[OLD] UGr Threshold

[Adan]

Made top8 in Baltic Legacy Championships with this deck. Decklist:

[...]
4 Counterbalance
[...]
3 Daze
[...]
3 Ponder
[...]
4 Serum Vision

WTFWTFWTFWTF?!

That looks random. But aynways, good job. And I said Vedalken Shackles are nuts! Try them!

But I'm still not convinced about Counterbalance in UGR. There are a lot of things that can be done better by UGW. UGR simply doesn't has got appropirate removal-spells to be controlish. They rather gain speedadvantage to win damage-races.

[kabal]

@PhanTom_lt :

Why 3 Ponder and 4 SV?

Why only 1 BTS in the board? Was it actually boarded in?

[Kyachi]

UGR simply doesn't has got appropirate removal-spells to be controlish.

I'd say the whole reason to run UGr at all is the availability of Pyroclasm in the SB, otherwise I think that it's outclassed by white on nearly all fronts...

[Adan]

I'd say the whole reason to run UGr at all is the availability of Pyroclasm in the SB, otherwise I think that it's outclassed by white on nearly all fronts...

Agreed, nothing to add. Except that Pyroclasm is overrated. It's good, yeah, but it doesn't auto-win against Goblin. Keep it real.

[aTn]

I'd say the whole reason to run UGr at all is the availability of Pyroclasm in the SB, otherwise I think that it's outclassed by white on nearly all fronts...

QFT... oh and let's not forget Meltdown ;)

[kabal]

I'd say the whole reason to run UGr at all is the availability of Pyroclasm in the SB, otherwise I think that it's outclassed by white on nearly all fronts...

To a lesser degree Ancient Grudge, which can be phenomenal against certain decks.

[kabal]

The list was recently played @ TML open 3 (Day 1). The thing that caught my eye was the cantrips. He is playing both SV and Ponder. Visions was played a bunch before Ponder and his build is very tempo based so seems to be a good fit. Not to mention, it will ensure that Gofy gets the +1 boost.

What do you guys think?

Austin Pollark

// Lands
3 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
3 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Werebear

// Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
2 Fire/Ice
4 Force of Will
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Spell Snare
3 Stifle
4 Ponder
4 Serum Visions

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Pyroclasm
SB: 3 Threads of Disloyalty
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt

[Kyachi]

I would really rather that 4th Spell Snare be another lightning bolt personally. 4 seems awfully high for something that situational, regardless of how many tarmogoyfs are floating around.
And the obvious weakness to big flyers.

I don't suppose you know how well this list placed?

On the Serum Visions alongside Ponder: That isn't really anything new I think... Machinus figured out that the double sorcery thing is better tempo than only having the 4 ponders, but he had the good sense to use Portent, which isn't a blind draw... Just saying.

[kabal]

On the Serum Visions alongside Ponder: That isn't really anything new I think... Machinus figured out that the double sorcery thing is better tempo than only having the 4 ponders, but he had the good sense to use Portent, which isn't a blind draw... Just saying.

I wasn't implying that 8 sorcery cantrips is revolutionary, just I haven't seen 4 SV and Ponder played together in a tournament list. I'm sure it has before this, but I haven't tested it myself and wondering what people thought.

Personally, I have been playing 4 BS, 4 Ponder and 4 Opt for a while now and have enjoyed the results

[Kyachi]

Personally, I have been playing 4 BS, 4 Ponder and 4 Opt for a while now and have enjoyed the results

I used to play with Opt because I didn't have enough Serum Visions to trade between decks. Mind you this was a loooong time ago...Why do you like Opt over something that digs deeper (Portent/Serum Visions) or something more consistent (The Dradle of Destruction/Sensei's Divining Top)?

[kabal]

I used to play with Opt because I didn't have enough Serum Visions to trade between decks. Mind you this was a loooong time ago...Why do you like Opt over something that digs deeper (Portent/Serum Visions) or something more consistent (The Dradle of Destruction/Sensei's Divining Top)?

At the time I was playing a playset of Quirion Dryad and I liked the ability to cantrip at the end of my opponent's turn. That way I could keep my mana available for Bolt, Fire, Stifle or Counterspell. Recently I have been reevaluating Opt due to dropping the Dryads for 2 Bears.

[kabal]

Below is a list from a recent (November 18th, 2007) tournament in Italy with had 30 players. Not CB and runs BTS. Again, more and more finding the cantrip base made up of BS, Ponder and SV in tempo based versions. I noticed that he is running PoP in the board, i'm assuming this is for Landstill and maybe to break a deadlock in the Thresh mirror.

Feltrin Paolo (2nd place)

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [B] Tropical Island
4 [R] Volcanic Island
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
2 [LRW] Island (2)
1 [LRW] Forest (3)

// Creatures
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
2 [GP] Burning-Tree Shaman
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells
3 [SC] Stifle
4 [NE] Daze
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
3 [4E] Lightning Bolt
2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [LRW] Ponder
3 [FD] Serum Visions
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [AP] Fire/Ice

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [EX] Price of Progress
SB: 1 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 3 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [OD] Divert
SB: 2 [BOK] Threads of Disloyalty
SB: 3 [OV] Pyroclasm
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip

[PhanTom_lt]

WTFWTFWTFWTF?!

That looks random. But aynways, good job. And I said Vedalken Shackles are nuts! Try them!

But I'm still not convinced about Counterbalance in UGR. There are a lot of things that can be done better by UGW. UGR simply doesn't has got appropirate removal-spells to be controlish. They rather gain speedadvantage to win damage-races.

Yeah, vedalken shackles won me one game on their back alone. Not having a big bad creature for ex, Dragon or Sea Drake, hurt, so I decided to play 2 Shackles instead.

@PhanTom_lt :

Why 3 Ponder and 4 SV?

Why only 1 BTS in the board? Was it actually boarded in?

My friend argued that SV was better. I had a different experience during the tournament, finding that Ponder is nuts when digging for solutions. In the top 8, i played SV, only for the Scry to reveal Force on the top. He comboed on his turn, naturally. I'll be switching back to 4 Ponder and 3 or 4 SV.
BTS was included because I had 1 free SB slot, and BTS actually helps against Life.dec, which I knew was in the metagame. I didn't play against it, but the Shaman was boarded in against Solidarity and Burn instead of Shackles. About CB - I wanted to play it after having great success with it in UG, and also wanted some more game against combo. In testing it went well, but then maybe I was playing a little controllish, using only 10 creatures and all that.
Report will be written in a few days, had to write it in my own language first. :P

[Adan]

To a lesser degree Ancient Grudge, which can be phenomenal against certain decks.

Stax and...?

Grudge is not worth mentioning. Anyways I'd prefer Shattering Spree over that.
Ah, finally someone who played BTS, but w00t!!! Serum Visions and no Predicts??? Eeek! And why the fuck a 3/3 split of Lightning Bolts and Fire//Ice?
But it could be improved.

[kabal]

Stax and...?

Grudge is not worth mentioning. Anyways I'd prefer Shattering Spree over that.

How about Affinity? Not to mention Landstill is making a hugh come back, great against Crucible of Worlds & Mishra's Factory.

As for Shattering Spree, that takes 2 Red to chain. Quite often you want to have the ability to remove another artifact later, not right then.

[kabal]

Serum Visions and no Predicts???

Honestly, there is nothing wrong with running a 4/4/3 with BS, Ponder and SV in a tempo based version. Quite often predict can just clog your hand if you don't have another cantrips to support it properly. To be honest, the 2 cards in the graveyard don't hold a lot of weight running just mongoose.

A little off topic, but I think most people have found that MN isn't worth running unless you have a playset of geese and bears

[Adan]

How about Affinity? Not to mention Landstill is making a hugh come back, great against Crucible of Worlds & Mishra's Factory.

As for Shattering Spree, that takes 2 Red to chain. Quite often you want to have the ability to remove another artifact later, not right then.

You already win against affinity thank to a shitload of burn, where's the problem? O.o
Against Landstill, Krosan Grip is the better choice I think.

[kabal]

You already win against affinity thank to a shitload of burn, where's the problem?

There are quite a few things that aren't creatures. Cranial Plating, Aether Vial, Jitte and their lands. The ability to destroy 2 of their lands off one spell is quite a tempo boost.

[donkyranger]

I personally have been having some trouble fill the third creature spot in goyf/ mongoose/ X creature base and I was wondering what everyone thought of Skyshroud War Beast. With the Meta as it is on average he's not the greatest turn 2 but late game he'd be good. Plus, if you oppnent knew about it or he was on the board, he could possible prevent you opp. from play more lands and in turn stall.

Just wondering what everyone thought. Thanks.

[Adan]

I personally have been having some trouble fill the third creature spot in goyf/ mongoose/ X creature base and I was wondering what everyone thought of Skyshroud War Beast. With the Meta as it is on average he's not the greatest turn 2 but late game he'd be good. Plus, if you oppnent knew about it or he was on the board, he could possible prevent you opp. from play more lands and in turn stall.

Just wondering what everyone thought. Thanks.

Skyshroud War Beast isn't played because it's still dead/too small against several matchups, even in the mirrormatch because NQG always operates fine with 2-3 manasources so Tarmogoyf is still superior to Skyshroud War Beast. Against Burn for examble, you need a serious clock, but War Beast can't be a threat because Burn doesn't run Non-Basics (except Barbarian Ring, yeah, that's blah).