessity to hit a Plague factored in. I'd have to cut Cursed Scroll to do it, however, and Scroll's too much of a bomb against Fish-style decks and as a kill condition against heavy control.

And non-graveyard based decks make Leyline... what's the word... worthless. :P I still find it hard to believe that graveyard based decks are so rampant that you're willing to run a card that is dead in other match ups.

Dead in what matchups, exactly? Leyline at least has -some- use against the following:

1. Any deck with a Tarmogoyf.
2. Any deck with Life From The Loam.
3. Survival, or any other deck with Squee, Genesis and Witness.
4. Cephalid Breakfast, Ichorid, or any combo deck that uses Ill-Gotten Gains.
5. Any deck with a Threshold card, be it Mongoose or Monestary.
6. Any deck with any sort of recursion, such as Regrowth in Train Wreck.
7. Any deck with Crucible of Worlds, such as Landstill or Stax.
8. Decks with Rotting Giant or Jotun Grunt, like Deadguy Ale or Red Death.
9. Any deck that has a flashback card in it, including Cabal Therapy or Flash of Insight.
10. Reanimator. Okay, I'm reaching here.

Leyline is currently -dead- against the following decks:

1. Goblins
2. Countersliver

Solutions to this problem after sideboarding?

1. Board out Leyline for Plague.
2. Board out Leyline for Plague. (EDIT: Or possibly Dystopia. Or possibly both.)

While Leyline isn't a bomb against some decks, almost every deck in existence has something graveyard related in it, because they think they can get away with it as long as there's not enough of it to warrant boarding in graveyard hate. Even the ever yard-hate resilient Aluren runs a Witness and sometimes a Deep Analysis, and even Goblins has talked about tossing in Wort, Boggart Auntie and Cabal Therapy, both of which would be hurt by Leyline.

People run Swords to Plowshares because it's useful against over 3/4 of the deck in the format. Leyline's useful against just slightly less.

[C.P.]

I agree with galroth when he says it doesn't function like a land, it functions like a dard ritual. you don't want to have one on the first two turns of the game, thats why only one or two should be run. You don't want this in your opening hand with one other swamp, hoping the opponent doesn't have a wasteland, becasue he probably does.

And you hope that the Lake is not functioning as land, in a deck that runs less than 20 lands? Most Sui Black decks need 2 mana to function properly, and to get 2 land assuming that your lake will get wastelanded, you need to draw 4 lands, including Lake. In my opinion, if we are going to up the land count, you need to sneak wastelands in, not the Lake.

[Tacosnape]

And you hope that the Lake is not functioning as land, in a deck that runs less than 20 lands? Most Sui Black decks need 2 mana to function properly, and to get 2 land assuming that your lake will get wastelanded, you need to draw 4 lands, including Lake. In my opinion, if we are going to up the land count, you need to sneak wastelands in, not the Lake.

Or Tomb of Urami, for that matter.

In any case, Lake of the Dead has no place in Legacy.

[JakeH]

Well... I don't know why more people aren't playing Suicide Black. It is incredibly fast, it can successfully screw up an opponent's game plan, and it has sideboard options that wreck many of the popular modern Legacy decks. This is the version that I run:

4-Nantuko Shade
4-Dark Confidant
4-Phyrexian Negator
4-Hypnotic Specter

4-Dark Ritual
4-Thoughtseize / Duress
4-Hymn to Tourach
4-Sinkhole
4-Umezawa's Jitte
4-Smother

4-Bloodstained Mire
4-Polluted Delta
12-Swamp

SB:
4-Leyline of the Void
4-Engineered Plague
4-Dystopia
3-Tsabo's Web

This build is very easy to play and incredibly consistent. Here are some answers to some sure-to-be-asked questions:

Why run smother? I would run "insert opinion here" instead.
-In my meta, smother kills everything with the exception of an Exalted Angel that has already been morphed. Diabolic Edict is another good choice of creature removal, but I prefer smother because it has a better chance of killing a Tarmogoyf. As for "Dead Draws" against creatureless decks, it really is not that big of a problem. The odds of drawing more than one before the game is over (considering "creatureless decks" to be combo or burn) is very unlikely.

Why do you run 4 jittes? That is lame considering you only have 16 creatures!
-Well... err... I don't know. If jitte hits the board, then I win. Active jitte on a shade is an absolute powerhouse.

Why do you run sinkholes, but no wastelands/ports? They are pointless and you're stupid!
-Cheap. Effective.

The rest shouldn't be up for questioning.




This deck performs well against Thresh and Breakfast. Landstill can be overrun. Burn is a crappy match. It can beat goblins. The deck has 24 disrupting cards, 8 cards that yield card-advantage, and 12 creatures that can win games by themselves. OK, my boss is about to let me go home so feel free to flame. L8rz...

[technogeek5000]

i wouldnt run 20 black sources, i always find myself getting flooded with 17. Also i dont think fetches are good in mono lists. The life loss seriously becomes a problem especially with thoughtsieze. Also you might want to lower your jitte count by 1. Multiples are never sexy.

Oh and for your board, take out leyline fro planar void. Tsabo's web might be good if your meta has LANDS and landstill but if its not then i would probably just find room for more combo/control hate in 4 duress.

[Tacosnape]

JakeH, why fetchlands, what with Stifle being on the rise and Fetchlands of your own making your Tarmogoyf problem worse?

[Berzerked]

You explain why you run Sinkhole, even in the absence of Wasteland, by why the absence of Wasteland? They pair with Bob/Sink/Gator very well.

[Ozymandias]

A piece of anti-Threshold tech.

Deepwood Legate
Creature-Shade
1/1
If an opponent controls a Forest and you control a Swamp, you may play Deepwood Legate without paying its mana cost.
B: Deepwood Legate gets +1/+1 until end of turn.

These are awesome if the opponent has a forest, and terrible the rest of the time.

[C.P.]

A piece of anti-Threshold tech.

Deepwood Legate
Creature-Shade
1/1
If an opponent controls a Forest and you control a Swamp, you may play Deepwood Legate without paying its mana cost.
B: Deepwood Legate gets +1/+1 until end of turn.

These are awesome if the opponent has a forest, and terrible the rest of the time.

Very interesting, but does not stop giant beating on your face. I wish it had evasion. Seems marginal, at best.