The most flabbergasting thing is 3 Ancient Tombs. I agree with several of his choices (Angels, 3 Stacks), and find others worth discussing (Canopy, MD Field), but that one I would just dismiss as a total blunder. It's unlikely to be a money problem, either, since he ran 2 Tabernacles.
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Yea definitely. I'm pretty sure it's supposed to be "4 tombs, 3 cities".
Mishra's Factory isn't that great with Suppression Field, so that exclusion makes sense.
With only 3 Magus and 0 Factories, Harald David had to put some alternate finisher in the deck. Turn 1 Morph, Turn 2 Angel is a great possibility to out race aggro if they can't find a quick answer (Chalice@1 and 3Sphere help that).Originally Posted by Yesmilord
BUT, when you have board control the Angel is a win-more card. Even a 1/1 Spirit Token could win you the game at this point.
That, and the fact that the "turbo-angel start" isn't guaranteed made some ppl drop the beast for another body+Lockpiece component : Windborn Muse. I agree with them.
Suppression Field is great but does nothing to threshold if they already fetched 1 land and drop another one. It shine after geddon though, but a successfull Geddon often win you the game.Suppression Field - Everyone knows that it's deadly in several matchups, but nobody ever maindecks it. Being able to stop anything from Aether Vial to Fetchlands seems like a pretty good deal. Is it worth putting MD?
They're not synergetic with Wastelands, Ports, Mishras and/or Canopy though. So I'll keep them off the deck.
Why not, if the slot provided add to the consistency of the deck (Tangle Wire#3-4, Armageddon/Ravages of War #5-6 etc...). But $t@x is built to abuse the card, running less than 4 is weird...Cutting down on Stax? - This isn't the first list I've seen with less than 4 smokestacks. In my experience, I always want to see this card, and rarely do I ever regret getting doubles in my hand. Might have been cut for more metagame cards, but this has become a semi-new trend. Comments?
Still, without Crucible and/or Flagstones//God's Eye you could not want an early Smokestack, so getting down to 3 is a possibility.
Dunno, the 1/1 token -even in multiple- is weak. But Ramping easily your soot counters to 2 is valuable.God's Eye, Gate to the Reikai - Is good for stax food and post-geddon. I haven't tested it yet, but running a copy or two might not hurt the deck. Paired with the Crucible/Stax lock, you can go ahead and set your stax to 2 counters without breaking a sweat. Worth running?
Still, I'd rather run 4 Flagtones than 3+2 God's Eye. White mana is more valuable than the Spirit Token, especially with 3 angels MD Harald ran.
Tabernacle is VERY efficient and VERY expensive !! For budget and "body packed-in" choice, I prefer 4 Magus. But I wish I could add 1 or 2 additional tabernacle effect round 2 versus aggro decks.Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale - Other than being ridiculously hard to find for a decent price, the card seems like a very efficient early answer to creatures. Because of this, David was able to drop one Magus of the Tabernacle. Not producing mana is a slight problem; I probably wouldn't run more than one because it's a legend. Worth running?
The Legend isn't a problem when your run 4 Mox Diamonds to pitch the extra one to the 'yard.
Recurring Canopy Horizon is the best draw option for the deck (the other one would be Bottled Cloister/Grafted Skullcap) and a nice recent addition to th deck.Horizon Canopy - Seems like a very smart inclusion in the deck. It produces white and cantrips - meaning it'll be infinite cantrips with crucible out. The deck seems to go into a very painful topdeck mode at times, maybe this is what we needed to shore that problem. Worth running?
I think they have to be included as a 2 of in every build that doesn't run Supp. Fields.
Not that good in addition to Suppression Field, but I can't see why you should not run at least 3 of them without the pesky enchantment.NO Mishra's Factory! - Seems like the card was never amazing to begin with in this deck. It was good for infinite chump blocking and whatnot or a slow win condition, but is it as necessary as people deem it is? Being able to stuff Lackey must be nice tho.
Recurring Mana+Uncounterable (Tabernacle-proof)Beater all-in-one ? Yummy !!!
Have you got a list of the decks Harald encounterd through top8 ?! It could explain a lot of his choices. (The lone Ghost Quarter for exemple, but mainly the Suppression Field MD presence...)
What do you think about lands like Tabernacle and Maze of Ith that don't make mana? Are they any good in this type of deck?
Maze of Ith wouldn't be good in this deck. At most, you only want 1, but yet, you can't really search for it like Eternal Garden. So, it is kind of useless as a one of, but clog up too much space as multiples. Also, Ghostly Prison and Magus of the Tabernacle combined with Armageddon already function nicely against creatures.
As for Tabernacle (the land), yea, it is a good card in this deck. It just that it is expensive to get one. All you need to do it play it, and it does its thing. Of course, it shouldn't really be played as a 4x of since it doesn't produce mana and it is legendary. Usually 1-2 of is good. Big problem is the price of these.
1. Exalted Angel
I was always a fan of Exalted Angel for its ability to finish games really quick. Only recently I've discovered that, crazy as it sounds, Exalted Angel might in fact be another lockpiece. Think about Blinding Angel and compare it to Exalted. In a sense Exalted is just another softlock component for opposing aggrodecks. Ghostly Prison effectively says your opponent needs at least 2 mana to attack and consequently deal damage. Angel says your opponent needs at least 5 power of creatures on the table to deal damage. So theoretically just as he has to draw more mana when he's manascrewed he needs to draw more power/additional or bigger creatures when he's "locked" by Exalted. The lifegain works against non-infine damage based combo (Tendrils) and Burn in a similar way. Think of it as a pseudo Disrupting Scepter. Every time you gain life your opponent needs one more spell to kill you.
2. Suppression Field
The only decks Field is weak against are Tendrils Combo and Thresh. Most Thresh decks I've seen lately run maindeck Top/Balance so Field is at least marginally useful later in the game slowing down Top.
Against everything else there are always things to stop. Just to name a few: Survival, Deed, Manlands, Isochrons Scepter, Ravager, Cycling Lands, Fetchlands, Aether Vial, Jitte and other Equipments.
The only thing that stopped me from playing Fields maindeck so far was that I couldn't find room. That and Factories are just amazing too but more on that later.
3. Smokestack
Personally I don't like going down to 3 because the only deck you don't want to see them against is Goblins.
Stax has 8 cards in the whole deck that don't work well with its namesake, Geddons and Mox Diamonds. Aside from these every single card is a permanent that can be cast at 4 mana so you won't ever have a problem to keep the Stack at 1. Thanks to Flagstones and God's Eye you can even ramp it to 2 for some time until Crucible arrives. With Crucible you should only stay at 1 counter if your opponent has no or almost no permanents in play.
4. God's Eye, Gate to the Reikai
Imho only an option if you run MD Suppression Fields. It is useful no doubt but it's also just a weak card in general. You need to resolve Armageddon or Smokestack for it to be more than a worse than basic land and even if you resolve Smokestack or Armageddon all you get is a 1/1 token.
It has bad synergy with Tabernacle effects too but this is minor I think.
5. Tabernacle
Singleton Tabernacle has won me some games so far but about half the time I wished it was another basic Plains. I'll continue to run 1 but I think 2 put an unnecessary strain on you manabase.
6. Horizon Canopy
Canopy was bad against Goblins during my testing. The pain you take from its manaability is not a big problem. IIrc I didn't cycle it very often without a Crucible but with Crucible Canopy is amazing in this deck.
I think I'll go back to test it more now that Goblins is on the decline.
7. Mishra's Factory
This card is just rock solid. No more no less. You will never regret having some of them in your deck during a tourney. Most importantly they speed up your clock more than Blinkmoth Nexus or God's Eye ever could. They can block and trade with lots of creatures at a minimal mana investment. The fact that their pump ability is free makes them superior to Nexus in this deck. Nexus can chumpblock fliers but aside from Fairie Stompy I don't see where this is relevant.
A single Factory can trade with a threshed Nimble Mongoose. 2 Factories plus another land allow you to trade with a Loxodon Hierarch or Ravenous Baloth.
Of course as lolosoon already mentioned Factory is also uncounterable and Tabernacle-proof.
8.There were no top 8 play-offs, just 5 rounds of swiss with tiebreakers deciding final standings. I know that he played against a "Lands!" deck (with Pernicious Deed) and won but not much else.Have you got a list of the decks Harald encounterd through top8 ?! It could explain a lot of his choices. (The lone Ghost Quarter for exemple, but mainly the Suppression Field MD presence...)
"Anybody want some . . . toast?" —Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
Dont compair Tabernacle with Plains.
See it as a spell with 0cc split second and the drawback from Rock Jockey
“Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.
You are right and I should add that Tabernacle always occupies a spell-slot in my lists however what I wanted to say was that sometimes I'd rather have another land in that slot (i.e. going from 24 manaproducing lands + Tabernacle to 25 manaproducing lands).
"Anybody want some . . . toast?" —Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
I've done some testing on a 3-of Serum Powder MD.
Testing a list that comprises the stax core + some common additions, I came to the conclusion that my (must-) mulligan rate was comparably high, partly due to the lack of cantrips. I also believe that each starting hand should ideally include either 3 lands plus 1 Mox Diamond or 2 lands (inluding City of Traitors or Ancient Tomb) grating you 3 mana on turn 2 for one of your bombs.
So Serum Powder has made my hands more consistent. Concerning the mid-game it may not be a topdeck, however it is never a dead draw either. It has a positive synergy with armageddon/ravages of war and its mana curve sits right within the trinisphere spectrum.
I'm well aware of its downsides too. Using Serum Powder pre turn 1 gives your opponent an edge considering his strategy - however, this disadvantage only really goes for round one of a mid-sized tournament - afterwards anyone will know you're the stax-dude anyway.
As I realized later, the inclusion of Serum Powder grants you a more versatile SB, making 2-ofs or 3-ofs potential 5-ofs or 6-ofs. This seriously made me consider LotV (Obv. golden against *****, Dredge, Breakfast etc..). As a 2-of or 3-of it doesn't take up too much SB space while the chances of having it in your starting hand are virtually higher than running a playset without Serum Powders.
Currently my Serum Powder(ed) SB looks something like this:
2 LotV
1 Pulse of the Fields
2 Defense Grid
2 Supression Field
1 Exalted Angel
2 Rule of Law
1 Pithing Neelde
1 Duskrider Peregrine
3 Winter Orb (Meta call)
Let me know what you think....
Sidenote:
What are your opinions on...
Static Orb
Rings of Brighthearth
Something is definally wrong with playing only 2 Leyline of the Void. You should either play zero or 4 copies of it.
Ring of Breathheath is only activated abilities right? What activated abilities do you intend on copying?
Serum Powder is an interesting addition. I've noticed the main problem with this deck is that if offers virtually no deck manipulation, tutor, cantrip, draw, etc etc. The only -actual- deck manipulation you get is plains thinning via flagstones. If you choose to run Horizon Canopy, that can help with cantripping as well, but it takes up significant resources to do so (losing a land, for instance, and requiring Crucible of Worlds to truly make the card good). I'd like to see if anyone else has an opinion on engines that the deck could use to get more consistent draws (like Serum Powder) or help cycle through the deck faster. As awesome as the deck plays out, more than half the time it loses because of terrible draws and/or topdecking.
Bottled Cloister.
Im pretty sure only a hand full of you have tried it if that. Its always working its way into my sb. Its great against control decks that you need the card advantage against and it does wonders against Specters and Hymns as well. Its a great card, dont let it fool you. I find them most usefull to sb in against non aggro when you can take out Prisons ect.
Now playing real formats.
You do this even when you know your opponents are playing some form of artifact destruction or bounce right?
Sometimes yes. There arent many decks that are packing real artifact hate at all right now. You might see a couple disenchants out of Landstill or 2-3 grip from Thresh.
I generally wont cast it until I've played all the 'real' cards out of my hand already. Leaving not much to lose if Cloister does go down. Against black decks drop it as soon as possible to avoid getting your hand raped. Only Deadguy has Vindicate.
Now playing real formats.
You're kidding, right? I bet if you tallied all the decklists ever played in the last three months, Krosan Grip would be the #1 most sideboarded card. It's even more common than Goyf in decks that run Green.
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Just play it out though. You wont be dropping it till your done playing all the other bombs in your hand so chances are your oppoent is gonna Grip one of those cards before getting buried in virtual card advantage from things like Chalice or Crucible. They usually wont have an answer to Cloister and it pulls you back into the game. You'll usually immediately cast what you draw so your not gonna lose much if they do blow it up. Just play it smart.
I think in the pages and pages of stax discussion this has come up dozens of times and Ive said the same thing each time.
Now playing real formats.
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I'm quite disappointed with engineered explosives, and realize that although versatile... Its not easy to ramp it up to 2 always...
Powder kegs are good , but are slower than EE...
At times I just wanted plain old wrath of god and leave the kegs and EE's to the sideboard...
I was wondering if anyone has tested Oblivion ring intensively?
Is it versatile? does it really help with fast aggro(since this slot used to be wrath of god in the original build)?
Kegs have been really good for me. The amount of turns it takes isn't usually an issue in this deck, since you can stall your opponent out until you're ready to pop it. I've also found it to be more versatile than EE since you can adjust it as needed to hit a wider range of casting costs. For example, dropping it early against something like Threshold and keeping it at 1 will hit any Geese that they drop, but you can also ramp it up to 2 and take out a Goyf as needed.
Oblivion Ring is awesome. It's alright against fast aggro (Chalice, Trinisphere, and Ghostly Prison are often better), but it can be relevant in slowing down their clock by taking out Tarmogoyfs or Jittes. It gives the deck some extremely versatile spot removal, which it's been sorely lacking, allowing the deck to slow down opponents even more until you can just lock them out and win.
This is the list I took to the Mana Leak day 2.
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitor
2 Crytal Vein
1 Wasteland
4 Flagstones of Trokair
6 Plains
4 Mishras Factory
4 Mox Diamond
1 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Magus of the Tabernacle
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Ghostly Prison
4 Armageddon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
3 Smokestack
4 Crucible of the Worlds
2 Engineered Explosives
SB
1 Wasteland
3 Glowrider
2 Sphere of Law
3 Winter Orb
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Aura of Silence
3 Pithing Needle
Round One
Matt playing Breakfast
Matt beats me everytime we play which is always round one. He normally plays Thresh so this time Im excited to see him. I didnt take any notes for game one but I remember casting a Chalice for one turn one and had it resolve. He ends up playing a Lim Duals and pays a bunch of life to find an echoing truth. I also have 2x Trinispheres and a Ghostly Prison out. To my surprise he bounces the Chalice. He mustve had combo parts in hand (needing to therapy them). He takes his turn and taps out to play a Shaman en Kor. On my turn I drop a Chalice for two. He scoops.
Game two I drop something like 3sphere or Chalice and he Forces it. I drop a couple more cards and he plays Deed. I dont have an O ring for it and he nukes my board. At this point I geddon him and he recovers enough to drop goyf x2 and kill me with them.
Game three goes similar to game two. I get wiped by deed and he wins through combo. I remember making some kind of mistake this game since I let him drop one combo guy then another the next turn. I shouldve Geddoned or something.
0-1, 1-2
Round Two Alix Hatfield playing Black Thresh
Im really hoping hes not playing Breakfast too, although its a decent matchup I dont have Suppression Fields or Tormods Crypt today.
He opens with a Ponder then turn two Thoughtsieze. I dont remember what he takes but it didnt matter very much as I replace my play with Trinisphere. He has no answer to it and I make short work of him from there. I get half a dozen lock pieces down from there before he scoops to Magus.
Game two he plays a Mongoose and I play an explosives for one. He plays 3-4 Ponders and smacks me for 1-3 a turn while I let explosives sit there. I figure there are more geese were that comes from and I think I was right. I eventually nuke his goose Geddon a couple times, I play CotV I think for two and I have double Ghostly Prison. I see a Sea Drake get flashed about but he didnt play it. He wouldve been pretty sad to get it ORinged.
1-1, 3-2
Round Three
Some guy who wasnt Bryant playing TES
I have no idea what hes playing but I keep a hand with turn one Chalice turn two 3sphere. I drop a mox and city of traitors into a Chalice. He plays a City of Brass and I play a 3sphere. He plays another City, rfg's a SSG and pays 3 for a Chrome Mox. On my turn I Oring the mox. LOL. It ends after I geddon him with Crucible and 3sphere out.
Game two he plays nothing but a land turn one. All I needed was one turn.
On my turn one I drop an Ancient Tomb and Mox up a Glowrider. Cant Shattering Spree that. I get him to 6 before I play a Magus and finally see a factory. Along the way I drop Chalice, 3sphere, Geddon, While he Shattering Sprees pointlessly.
2-1, 5-2
Round 4 Ewokslayer playing Survival
I dont remember too much from these games. He plays Magus of the Moon and I kinda diddle myself with Crucible and other nonsense cards. I get Smokestack going but need to ramp it to two so I wouldnt die to wiener beats. He plays BoP's and Witnesses to keep perms out long enough to kill me.
Game two I have a really amazing hand. I play a turn one Crucible, he plays a BoP. Turn two I have the choice to play an Aura of Silence or Smokestack. I know Im fucked if SotF gets online so I play Aura. He drops Magus on his turn. I play the Smokestack. He basically does the same as the last game and drops goyfs and witnesses till I need to ramp stacks to two. It comes down to me at one life and two smokestacks out. One at 2 one at 1. I have a magus out. He takes his turn, pays for his guys, moves a +1/+1 counter from his Spike Feeder to his BoP and sacs the rest of his board. I die to the bird. That throws off the rest of the day for me.
2-2, 5-4
Round 5 Brandon playing 4c Thresh.
This should be a really good game for me but he seems to have answers for everything. Im manascrewed and need to walk into a Daze, he gets crazy goyfs out and Needles Engineered Explosives. I have one in hand I didnt get to drop yet and drew into the only other dead card in the deck (EE).
Game two he forces my turn one Crucible which wouldve let my 3x Factories go all the way. I still beat him down to 1 with them Oringing an Isochron Scepter imprinted with AK.
Game three I play a Winter Orb which helps me out but he Forces a key Smokestackand I have nothing else to play for turns. He needles Wasteland and plays a Goyf. He kills me with it while I draw nothing. When I do he Ancient Grudges it. I cant believe I lose this matchup when its so good for me already. He even kept Daze and COUNTERBALANCE in against me. WTF?!?!
2-3, 5-6
Round Six Jason playing W/U Landstill.
Game one lasts about 30 minutes. I play a turn one Chalice and then we trade threats for counterspells for almost forever I get a Crucible out and so does he. We clash Wastelands and Factories for a long time till I OblivionRing his Crucible and I gain tons of advantage over the few next turns.
Game two I get completely mana screwed and he plays a Meddling Mage naming Smokestack. My next draw is Smokestack. He kills me with the mage.
Game three I get something Forced, something Counterspelled. Then he plays 3 mages one turn after another naming Trinisphere, Smokestack, and Armageddon. I draw all these cards the freakin turns after he names them. Its like he had psychic powers or something.
He's a nice guy, he gives me one of the three packs he wins in top16.
2-4, 6-8
Landstill and Survival are still really bad matchups for the deck. Aside from that I just couldnt draw a Magus or Smokestack when I had people locked down for turns and turns. Oblivion Ring was amazing. The only changes I would make to the deck would probably be incorperating Wrath of God back to the maindeck or sideboard. I pretty much lost to goyfs all day.
Now playing real formats.
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