[OLD] UGw Threshold

[Nihil Credo]

I was thinking the other day how much I hate Brainstorm in my casual deck (made on the cheap, ergo only Terramorphic Expanse an the only shuffle effect)

You're talking about an entirely different deck. Your arguments are perfectly valid, but they don't apply to a deck with up to 16 shuffle effects (fetches, 4 Ponder, 4 Portent), often 4 Predicts, Counterbalance, plus some other quirks like an increased need to protect its threats from discard (because it runs so few).

[Filipinho]

I love NQGw. My list looks exactly like most decks here, with top, counterbalance and needle. Only my mana base being different. I play more basic lands and a wider diversity of fetches. You see some back to basics, needles naming fetches and Magus of the Moon every now and then. I don't fear wasteland, but it also helps against wasteland + crucible.

This is my land base:
1x Forest
1x Plains
1x Island
2x Tundra
3x Tropical Island
2x Windswept Heath
3x Polluted Delta
4x Flooded Strand

I think the MD is awesome, you did a great job developing it, but I don't know what to put in the SB.

Also, I've seen 2-3 Krosan Grips in the SBs. Against what do you usually board them in? What is the right number?

Is a graveyard hate needed? Tormod's crypt, Jotun Grünt etc., what is the better option if needed?

My SB right now is:
1x Counterbalance
3x Gaddock Teeg (Meddling Mage?)
4x Hydroblast (3?)
2x Threads of Disloyalty (Mind Harness?)(3?)
2x Armageddon
3x Krosan Grip (2?)(Tormod's Crypt?)

Thank you.

[Kyachi]

Also, I've seen 2-3 Krosan Grips in the SBs. Against what do you usually board them in? What is the right number?

Krosan Grip is there to deal with several things. First of all, it costs three, and that has won me some games against BWG decks with Vindicate and Deed. In fact, I just wrote a report in which that happened here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ead.php?t=7721
Further, it helps against opposing Counterbalance/Top engines because it again costs three. The Split Second is pretty great, as it tricks people into playing Deed without being able to blow it. Ditto Engineered Explosives.

I board it in against other Threshold, anything that is B/G, and the obvious things in which you want Enchantment/Artifact hate around, like Survival.

[raharu]

All arguments for Brainstorm are solid, I will admit, but I just see far too many instances where Brainstorm draws into trash that you would rather get rid of instead of stacking it back on top. The Situational advantages that Brainstorm provides have not proven worthwhile in the instances I have played in. Having to essentially pitch cantrips/ wait for fetchlands to use Brainstorm effectively is not something I desire. I would rather maxamize the potential of each individaul cantrip, a philosophy which Brainstorm falls not in line with (which is possibly why I prefer AK over predict). The Synergy with SDT is almost coincidental. I like SDT because it is good on its own. I love it because has wonderful synergy with the cantrips I chose to run (Ponder, Portent, Serum Visions, if I had to run a fourth [not including AK] it would be Mental Note because it makes Mongeese and Werebears quite explosive). My argument against Brainstorm is that it is fairly dead when it is functioning by itself, whereas Portent, Ponder, and Serum Visions are not.

[Machinus]

Debating the merits of Brainstorm in a deck with blue lands is like debating the merits of Goblin Lackey in Goblins.

Brainstorm might be the best spell in this format.

[Nihil Credo]

My argument against Brainstorm is that it is fairly dead when it is functioning by itself, whereas Portent, Ponder, and Serum Visions are not.

My argument is that any Thresh list runs at least 13 cards that make Brainstorm absolutely bonkers, so it can safely be relied upon.

Machinus' analogy is actually very spot-on, because Goblin Lackey too becomes mediocre without enough Goblins to drop. Likewise, Brainstorm is mediocre in that deck you were testing.

[aTn]

I have to agree with Machinus and the others on that one.

but I just see far too many instances where Brainstorm draws into trash that you would rather get rid of instead of stacking it back on top.

It protects you from discard (Thoughtseize comes to mind - for example UGb-Threshold match-up). It's an instant and being that gives you reach to find answers not in your hand, etc.

Having to essentially pitch cantrips/ wait for fetchlands to use Brainstorm effectively

Well that comes to the point of knowing how to play fetches with Brainstorm (i.e. knowing when to crack a fetchland, etc.) and knowing how to chain cantrips. I'm not trying to be condescending but I really don't see another answer to your considerations. Yes the situation you describe happens, but it's not that common (to me anyways). (I'm talking about 'standard' UGx-Threshold lists here).

[Cait_Sith]

Debating the merits of Brainstorm in a deck with blue lands is like debating the merits of Goblin Lackey in Goblins.

Brainstorm can be atrocious in MUC... ergo Lackey shouldn't be in Goblins?

Brainstorm needs a few things to function well:

Shuffle effects, lots of them. I would say anything less than 6 is right out.

Cantrips. They provide another means to force your way past the cards put back on top.

A reason to prefer instant speed, such as counterspells or protection against enemy hard disruption.

Thresh combines ALL of these criteria into a single deck; I do not think there is currently a deck out there that can use Brainstorm to better effect than Thresh (currently, anyway).

[Blaukreuz]

do you think 2x Engineered Explosives instead of 2x Needles in the Maindeck is okay?

i really like the "vindicate effect" of EE.

[MattH]

Thresh combines ALL of these criteria into a single deck; I do not think there is currently a deck out there that can use Brainstorm to better effect than Thresh (currently, anyway).

Breakfast probably can. It has everything Threshold does, plus the need to put its combo cards back in the library.

[Obfuscate Freely]

If you are still having difficulty understanding why Brainstorm belongs, you probably need to stop looking at it in relation to the other cantrips. It certainly doesn't play like any of the others.

Yes, first-turn Brainstorms are underwhelming, but that's generally an awful play. The real utility of Brainstorm comes from the ability to draw three cards, and then put the two worst cards in your hand back and shuffle them away. No other cantrip can do this, and it really puts Brainstorm into a league of its own.

Honestly, Brainstorm is the most powerful blue draw spell this side of Fact or Fiction. Threshold should absolutely run four of them. Not to get off topic, but even MUC should run a playset of Brainstorms, no matter how many fetchlands you have to add to make it worthwhile - that's how good the card is.

[Sigar]

Lol. Are we seriously talking about THE brainstorm many would like too see restricted in vintage?

Yea, it's pretty decent.

[raharu]

The ability of Portent + Sensei's Diving Top to dig for 3 + 3 before the draw is why I bring up Portent over Brainstorm. I'm sure that I know how to play Brainstorm (and fetchlands) and I know how to chain my cantrips, but I also know that the lag between the shuffle and the draw Portent provides is a rare and powerful thing to exploit. The random draw of Ponder sucks. If you shuffle you generally shuffle back crap, but drawing random crap to avoid crap still sucks. Everyone got all excited and came on Ponder's face when it was released, but the inability to filter between the shuffle an the draw is a fault. Maybe the conversation should be Portent > Ponder, because I'm not so sure it is a matter of personal taste anymore.

[Kyachi]

As far as I'm concerned, Ponder only barely beats out Portent. If both my opponent and I are in topdeck mode, I'd rather have a Portent because I can neuter some draws. However, I really like have Ponder's instant draw... I think that it is a matter of personal preference to a lot of people, and most of that come down to people preferring the stuff that they can get foiled...

[Adan]

As far as I'm concerned, Ponder only barely beats out Portent. If both my opponent and I are in topdeck mode, I'd rather have a Portent because I can neuter some draws. However, I really like have Ponder's instant draw... I think that it is a matter of personal preference to a lot of people, and most of that come down to people preferring the stuff that they can get foiled...

I can't agree with that. If you and your oponent are in the Topdeck mode, Ponder is better than Portent, because it draws the card immediately, so you can cast a Nimble Mongoose or a Goyf just at the same turn where Portent just fails to let you play aggressive. I actually also don't understand why you would rather make the opponents cardquality worse instead of being aggressive.

[Kyachi]

I can't agree with that. If you and your oponent are in the Topdeck mode, Ponder is better than Portent, because it draws the card immediately, so you can cast a Nimble Mongoose or a Goyf just at the same turn where Portent just fails to let you play aggressive. I actually also don't understand why you would rather make the opponents cardquality worse instead of being aggressive.

Yeah, in hindsight, I agree with you. In fact, that whole post of mine doesn't make a lot of sense in the morning. Saturday night posting for the win...

Anyways, there are situations where I'd rather screw a few draws, depending on board position, namely if I have stuff down and I know that my opponent doesn't have anything in hand to deal with that stuff.

[etrigan]

Exactly. If you have SDT on the board, Portent is the better choice a majority of the time.

[Blaukreuz]

ok, let's resume. When it comes to a counterbalanced maindeck, i think most people agree more or less to the lists that proved success (1, 2, 3) in Germany recently:

I tested a lot with 3x Mystic Enforcer, but then they come too often on your hand when you cannot cast'em. So i think 2x is the right number.

That means, we have 3 more or less "free" slots in the maindeck.

Most people play Pithing Needle or Engineered Explosives in the free slots.
What do you think of playing one single Portent/Serum Visions as "Ponder #5"?
Sometimes i have the feeling that i dont have enough cantrips. And we could still easily support 2x Needle or 2x Engineered Explosives.

[Adan]

Yeah, in hindsight, I agree with you. In fact, that whole post of mine doesn't make a lot of sense in the morning. Saturday night posting for the win...

Anyways, there are situations where I'd rather screw a few draws, depending on board position, namely if I have stuff down and I know that my opponent doesn't have anything in hand to deal with that stuff.

I would only do that if your opponent's life is low and he has got a Dark Confidant out so you can stack his Tombstalker on top of his library
No, somehow you are right, portent can also manipulate the Opps Library so you can also get rid of his actual answers he might have. But Ponder is generally better because it's Portent which finds you threats/solutions right there.

That's why I love it. I played my NQGr (German BTS thing) and first played Serum Visions. Serum Visions supports the aggro-plan because it also draws the card immediately, but it's a random card so the threat would only come next turn after you arranged it with Scry.
Portent was better, it could be used as a tutor for the final burnspell or a Force of Will so you have a backup until next turn where you will draw the Mongoose. So Portent was more "controlish".

But Ponder allows you to be aggressive as well as controlish. It's just the perfect mixture between Serum Visions ans Portent I've ever dreamed of (to be a littlebit exaggerating).

[Citrus-God]

I truly have trouble seeing how Serum Visions actually supports a more "Aggro" plan. With much thought, it probably does better in a build with a rediculous amount of cantrips because Serum Visions is insanely good when you're chaining cantrips. If I were to play a more Aggressive cantrip and still have great card quality, I would much rather play Sleight of Hand or Opt... Of course, we have Ponder now; so fuck it, we already have a clear winner.

As for Portent, it is naturally more controllish, but I also liked it in a Bardo-like deck. I say this because I want a Daze in the opening hand, always. Portent maximizes the amount of Dazes and FoWs you see early. Also, I wouldn't expect to drop things until like Turn 3-5 or so...