From the 120 person Dutch Legacy Championship:
Quarter-Finalist: Ivo Koolhaas
Deckname: Red Deck Wins
Maindeck:
2 Tephraderm
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Arc-Slogger
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Umezawa?s Jitte
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Trinisphere
3 Blood Moon
10 Mountain
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Seething Song
4 Chrome Mox
Sideboard:
3 Ingot Chewer
3 Pithing Needle
2 Tephraderm
2 Trinisphere
4 Tormod?s Crypt
1 Blood Moon
Do you have the decklists from the result of the Top 8?Originally Posted by QQQ
"Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun." --Ash
I will post them in the tournament section :)
How do you guys think about Avarax in the Gathan Raiders slot? I guess he would mean more pressure for the opponent....
The answer is a definitive no. Gathan Raiders is the single best creature in the deck.
As far as Avarax in place of anything, it's still no. Considering very often you only hitwith Seething Song or SSG or Pre Blood Moon/Magus of the Moon, your odds of chaining into 3/3's are slim. And even if you do, it's kind of an underwhelming goal to try to achieve.
So what are the SB's for this deck looking like? Defense Grids? Crypts and Kegs? Is there anyway Taco or Phantom (or others that are piloting the deck) to post their SB's? Thanks in advance.
Mine is in the opening post, and hasn't really changed any since I haven't been able to test Defense Grid. I prefer kegs to clasm in the 'goyf era, but certain people may find otherwise. Ingot Chewer is a tough call for me, as he is pretty narrow compared to something like Keg, which may be eating his spot.
Taco, or anyone else have thoughts on Grid? If it's solid I'll squeeze it in for Demonfire (which is really more of a maindeck card if you're going to run it I've found).
I've never seen him so upset....or ever before.
At the moment, and when I say "At the moment" I mean "Right as of this second without any complete commitment to keeping it as such because I'm still testing," my sideboard is:
4 Pithing Needle
4 Pyroclasm
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Trinisphere
With Trinisphere having been cut from my maindeck in favor of more threats and a full eight Blood Moons, which has skyrocketed the consistency of my draws and manabase at the cost of, well, not having Trinisphere and all that entails.
Keg isn't finding room. It's good, yes, but its competition is better. With its absence, I'm fully aware the deck has absolutely no way to clear an artifact off the board, and I'm okay with that. Pyroclasm and Pithing Needle deal with most of what Powder Keg deals with.
Defense Grid almost has to be a metagame call. It and Trinisphere don't play together well, as their Grid costs can work towards their Trinisphere costs. Trinisphere isn't anywhere near as good as Defense Grid against heavily blue decks, but that's all Grid is good at, whereas Trinisphere stops Storm Combo and can on occasion randomly win a game against anything when you're on the play. However, if I expected about half blue in a metagame, with high amounts of MUC, Landstill, Solidarity, or Threshold, I'd certainly pick Grid. I value it high enough that I'm currently hunting a set to go in my "Possible Sideboard Options" box.
First off, props on the deck. It looks quite interesting, and I'm always fond of seeing red decks that are competative.
Second, has anyone tested out Fledgling Dragon? I ask because I see no mention of it anywhere in the thread. With cards like City of Traitors, Seething Song, Razorcore, and the Raiders, it would seem like thresh would be fairly easy to attain, and you wouldn't need to constantly sink RR into the Fledgling every turn to give it flying/evasion. Also, Razorcore seems like a really strong card right now, but it severely lacks synergy when trying to maintain hellbent (which is when RPD really "shines").
Thresh is actually not as easy to obtain as you would think, and Pit Dragon is so much better than fledgling its not even funny. Doublestrike on Hell-bent usually just wins you the game.
Red Wizard needs food badly!
That is pretty surprising. What turn do you reach thresh on avarage? I know Chrome Mox/SSG don't really help, but they seem to be out-numbered by cards that would/do.
Have you actually tested it, or are you merely running off theory here?
I guess Fledgling's strength would really depend on the list (I see some running little/no Razorcores/SOFIs at all).
He's got evasion at no added cost, so he carries SOFI/Jitte well. He's still pumpable (with thresh), and he's more synergistic with Razorcore by not necessarily forcing you to over-extend into hellbent.
I guess if your main goal is to over-extend into hellbent, then RPD would be a bit better; however, if you want to take advantage of SOFI & Razorcore then Fledgling would seem to fill the role with a bit more synergy.
Add in a bit of pumping, and that doesn't surprise me one bit (if you can pull it off without hindrance).
This is not the deck to play cards with Threshold. The only card that you can put into the yard by yourself is Seething Song.
If you have drawn 1 Seething Song that means that your opponent has to destroy or counter 6 of your spells and permanents (not Swording them). Usually that won't happen before turn ~10, especially because you try to keep the opponent from playing spells with Moons, Chalices and 3-Spheres.
Well, the build I run usually gets thresh only if my opponent destroys or counters my permanents. Otherwise, the only cards that beef the yard are Gathan Raiders, Seething Song, and City (unless I moon). Goldfishing I usually hit thresh past turn 10, and against an opponent it depends on him.
The reason I haven't tested Fledgling is just because Hell-bent is easier to get than thresh (and is also not reliant on my opp), and because RPD is better all around than Fledgling. Unthreshed and unbent, Pit Dragon can fly and pump, while Fledgeling just flies. Threshed and Pumped, Pit Dragon hits twice (better with equips) and pumps for 2 off one mana.
If you were thinking about running him in one of the other slots, you'd have to cut either Slogs, Magus, or Gathan Raiders, and I just can't see doing that. He's a great creature, but he isn't better than what we already run.
Red Wizard needs food badly!
Like said above other than Seething Song (and the occasional City of Traitors), you never put stuff in the yard unless one of your threats is answered, I dont know how anyone whos ever even goldfished the deck can think thresh would be obtainable at all...
"Never"? So I take it you don't run Raiders, or Razorcore then?
Again, I'm not saying Fledgling is the optimal choice for any/all lists; I was merely asking if anyone had actually tested it. If you havn't... a simple "no" would suffice.
@Zork
Thanks for putting a bit of thought into your response.
Quick question: I notice that some lists run SOFI; however, if a hellbent RPD, equiped with SOFI, deals its "first strike" damage, does it then lose it's "normal" strike (along with any attacking Raiders' +2/+2s durring their "normal" attacks) due to the card drawn? My gut says yes.
I run Raiders but not Razorcore, and no I havnt tested it but I have tested the deck and know threshold is very hard to get, and by turn 15 I think I could do better with a hellbent RPD.
EDIT:
I think you would lose hellbent yes.
No.
We haven't tested Roc of Kher Ridges, either, who I think would be strictly better than Fledgling Dragon in this deck.
If you get Threshold in Dragon Stompy, you lost. It's that simple. I've frequently won the game without a single card hitting my graveyard (Although having an enormous RFG Zone.) By the time you get seven in the yard, you failed to hurt your opponent in the first eight to fifteen turns it took you to get it, and you won't recover.
I'm currently testing a "maniac doll" deck to which I have given the same shell as dragon stompy. I don't know if it's worth making a new thread just for it, so I'll post it here.
12 mountains
4 city of traitors
4 ancient tomb
4 stuffy doll
4 simian spirit guide
4 volcano hellion
4 mogg maniac
3 flametongue kavu
4 magus of the moon
3 trinisphere
3 earthquake
4 chalice of the void
4 seething song
3 chrome mox
Basically, the idea of the deck is to get a doll or a maniac out and to play hellion / kavu / earthquake on them (alternatively, they make great blockers). If you don't hit them, then you just play in a normal dragon stompy way (but with worse creatures, admitedly).
I must say that at the very least, this is fun to play. You can make some really broken plays, too. I just did T1 mountain + mox + maniac, T2 attack with maniac, drop a city and a hellion (-19 to both players) --> gg.
The sideboard is similar to the normal dragon stompy ones.
I must say that I'm not a specialist of dragon stompy, and not a very big tournaments player either. I mostly play on local tournaments with budget decks, and this explains some of my choices.
Has anyone tried Shivan Wumpus? In a decklist running 4 Trinisphere it can be deadly: first turn trini followed by turn-after-turn wumpus tells your opponent "lose all your lands or deal with a 6/6 beast".
The downfall is that sometimes you topdeck it and it's just a stone rain since your opponent can deal with sacrificing a land - maybe a "mountained" one.
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The downfall is exactly as you say it is.
From someone who ran Green Land Destruction for a long time and to great success in the "Old 1.5", I had a lot of experience with his twin, Argothian Wurm. Argothian Wurm was fantastic if my mana denial had been successful, and lost me the game if it hadn't. He was when I started really learning what "Win More" meant.
In Dragon Stompy, this guy is terrible. Against control, where you need a threat, this guy isn't a threat, he's a Stone Rain. And if you've shut off a dual or two via Blood Moon, that'll be the land that goes. Similarly, if they're holding an STP/Edict, your Wumpus is going to resolve, and they'll kill it.
Any card that gives your opponent the final choice probably doesn't have a place in Legacy. The chief example of this offense is Browbeat. I've had literally close to a hundred different people argue to me how Browbeat was a wonderful card, about how they'd either get to draw three or deal five to the opponent. And it's not. It's a terrible card, because if either one of these choices are one the opponent could deal with, they'll pick that. And if they can't deal with either choice, then any card which either just dealt damage or just drew cards would be equally satisfactory. And any time you cast it, unless your opponent is an idiot, it will always do its weaker effect.
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