[OLD] UGr Threshold

[Adan]

That's what I meant, the list I posted up there T8ed at least 4 times here in germany.
The first time was when kimberley was still active. He won a small tournament (14 people) with it, but at that time there were no tarmogoyfs and magma Jet was still played.
Then, some months later, Tim Kahlmeyer won a tournament (21 people) with it, playing Counterspells and Jets.

The list up there is the latest list that's being played in Germany. And I played against Oddball and his UGR on the German Legacy Open with Baseruption. Burning Tree Shaman and Vedalken Shackles were the cards that fucked me up the most, because he made pressure very early and then dropped BTS, which made the things Tao mentioned impossible.

His friend Frederic T8ed with a similar List (instead of Ponder, Oddball played Portent and Frederic played Serum Visions because Lorwyn wasn't out at that time and so on).

Ah, and even the new UGR Build with Wasteland-Stifle or Quirion Dryads don't run Counterbalance. Ah, hell, NQGrw is also played quite much here in Germany, with the old-school Accumulated Knowledges and Isochron Scepter.
(GenCon Top32, Rich Shay, that kind of build).

They all don't play Counterbalance but are still sucessfull.

@kabal:

Actually, the Counterspell-Slot is the Slot that you can change like wou want.
You can play Repeals and the 4th Daze, you can play a Disrupting Shoal and 2 Repeal.You can play 3 Counterspells or Stifle. Whatever.
The 3 Magma Jets were replaced by the 2 vedalken Shackles and the 17th Land and it should remain in that way.

But in the past I also tested Counterbalance in the slot of Counterspell.
Without Top, you are forced to play Magma Jet again and it sucks like hell.

Since that build is supposed to be played more aggressiveley like the Wasteland-Stifle-Build (that thing David Caplan T8ed), but not with the role to slow down the opponent, but damage racing him. And it does it's job well.

Of course there is a list with Counterbalance, but it's nearly the same thing like in our discussion about controlish NQG.

//Lands 16
4x Polluted Delta
3x Flooded Strand
4x Tropical Island
4x Volcanic Island
1x Island

//Creatures 10
4x Nimble Mongoose
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Sea Drake

//Spells 34
4x Fire/Ice
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Predict
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
2x Counterbalance
2x Sensei’s Divining Top
2x Repeal

Sideboard
2x Pithing Needle
2x Pyroclasm
3x Krosan Grip
2x Vedalken Shackles
3x Winter Orb
3x Blue Elemental Blast

That build is not frequently played here in Germany since Sea Drakes are fucking expansive. But he's quite good, I think he was also played in teh past. He receives a "can't be sworded/bolted" through Counterbalance and does damage through Tarmogoyf thanks to his evasion ability.
But the thing is, that this list can't be "tempo" like the list I posted above because of the Counterbalance Engine, since Counterbalance only fullfills a "controlish" role, but Counterbalance itself can't handle threats that already have been played and it also doesn't kill the opponent directly.
So you need to play Repeal to have a out against random Enchantments like Confinement, Blood Moon (you also have SB BEB), Worship and so on.

But I still like the BTS-Build, because it sometimes can ignore opposing Tarmogoyfs, because iceing, repealing or stealing them with Shackles is way more fun. So that "ram Goyf into Goyf" is not necessary anymore. I would just do that in emergencies.
BTS is a additional undercosted beater which makes CB-Engine and opposing Fetchlands suck. It's definitley better than Serendib Efreet because he still does less damage to you than Serendib Efreet would.

[Citrus-God]

I see so many things wrong with that list. But frankly, it seems that the Americans and the Germans are on a different page on UGR Hatfield, apparently, since like... the arguments started.

Differences from the American list and the German one... actually, it's more like the Hatfield list and this list... Now for the differences...

Maindeck:

Burn Cards; The Hatfields were never fans of more than 4 Maindeck Burn cards. They didnt want to win damage races with dead cards, they wanted efficiency in the form of versatile removal and allow it to play Midgame against certain creature decks.

Fliers: Sea Drakes... I asked Dom from Team NoVA about it a long time ago. He was very into it, and neither were the Hatfields after GP Philly.

But if you asked the for one of the reasons why people play Dragon, many people will say that Dragon is one of the biggest reasons to play UGR. And Sea Drake doesnt trade with Enforcer. At least Dragon can.

Basic Forest: We always had the Basic Forest. It wasnt a land really, but just a way to get around Wasteland and Back to Basics and stuff. I know Mad Zur dislikes the idea of it being a land, because 16 Blue Sources is all you need.

3 SDT, 3-4 Counterbalances: You guys played a 2/2 split. Everybody who ran Maindecked Counterbalances ran a 3/3-4 split from what I recall in the US.

Repeal + Fire // Ice: Don't get me wrong, but most of us who played the Hatfield philosophy before Top was in the deck was this following theory;

1. Chain cantrips to find actual solutions to answer before and after. Repeal and Fire // Ice can be cycled, but you draw into trash. Fire // Ice may be able pitch to FoW and kill low-quality creatures, but it's trash because you dont need that much removal or Burn within the game. You're a control deck, and Counters and such is what allows you to keep a fair game against most decks. This might be why you didnt do as well with UGR Controllish Threshold.

Before Top was ran, it chained from cantrip to cantrip to find it's answers. That was why it ran 16 cantrips.

2. Card Quality first, always. It's Fire // Ice or Lightning Bolt. They both suck in the mirror, so just pick a set and move on. You can double Burn all you want, but part of the reason why it wasnt that great for you guys in the first place was because instead of played Counterbalance and winning, you're being cute tapping down Goyfs and Repealing them. Counterbalance and Top are here because their quality is strong enough to win you the game. So just cut them in favor of better cards like, more Counterbalances, another Top, and more Shackles. Even if you dislike Drake, cut them for Shackles.


And also, flier needs to be changed and Sideboard needs work.

One of the reasons why I stopped playing UGW was because of how much Hydroblast sucks... Pyroclasm was always the card I liked against Goblins because you can stabilize off one and chain into the next via Top/Cantrips.

I wouldnt mind the fact you keep that build, but you should really give Pyroclasm more credit. Even though Kimberly was a major fan of BEB in Ur Landstill, he was able to pull it off because he has more draw than of a clock, whereas, we have more of a clock than a draw. Be chain into them better, and still be able to maintain threats on the board and apply pressure which buys us time for the next one. While playing Landstill, you're always under pressure for playing the control deck.

[Adan]

The Hatfields, the Hatfields, the Hatfields. C'mon, like those brothers decide what Thresh is going to be played there in the US. I know they have a clue about Threshold, but there's still something I don't agree with.

I also never said that the list up there is good. I sucks. But I just wanted to show you how a UGR with Counterbalance WOULD look like. UGW with Counterbalance has got much more of an allrounder, that's what I'm saying.

I never played the UGR Hatfield version because exchanging red for white makes the maindeck strictly better. SO if I want to play with Counterbalance and a fat beater, I will definitley play UGW, not UGR.

Ah, by the way, you was always talking about the CB-Engine.
I think there is one important point you are overlooking. I also did first, until I realized it when I lost against Oddball on the German Open. He also told me my fault.

The first thing is, that you have to be the first who does some pressure in the mirrormatch. The one who does more pressure wins the game.
Counterbalance does not make any pressure. And here's also the point where the most important thing comes: Timing.

If I drop a 1st Turn Mongoose followed by a 2nd Turn Tarmogoyf, what does the Counterbalance Engine do against it? Nothing. The Engine as a whole thing also needs 3 turns to work fine. You have it on teh table after 2 Turns. In these 2 turns, you can still play the wrong role. You got the Engine, but no critters. And the actual gamewinning cards will still come through it.
Burning Tree Shaman, Mystic Enforcer, Fledgling Dragon, Vedalken Shackles, Engineered Explosives, Force of Will, even Repeal won't be harmed by Counterbalance.

That would be the scenario when you are affixed to get the stupid engine together, I did the same fault.
This is the reason why Counterbalance WON'T win the mirrormatch so easily.

And that's the reason why I also didn't like your point about Blood Moon in the Sb of UGR, because he needs a similar preparation (fetching the Basiclands together and get the right timing to drop it).

Timing is such a fucking important criteria to which no one pays attention. That's why some people still lose to Goblins or have different Matchup Analysis. The players who know what they must to will win, because they know what role they have to play against which deck.

That is also the reason why kimberley, Tao and me didn't play Pyroclasm in teh Sideboard of UR Landstill. The GOOD Goblin players never overextend. they will start nagging you to death with a maximum of 3 Goblins, because these 3 Goblins are enough. If you wipe them away with Pyroclasm he will just play 3 new ones. The thing is also that you have to handle Pieldrivers, Warchiefs and Ringleaders. The rest is nearly unimportant.
Pyroclasm can kill 1 Million of Goblins, no doubt, but Goblin players won't overextend if they know they will face Pyroclasm. They will just do it if they know they can give you the final blow.

[kabal]

The Hatfields, the Hatfields, the Hatfields. C'mon, like those brothers decide what Thresh is going to be played there in the US. I know they have a clue about Threshold, but there's still something I don't agree with.

Amen...You would think that they invented the archetype.

I never played the UGR Hatfield version because exchanging red for white makes the maindeck strictly better. SO if I want to play with Counterbalance and a fat beater, I will definitley play UGW, not UGR.

QFT.

[Obfuscate Freely]

If you guys are having trouble winning mirror matches after resolving CounterTop, you are doing something wrong.

I really can't stress this enough. Since you both have access to the same threats, matching (and surpassing) your opponent's board is pretty easy when you have nearly complete control over what spells will resolve for the rest of the game.

[T is for TOOL]

The Hatfields, the Hatfields, the Hatfields. C'mon, like those brothers decide what Thresh is going to be played there in the US. I know they have a clue about Threshold, but there's still something I don't agree with.

I also never said that the list up there is good. I sucks. But I just wanted to show you how a UGR with Counterbalance WOULD look like. UGW with Counterbalance has got much more of an allrounder, that's what I'm saying.

The Hatfields (among others), have developed and innovated Legacy Threshold for years, before it was even a blip on the Legacy radar. They've also been exteremely successful in piloting the deck to many T8 finishes since then in the few big American Legacy tournaments that have been held. Many posters on the Source are more familiar with their name and their association to the deck, so it shouldn't seem unreasonable that those posters give more weight to the Hatfield's arguments. I'm sure that you know some excellent German Threshold players and that you likewise hold their opinion in higher regard. This is not a conscious act of ill-will towards German deck design. It's simply an unfortunate consequence of having two Legacy metagames separated by over 3,000 miles of ocean.

I never played the UGR Hatfield version because exchanging red for white makes the maindeck strictly better. SO if I want to play with Counterbalance and a fat beater, I will definitley play UGW, not UGR.

Depending on the metagame, a heavy Goblin metagame for example, the UWG maindeck advantage over URG is nullified. Both colors function nearly identically against Goblins pre-board because both Lightning Bolts and Swords to Plowshares answer any relevant goblin and both Dragon and Enforcer serve a similar function as evasive finishers. The advantage of the red splash was that it had access to Pyroclasm, among other cards, which gave it a better post-SB goblin matchup. If two decks have identical functioning MDs in a metagame, then it is logical to choose the deck with stronger SB options.

The first thing is, that you have to be the first who does some pressure in the mirrormatch. The one who does more pressure wins the game. Counterbalance does not make any pressure.

I disagree with this assertion. It would be more correct to say that in the mirror, the winner is determined by whoever resolves an unanswered threat. Counterbalance is an exteremely dangerous threat in the mirror because it effectively nullifies your opponent's strategy of resolving spells.

And the actual gamewinning cards will still come through it.
Burning Tree Shaman, Mystic Enforcer, Fledgling Dragon, Vedalken Shackles, Engineered Explosives, Force of Will, even Repeal won't be harmed by Counterbalance.

I'd like to keep from devolving into petty arguments about hypothetical worst case hand scenarios, remember that you can always simply cast a counterspell or removal and use the Counterbalance to protect your counter.

If I drop a 1st Turn Mongoose followed by a 2nd Turn Tarmogoyf, what does the Counterbalance Engine do against it? Nothing. The Engine as a whole thing also needs 3 turns to work fine. You have it on teh table after 2 Turns. In these 2 turns, you can still play the wrong role. You got the Engine, but no critters.

That would be the scenario when you are affixed to get the stupid engine together, I did the same fault.
This is the reason why Counterbalance WON'T win the mirrormatch so easily.

Threshold scenarios are rarely useful to illustrate points because there are far too many unknowns that need to be taken into account in any given situation. If you set-up a scenario correctly, you can make any card be awful. More importantly, even if the scenario correctly demonstrates the weakness of the Counterbalance play, that doesn't invalidate the Counterbalance strategy. In your example, a simple removal spell on the Goyf followed up with a Counterbalance is extremely strong. Likewise countering the Goyf and then playing Counterbalance is strong. A single Goyf on your side would stall both the opposing Goose and Goyf as well. Depending on the strength of both you and your opponent's hands, simply dropping Counterbalance turn 2 and digging for answers can win the game as well. If you are holding a hand without any creatures, countermagic, or removal, it might be better to simply mulligan.

Timing is such a fucking important criteria to which no one pays attention. That's why some people still lose to Goblins or have different Matchup Analysis. The players who know what they must to will win, because they know what role they have to play against which deck.

Agreed. Many players lose because of play mistakes and bad decisions caused by a misassignment of the role of their deck.

[aTn]

T is for TOOL said: Depending on the metagame, a heavy Goblin metagame for example, the UWG maindeck advantage over URG is nullified. Both colors function nearly identically against Goblins pre-board because both Lightning Bolts and Swords to Plowshares answer any relevant goblin and both Dragon and Enforcer serve a similar function as evasive finishers. The advantage of the red splash was that it had access to Pyroclasm, among other cards, which gave it a better post-SB goblin matchup. If two decks have identical functioning MDs in a metagame, then it is logical to choose the deck with stronger SB options.

I totally agree. Also, pre-board vs. Goblins, I prefer UGR because of the fact that Bolt and Fire/Ice can remove opposing Goblins without slowing down your clock (opponent gaining life from StoP). They also (obviously) give an alternate way to kill when Dragon/Enforcer isn't on the board and Goblins stall the ground (for example when SGC resolves).

Adan, I agree that Tivadar's Crusade has the same net effect as Pyroclasm, but it costs 1WW and that's often annoying when facing Ports and Wastelands.

I agree that Pyroclasm (alone) doesn't get rid of opposing Goyfs. From testing UGR-Threshold against "RG-Goblins splash Goyfs", it never was a problem. It destroys all their creatures except the Goyfs. You have 3-4 Fire/Ice and 4 Bolts to deal with their Goyfs (which is not that hard when you have guys on your side, which tends to happen).

[raharu]

[QUOTE=T is for TOOL;175630]

The advantage of the red splash was that it had access to Pyroclasm, among other cards, which gave it a better post-SB goblin matchup.

What? I see alot of MD Pyroclasm from the thresh I play against. If no-one else runs it MD, I think it warants serious consideration because it wipes away the field for so many decks in the meta and allows you to make better use of your burn ('Clasm > Bolt to get rid of a board full of Fish and thier big wincon since they droped Mother of Runes from the deck, not to mention that 'Clasm + Bolt generally kills 'Goyf).

[aTn]

raharu, MD Pyroclasm has been suggested and played before. As you said, it's a metagame call. Maybe it's relevant where you play, but it is not that hot where I play, where the mirror is frequent (and from the decklists in this thread, you can see it wasn't very often that people needed to MD Pyroclasm). I'd see it as a good call in a Goblins/Small-Sized aggro infested meta.

[FredMaster]

Also consider the effect on Combo's Goblin Tokens. I wouldn't even mention it as a sideboard card tho.

[kicks_422]

Hell, it's a personal preference to what you run in the MD. There's no optimal build for this deck since it's so versatile, and you can adapt it to what you expect to see. Running CB-Top or not depends on the meta and personal playstyle, not "which is better".

Frankly, the deck concept's so powerful that I'm using a Legacy-legal version in Vintage - and OWNING with it.

[donkyranger]

I have had been wondering this for quite a while now and I dont really want to read 43 plus pages to find it, so what is the deal with dryad in this deck? I personally like it but just cause I like the card Pigmy Hippo doesn't mean it should be played.

[kicks_422]

It's a personal preference, really. I've seen some run a 4 Mongeese, 4 Goyf, 4 Dryad creature base with 8 burn spells into a much more aggro route. It's a fine 3rd option behind Mongeese and Goyf.

Personally, I like Trygon Predator. It helps so much against lots of randomness.

[etrigan]

Dryad make you play a more aggressive game. To get full effect, you have to drop it early, and then play a bunch of spells in the upcoming turns. Sometimes, you just want to slowroll, and drop your guy when it's time to win.

Personally, I like Werebear as my third green man.

[Happy Gilmore]

My personal oppinion is that Dryad requires too much of an investment. Something about being forced to cast spells to make her bigger does not sit right with me. I like that Bear/Goose/Tarmogoyf come into play big.

[kabal]

I like that Bear/Goose/Tarmogoyf come into play big.

That is the creature configuration I found works the best. I'm playing 4/4/3 with bear in the last slot. What does your cantrip base look like? I'm playing BS/Ponder/MN all set all 4. What the hell, here is what my current build looks like.

// Lands
1 Forest
1 Island
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
3 Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Werebear

// Spells
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
4 Daze
3 Fire/Ice
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Mental Note
3 Stifle
4 Ponder

[aTn]

I agree with Happy, Dryad needs to be fed and it's a pain.

I've been testing Goyf/Goose and Goyf/Goose/Bear and I like these two creature configurations equally (I usually add the Bear when aggro is rampant).

As for the cantrips, I really like Brainstorm/Ponder/Predict with either creature configuration.

[Citrus-God]

Goblins

This matchup is very close, and whether or not it is favorable may depend on your build. Your best tools for stabilizing are huge creatures, so staving off death until you can get some of those in play is your first concern. Lackey shouldn’t be difficult to stop, but Vial can be problematic. Needle helps tremendously here, and thankfully Vial gives you a little bit of time to find the answer before it can drop any must-counters. Once you do establish a stalemate between their guys and yours, you’ll eventually need to be able to start swinging with enough fat on defense to prevent any alpha strikes, and you’ll be at a noticably reduced life total. This means you need to find at least two creatures and that you need have answers to an immediate threat the opponent could play. Taking care of Warchief is a priority for your burn, but you’ll want to save counters for Ringleader and Siege-Gang if you can (this is where Vial can really kill you). If all goes well (which isn’t easy because you need the correct balance of creatures, removal, and counters), they should be unable to attack without losing guys while you are free to swing in with something that they can’t kill without throwing away multiple creatures. Gempalm can be problematic in this situation; extra Needles can name it and you’ll want Mongooses on defense to be safe.

Sideboarding is difficult in this match; I favor taking out Dragon because it takes a while to come online. Furthermore, because you’ll be bringing in Pyroclasm, evasion is less necessary. Taking out draw is an option, but dangerous. Being able to chain cantrips is even more important in game two, not only because you have Pyroclasm to dig for, but also because you’re likely to see Crypt and you want to be able to recover quickly.

Your basic strategy is the same, but Pyroclasm can either stabilize by itself or turn a creature stalemate into a dominant board position. The opponent may try to cut you off of red mana, but since you only need one, it should not be difficult to play around. If you’re worried, you can often hold a Volcanic Island in hand until you need it. Once again, make sure to keep the draw engine running; dig for those Pyroclasms and don’t lose to Crypt.

Mad Zur wrote this. This is what I believe in most when playing Threshold of any kinda Pre-Board. No matter how great the hands you keep and the decisions you make, you're more prone to make more mistakes than the Goblin player, simply because Goblins provides less options for the player whereas the Threshold player has much more options to consider.

"Should I dig for Pyroclasm?"
"Should I counter Matron? If I let it resolve, will be go for board dominance in the form of Gempalm or SCG, card advantage (Ringleader)?, or is he going to race (Piledriver, Fanatic)?

[Ragnarok]

Maybe it is because I haven't read all of the post is in this topic. But I haven't seen anyone complaining about the biggest problem threshold has in my opinion. The lack of creatures with evasion. I have tested, BTS and Dryad (Besides 4 Goyf and 4 Goose ofcourse). I have never tested Werebear actually but I don't think it is a very great addition. They both have proven to function well, but it wasn't good enough. Dryad could become a big creature if played early game, but drawing it late game was a pain in the ass. BTS was maybe even worse, it's a pretty nice card though, his toughness was 1 bigger then a thresht mongoose and it's ability wasn't as good as I thought it would be. In my opinion Threshold needs a game winner mainboard besides Goyf. So after discussing this with some teammates of mine I decide to test Fledgling Dragon (besides, the white splash plays mystic enforcer), it may be a card wich is played alot in older UGr builds, but I must say since I play Fledgling Dragon I've won games I couldn't win without it. I haven't tested it alot but I won a small tournament last friday with my current list. I played against, Meathooks 1-0, UGw Threshold 2-0 and Random Elf.deck 2-1. I really like to know what your opinion is about this card.

[kabal]

So after discussing this with some teammates of mine I decide to test Fledgling Dragon...

Have you given Serendib Efreet a try? No need for Threshold, survives bolt and is blue. Unfortunately its side effect is fairly is pretty bad.