[OLD] UGr Threshold

[Adan]

Threshold without Counterbalance against Threshold with Counterbalance isn't even a game. I don't see why this is hard to understand.

Because you are wrong?! I explained it over 3 posts why.

The engine needs at least 3 turns to work properly. 3 Turns in which the other guy can play: Mongoose, Goyf, Bolt, Predict the top card away. Or something like that (I did that btw. It was very funny). And that only if we act on the assumption that we play: 1st Turn SDT, 2nd Turn Counterbalance.

And Counterbalance still won't prevent the gamewinning cards such as BTS, Force of Will, Vedalken Shackles and Repeal. BTS also makes the Engine suck like hell. Being affixed to play out the Counterbalance engine can give the opponent a double-timewalk, because the timing then is wrong. The thing is that Counterbalance doesn't handle the stuff that's already on the board.

Counterbalance is never INSANELY good in, neither in the earlygame nor in the midgame as a stabilizer. Of course it disrupts the the opponents actions very well, but playing Counterbalance does absolutley no pressure. And pressure is the key to win the mirrormatch, not the Counterbalance Engine.

Or why do you think that NQGr does so well here in Germany? Because it's very strong against Baseruption, and it's wins even against the Counterbalance Engine.

Of course th Engine look insanely strong against the mirrormatch, but practical it's a matter of timing and pressure.

[Citrus-God]

But what do you want to express with that sentence? Who plays EtW against TES or Belcher? O.o

I had two hours of sleep that day, so I was bound to make mistakes while typing. What I meant to say was, "EE plays the same role as Pyroclasm against EtW."


As for the Tempo versions, I'm sure you guys adapted the 3c Theory off Baseruption so you guys can outplay Counterbalance, right? It just seems to make sense considering the fact you run BTS and Shackles.

[aTn]

I think that it's a fairly moot point to argue over. But I have to thank you for wasting your time by pointing out that there is an obvious relation to game state and player skill. I was operating under the assumption that all Magic players are mindless drones with preprogrammed responses to each spell.

Thanks for the dose of sarcasm, it really wasn't needed. Way to go in not understanding my point and taking it all too personal. Good job ! Keep up the false assertions based solely on looking at decklists.

Originally Posted by Kyachi:
Threshold without Counterbalance against Threshold with Counterbalance isn't even a game. I don't see why this is hard to understand.

This is far from being obvious (when you stop staring at Counterbalance and start thinking about it for more than 3 seconds); it's simply not true in general. As Adan said, it depends when CB hits the board, what's on the board when it resolves, post-board or pre-board, Needle MD ?, there are ways to get out of CB-Top lock (I once baited CB with Brainstorm and used Predict to flush the top card of my opponent and finally resolved Needle on Top, okay that's not a play I do often).

Again, it sounds like you just looked at the decklists, read the wording of Counterbalance and made your conclusion, that is, it sounds like you haven't playtested much. This is about as much time I'll be wasting on your comments, thanks for the tip.

[Kyachi]

Thanks for the dose of sarcasm, it really wasn't needed. Way to go in not understanding my point and taking it all too personal. Good job ! Keep up the false assertions based solely on looking at decklists.

I'm not. Any time that I've played Threshold in a tournament, or watched games with Threshold, the player who has CB first tends to win. I can't speak for the German metagame, and I sincerely don't give a damn about what goes on in a country half way around the world with a metagame I'll never play in. I'm speaking from my experience on paper and online.

Further, in my other experience, I used to play almost the exact same version of Adan's list and I found that, guess what, it tended to lose to Counterbalance.

I once baited CB with Brainstorm and used Predict to flush the top card of my opponent and finally resolved Needle on Top, okay that's not a play I do often

As a CB player, worrying about a BS is hardly a matter of importance. When the other player has several cards in hand and I have only one mana available to top, countering cantrips is a little unneeded. That's just bad playing on behalf of your opponent. Further, even if you do get rid of the card on top, why wouldn't the CB player just draw off the Top and counter Needle? And even if they didn't do that, it's still a crap shoot to not hit a 1cc card.

And to bite on my ego, I'm sorry for being rude and sarcastic.

The engine needs at least 3 turns to work properly. 3 Turns in which the other guy can play: Mongoose, Goyf, Bolt, Predict the top card away. Or something like that (I did that btw. It was very funny). And that only if we act on the assumption that we play: 1st Turn SDT, 2nd Turn Counterbalance.

Unbelievably untrue. That works if the CB-less player is on the play and only if the blind CB doesn't hit any of the 2cc cards in the deck (4 Daze, 4 Tarmogoyf, 4 Predict, 2 other Counterbalance). Also, from that point on, to resolve their own threats, the CB player can protect them from your removal and your counter with CB, or the counter that he has saved from not having to waste them on the stuff that CB does counter.

And Counterbalance still won't prevent the gamewinning cards such as BTS, Force of Will, Vedalken Shackles and Repeal

It has as much chance for it to hit your FoW as you have for drawing them... as for the rest, the 3cc is true until post board, but even still, the CB player can save removal and counters to deal with those things that the other player can't afford to.

[Citrus-God]

Further, in my other experience, I used to play almost the exact same version of Adan's list and I found that, guess what, it tended to lose to Counterbalance.

You played that before I even started playing Counterbalance. I think we did playtest at some point, and I kept thrashing you with UWG Hatfield.

As a CB player, worrying about a BS is hardly a matter of importance. When the other player has several cards in hand and I have only one mana available to top, countering cantrips is a little unneeded. That's just bad playing on behalf of your opponent. Further, even if you do get rid of the card on top, why wouldn't the CB player just draw off the Top and counter Needle? And even if they didn't do that, it's still a crap shoot to not hit a 1cc card.

We both playtested the mirror extensively. When the opponent casts a cantrip and the opposing player happens to have a Counterbalance without Top, we tend to let the cantrip resolve so that when he casts threat, he walks right into it.

It has as much chance for it to hit your FoW as you have for drawing them... as for the rest, the 3cc is true until post board, but even still, the CB player can save removal and counters to deal with those things that the other player can't afford to.

BTS isnt a threat I'm concerned with... and Shackles can be answered by Needle. Post-board, the Counterbalance player will probably side in Grips and Shackles.

[aTn]

Kyachi: I can't speak for the German metagame, and I sincerely don't give a damn about what goes on in a country half way around the world with a metagame I'll never play in. I'm speaking from my experience on paper and online.

Ok, point taken. I can't speak for the German meta since I'm in Canada (near New-York).

Kyachi: That's just bad playing on behalf of your opponent. Further, even if you do get rid of the card on top, why wouldn't the CB player just draw off the Top and counter Needle?

I agree; he didn't activate Top to draw and that was a major misplay on his part (I drew Stifle with Predict but I don't think he could have known that).

Kyachi: And to bite on my ego, I'm sorry for being rude and sarcastic.

I'll do the same here...

For a couple of months following the GP Columbus, influenced by Nicolo's list, I played a tempo CB-Top-less UGR-Threshold build. When playing against UGR-CB-Top-Threshold (variations on the Hatfield's list) , I'd just keep counters for an early-game CB (I used to play 4 FoW, 4 Daze, 4 Spell Snare) and try to have an edge on the board (which tends to happen when you play Stifle + Wastelands early in the game to slow your opponent down). A mid to late game CB didn't wreck my plans that much, but hey, that's just my experience with the deck, yours might prove different.

AntiAmerican4621: We both playtested the mirror extensively. When the opponent casts a cantrip and the opposing player happens to have a Counterbalance without Top, we tend to let the cantrip resolve so that when he casts threat, he walks right into it.

I adopt the same strategy when Top isn't on the board (on my side, me being the opponent's opponent ;)).

What Threshold build(s) is (are) more appropriate for the American meta (say, that of TML03) ?

Any thoughts on merging the Threshold threads ?

[Kyachi]

What Threshold build(s) is (are) more appropriate for the American meta (say, that of TML03) ?

I'm a huge fan of the Hatfield's version. It took me a while to get here, but I don't think that I'd ever go back. To me, Threshold is, at its core, a control deck that happens to have access some of the best creatures available at the lowest casting costs available. Achieving threshold with the deck is so incidental that I've found that the speed from Mental Note is really not worth the blind mill and -1 card from Predict. That and the satisfaction of Predicting Breakfast's Worldly Tutor targets. That's just funny. My list is identical to AA's list above if I were red, swapping in swords and enforcer if I were white.

I'm not sure on the amount of finishers, I saw that some lists were eschewing the 3 needles for additional Counterspells and an extra Enforcer/Dragon in the main, but I'm not sold on that. Needle is such a panacea for me, I guess I use it as a bit of a crutch, and I don't think that I'm ready to get rid of it.

Looking at the lists from TMLO, obviously Ewokslayer's list of Survival was the deck to beat, and thus, the more Enforcers to hide behind against Shriekmaw, the better. This may be me, but I always feel like the less aggressive Threshold lists do better, but it's totally possible that's just my playstyle. I feel like Threshold isn't threat dense enough to make a lot of early pressure, it just has inevitability over a lot of things because of Counter/Top. Anyways, the more Enforcers, the better, looking at Day one lists. That and Day 2 Machinus played UGb Thresh, which I feel has a huge problem against UGw, in that there are zero outs to Mystic Enforcer other than early Thoughtseize+pray the opponent has the Enforcer in hand and no Brainstorm to save it. There is not 4cc spell to CB it, and looking at his board, I didn't see any way to hurt it there. For reference, the lists are at http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7617

Looking back over what I've written here, I realize that I sound like I'm pitching white Thresh on the Red thread, but I'm just responding to a question. Also, I know it seems like I'm ignoring Bardo's list, but its just more aggressive than I feel is necessary. Apologies to all offended parties.

Any thoughts on merging the Threshold threads ?

I think that's possible, as there are really a few minute differences between lists outside of the sideboard, and that's mostly because of necessity. Bolt may as well be swords and Dragon may as well be Enforcer.

[Lego]

It has as much chance for it to hit your FoW as you have for drawing them... as for the rest, the 3cc is true until post board, but even still, the CB player can save removal and counters to deal with those things that the other player can't afford to.

Sometimes more so, as you have Top. I've got to agree with you that CB is huge in the mirror. I can't overstate its worth. I haven't tested hundreds of games, but I've literally never lost a mirror game where I got Counter/Top up before my opponent. I was honestly incredibly surprised to see anyone even arguing about it. As far as I'm concerned, it's a non-issue. CB is game breaking. That you think otherwise leads me to believe that you're playing a very non-standard list, or playing versus terrible opponents.

[aTn]

Thanks for the analysis of TML03. I'm also not sold on letting the Needles go from MD to SB (they tend to help a lot against randomness and the common targets). Like you, I've set aside Bardo's list for quite some time now. I didn't like Mental Note that much and 12-14 creatures seemed a bit too much (in the UGW lists with Goose-Bear/M.Mage-Goyf-Enforcer). My list is starting to get closer and closer to the Hatfield's but I'm not sold on F. Dragon. At the same time, I don't see a good alternative, short of splashing white.

On another subject, I'll soon be acquiring two Rolling Earthquakes and I'm considering the question of replacing two Pyroclasms in my SB with them. I'm not yet convinced. RE hits flying creatures (that don't have horsemanship, heh) and costs the same as Pyroclasm to get rid of ETW tokens. It can also act as a finisher (burning the opponent) in certain match-ups. On the other hand, it costs 2R to kill Bridge from Below tokens and to do the same damage as Pyroclasm (e.g. against Goblins). Thoughts ?


@Lego_Army_Man:

As far as I'm concerned, it's a non-issue. CB is game breaking. That you think otherwise leads me to believe that you're playing a very non-standard list, or playing versus terrible opponents.

Yes CB is game breaking, no one argued with that (well I didn't anyhow).

The argument (as far as I'm concerned) was over the statement that CB-Top lists beat non-CB-Top lists with a 100% probability. The only (very obvious) point I was trying to make was that the advantage CB gives depends on when it is resolve (early, mid or late game), what the game state is when it resolves and what non-CB-Top build we're talking about. Try testing the Hatfield's list against some of the tempo lists (for example the tempo lists from the Gencon top8) and you'll see it isn't that clear who wins game 1 (especially if the tempo list plays Wasteland, Stifle and Spell Snare), although the CB-Top player clearly has an edge. I really can't see why someone wouldn't agree with that.

About playing against bad opponents (pretty sure you aimed that at me): I'm not going to try to convince you that when playing in tournaments I mostly play against good opponents (and when testing I tend to play only against good opponents, except when on MWS ). If thinking otherwise helps you dismiss the comments I make, go ahead. As far as I'm concerned, this was rather a cheap shot on your part, but hey, it happens (no hard feelings).

Here's the list I've been playing for the last three months (I doubt that it's non-standard, but the SB and some MD slots obviously change from time to time).

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Counterbalance

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Predict
3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Fire/Ice

2 Pithing Needle

1 Forest
2 Island
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island

Sideboard
4 Pyroclasm
3 Krosan Grip
3 Control Magic
4 Thormod's Crypt
1 Pithing Needle

[Kyachi]

On rolling earthquake- what would you want to kill that you would make earthquake bigger than 2? Everything in Goblins has a 2 butt, etw tokens only have 1 toughness... I feel like it would be used as an overcosted 'clasm most of the time. I understand the want for versatility in the Sb, but this isn't a particularly land-endowed deck, the most cost efficiency, the better.

I like having the huge flyer as a must counter/must deal with effect. As it is, all your list has as must counter cards for the mirror is Top, everything else is on a lower tier of threat. Dragon/Enforcer makes them find answers fast and it locks up games that are otherwise lost. That and, and I can't tell you happy I am to be able to finally use this argument in seriousness, everyone else is running them. By saying that, I mean that if other people have a big flyer, you sure as hell should have one too, otherwise your list of outs drops drastically.
The only changes I would make is to drop Fire/Ice for dragons and a needle. SB changes too much to be really discussed.

[aTn]

I agree with Kyachi about Rolling Earthquake. The only positive point I see is that it allows you to burn the opponent. As you said, the deck doesn't drop that many mana sources on the board, so it's not that probable that it'll do more damage than Bolt, circumstantial at best. The only relevant creatures I see RE killing are Sea Drakes (Bolt deals with that already), Jotun Grunts (with Grunt in play you might end up killing your guys, which isn't that hot), Serra Avengers, Hypnotic Specter, etc. (which aren't played very often in my area). My conclusion is that I'd play RE in a deck like Empty the Slogger, but not in UGR-Threshold.

I've had good results with the list I posted above (a couple of Top1s and many Top4s) but to be honest, I didn't face Hatfield Thresh that often in these tournaments. When I play against Hatfield thresh, I sometimes end up countering Dragon, casting Control Magic on their Dragon, tapping their Dragon and putting pressure with my guys or just dying to Dragon. I guess I'd rather play Dragon (or Enforcer) myself if the match-up were common. I'll test the F. Dragons (-3 F/I + 2 F. Dragon +1 Needle).

I finished first at a local tournament a couple of weeks ago with the following UGRw list (not many Wastelands present that day). I ended up playing against Cephalid Breakfast, Goblins, UGR-Threshold (no Dragons, tempo build) and Belcher. What do you think of the list ? I'm not sold on the whole 4 colors thing, especially if facing lots of mana denial.

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Predict
2 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Counterbalance

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Mystic Enforcer

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Swords to Plowshares

3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand

Sideboard
3 Pyroclasm
4 Meddling Mage
2 Krosan Grip
1 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Control Magic
3 Pithing Needle

[Kyachi]

The 4 color thing seems to be really for the sideboarded Pyroclasm. You don't really need additional reach from the bolts, outside of swords in the MD in my opinion, and if you did, there is always the option of running a couple of Explosives. Also, the 4/3 split in favor of Bolt seems a bit off. Swords is clearly the better removal spell to me.

[Citrus-God]

So here's my two cents; running less than 3 Tops is a mistake. The number of Counterbalances doesnt really matter, as long as you have 3 Tops. You can run 2, but at least run 3 if you're running Counterbalance maindeck.

Also, you dont need 7 removal spells. You only need 4 so that you can reject them when you dont need them. Besides, isnt Creatures and Swords removal enough? Counterbalance kinda controls the board as well.

[aTn]

I agree with you that I went a bit overboard on the removal. Ok, so something like -4 Bolt, +1 StoP, +1 Top, +2 Needle (and +1 Pyroclasm, +1 Grip, +1 something in the SB) ?

Did any of you test UGR vs. UGB (Machinus' list) ?

[Kyachi]

Did any of you test UGR vs. UGB (Machinus' list) ?

The obvious difference is that Ghastly Demise is able to kill off Dragon, so that would improve it in the favor of UGb, but Bolt is able to kill Sea Drake, so that keeps other stuff on par with White. Thoughtseize plays basically the same purpose preboard as with white, but if one were to run Blood Moon postboard, there are 3cc spells to counter it with on the UGb player's side (Sea Drake).

[Citrus-God]

The obvious difference is that Ghastly Demise is able to kill off Dragon, so that would improve it in the favor of UGb, but Bolt is able to kill Sea Drake, so that keeps other stuff on par with White. Thoughtseize plays basically the same purpose preboard as with white, but if one were to run Blood Moon postboard, there are 3cc spells to counter it with on the UGb player's side (Sea Drake).

I always go for Krosan Grips post-board... that helps against Drakes. Blood Moon is good too, but you should only side in 1-2 copies if you feel like being tricky.

[Lego]

About playing against bad opponents (pretty sure you aimed that at me): I'm not going to try to convince you that when playing in tournaments I mostly play against good opponents (and when testing I tend to play only against good opponents, except when on MWS ). If thinking otherwise helps you dismiss the comments I make, go ahead. As far as I'm concerned, this was rather a cheap shot on your part, but hey, it happens (no hard feelings).

It wasn't meant to be a cheap shot at you, but simply a statement of fact: If you believe that non-CB lists can consistently beat CB lists, then you're either playing an incredibly non-standard build, or you're playing against terrible players. There's really no other way to spin it. I see that you're not saying that, but I wonder if you are still underestimating CB. If you expect a decent amount of Thresh, there's really no reason not to run the full compliment in the main (this usually means 3/3.) Especially with the decline in Goblins recently.

[aTn]

Lego said: I see that you're not saying that, but I wonder if you are still underestimating CB. If you expect a decent amount of Thresh, there's really no reason not to run the full compliment in the main (this usually means 3/3.) Especially with the decline in Goblins recently.

I don't think I understimate CB. In fact I have been running it MD in all my threshold builds since about 3 months and I played around 8 tournaments with it MD and I love it. I totally agree with you, I don't see any good reason not to run CB-Top in the Threshold MD these days.

I was just being pointy about the "100% win percentage" statement. Something around the lines of "CB-Top has a great match-up against non-CB-Top") would have made it ok for the anal nitpicking side of my personality - loosing itself in the vagueness and subjective side of the word "great" (/end oral masturbation).

[PhanTom_lt]

Made top8 in Baltic Legacy Championships with this deck. Decklist:

Lands:17
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
3 Breeding Pool
1 Steam Vents
1 Island
1 Forest
4 Polluted Delta
3 Wooded Foothills

Creatures:10
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Werebear

Spells:33
4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Daze
3 Spell Snare
4 Lighnting Bolt
2 Vedalken Shackles
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Serum Visions

Sb:15
3 Krosan Grip
1 Burning tree Shaman
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Pyroclasm
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pithing Needle.

Will write a report later.

[aTn]

Good job !

How was Shackles for you ? Can you give play situations where it was good/bad ? Thanks in advance...