[Deck] Ichorid

[dlevsApiJ]

I never said, that it was better.
I still think that everybody who have tested this deck for longer time than 3-4 days, now plays the 5c Manabase, for the reasons you've written and so on.

It wasn't directly a question to you, but more in general :).
But ok, then I'm happy that i don't have strange "feelings" (dont know an good english word here..) about the manabase and why play it this way :).

[Muradin]

What do you think of playing 1-2 big creatures as reanimate targets in the board(which ones I am still not sure, for me it's just 2 Akromas) to improve your matchups against aggro decks packing mogg fanatic or burning their own creatures to remove your Bridge from Below? In general I found it not that great of an answer against Goblins to bring in 4 Leylines just for Mogg Fanatic.
(you got to have the leylines in your opening 7, too to have any positive effect of them)
Furthermore you need anti-hate if they are playing Crypts so your boarding decissions may become really difficult. With a third plan(Bridge, Ichorid beatdown, which isnt too good in those special matchups and the reanimator plan) it should also be hard for other decks to remove all your winconditions by extirpating Bridges and Ichorids. For matchups like Landstill we could play the red Akroma as they propably won't be able to get rid of it in time. Thoughts on that?

[myselves]

For matchups like Landstill we could play the red Akroma as they propably won't be able to get rid of it in time. Thoughts on that?

Yes, play huge creatures, but in the SB, you don't need them Mainboard.
And Landstill shouldn't be a difficult matchup, 4c has Deed and EE, but that's it.
What's your oppinion of Homura, Human Ascendant, sure you need a Return, but then Ichorid has Evasion and swings for 5, so okay to board in against Aggro.

And you also can reanimate a Troll, which could be a 15/15 or bigger, to big for Goofy and if your opponent hasn't a StoP.

[Lemuria]

If Landstill is able to deal with an army of zombies, what they can't do with a single creature?

Btw, I agree with Myselves. Reanimate a big bad ass Troll 15/15.

[Muradin]

Quote: If Landstill is able to deal with an army of zombies, what they can't do with a single creature? /Quote
Its to get another win conditions against extirpate. And landstill will often be in a situation where they can deal with a number of zombie tokens with explosives or deed, but they are not likely to ramp up to 8 mana to blow up the red Akroma with deed as they can't swords it.

[Tacosnape]

Okay, I've concluded that any list not running Brainstorm is making a mistake.

I doubt I will ever cut it from my Ichorid lists again after testing. The insane number of plays this allows that you can't do otherwise would take me aeons to list here.

For starters, here's my current maindeck list.

4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Putrid Imp
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Dread Return
1 Cephalid Sage
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Bridge From Below
3 Deep Analysis
2 Breakthrough


Brainstorm's finer points:

1. It's castable off any land in your deck.

2. It draws three cards, meaning it's just slightly less strong for dredging than Breakthrough.

3. It fixes questionable opening hands by digging for a second land that you'll want for Deep Analysis or to activate a Cephalid Coliseum, or by digging for a stronger dredger or a Lion's Eye Diamond on turn one.

4. It can stick Narcomoebas stuck in your hand back atop your library for rapid use.

5. It lets you keep cards in your hand unlike Breakthrough, meaning if you have two Brainstorms, you'll probably get to use both of them unless you crack the Diamond.

6. It does a fantastic job postboard at digging for the cards you sideboard in and the mana you need to cast them.

I cut 2 Breakthrough, 1 Thug, and 1 Deep Analysis for the 4 Brainstorms. This actually increases my total number of draw spells, draw consistency, and my ability to keep going midway through the deck and fight through yard hate, all at a very slight expense in potential explosiveness. Ten Dredgers is passable with Brainstorm digging for them. 3 Deep Analyses has been plenty, and I don't regret cutting down to 2 Breakthrough at all. The 2 Breaks are still stronger than other options, I feel, but the addition of the 4 Brainstorms still leaves me with enough draw power to handle things.

[diffy]

I cut 2 Breakthrough

Did you never encounter the problem of not having Breakthrough as an awesome discard outlet after a mulligan?
I like how you can recover from virtually any bad mulligan by simply discarding your hand and still having the chance to hit another dredger in the top4 cards of your library.
If I were to play Brainstorm, I'd cut more Deed Analysis as they basically fulfill the same job as Brainstorm in conjunction with an LED but I find myself to never have 2 mana to flash it back in the curse of a normal game.

Edit: Taking Lukas Preus's list as a basis, I'd cut the 3 Deed Analysis and one Golgari Thug to try out the Brainstorms.
I've no idea how important DA is as its only good in conjunction with LED.

[Adan]

I cut 2 Breakthrough

I lol'd and then stopped reading

Breakthrough is the sickest card beside Lion's Eye Diamond in the wole deck since it's versatile like hell.
It's random brokeness and discard outlet at the same time. I also don't understand why to add Brainstorms. You can put Bridges and Narcomoebas back to dredge them, but you could also simply discard them since you still got Ichorids.
But I agree with Clemens (Der_imaginäre_Freund).

[spirit of the wretch]

Daniel and Clemens are right.
Cutting Breakthrough seems like a horrible idea. It is the second most powerful card in the deck, let's you dregde for a million, acts as a discard outlet and digs four cards deep (if you cast it for 1).
Nevertheless, Brainstorms are an interessting idea for this deck!
Deep Analyse might be the better card to cut, because you rarely make it to two mana without the LED, so most of the time it's pretty useless.
I will play the deck on sunday, at the GP: Stuttgart Sideevent and maybe I'll give the Brainstorms a shot.

[Bovinious]

Brainstorm seems interesting, but I really dont think cutting Breakthrough is correct...Breakthrough is this decks most powerful spell, and it seems cutting Breakthrough would be counterproductive because Brainstorm would basically be like running more but weaker Breakthroughs. Im also not sure Brainstorm is better than Careful Study, the discard of Study may be better than the extra draw; even for digging, Careful Study seems almost as good because if you miss with Careful Study you still have your topdeck but if you miss with Brainstorm youre out of luck for a few turns. Ill try out both Brainstorm and Careful study as the last 2 cards, I suppose.

[Tacosnape]

I disagree. You're all placing too much value on Breakthrough.

@Der: In order to clarify when Brainstorm would have been Breakthrough, I tested with 2 of the weird reprint Brainstorms from the Coldsnap Precons in their slots. I almost never encountered the lack of an ability to discard due to the fact that A. Occasionally I still had Breakthrough, and B. Brainstorm had a tendency to dig me into LED, Imp, or Breakthrough.

What's more, Turn one Land, Breakthrough, go is a very weak play. It cuts you off from Deep Analysis and ever having another useful, playable card in your hand. What's more, unlike the stronger openings, it leaves you with around 10 cards in your graveyard, from which you must Dredge 6 a turn at best and form some sort of decent clock.

Additionally, multiple Breakthroughs in your opening hand is completely useless unless you're waiting until turn 2 and casting it for 1. This is the only thing Brainstorm sucks at duplicating. The bright side to this is that if you're doing this, a Brainstorm is almost just as effective as the second Breakthrough. Breakthrough might dredge for four, but Brainstorm does it for three and leaves you the option of keeping your other weapons in your hand.

As for cutting Deep Analysis, if you do this, there's absolutely no point whatsoever in running Brainstorm. Brainstorm's strongest point is its ability to hit you a second land if you need one.

Brainstorm makes the deck more consistent. I actually found my Goldfish time on average to be better with only 2 Breakthrough. While my number of turn ones dropped, so did my number of turn 5+'s.

[Lemuria]

But it seems like you are slowing down a little bit.

Do you still get turn 2/3 kills often?

[Tacosnape]

But it seems like you are slowing down a little bit.

Do you still get turn 2/3 kills often?

Yes. I don't get as many 1's, but if we're talking strictly in terms of kills by turn 3 or earlier, I get far more with Brainstorm than without it. I sacrifice the occasional turn one insanotron for abolishing a lot of the turn 5/turn 6 problems I get otherwise.

You're slowing down a bit, but you're actually increasing your ability to maintain your barrage in the midgame, so that by turn two or three you generally catch up. Sometimes I get Brainstorms on turn one into LED/Second Land that let me go crazy the next turn. It's also worth noting that Brainstorm on turn one will sometimes -hit- Breakthrough, letting you do insane shit next turn.

Additionally, Brainstorm with LED is only slightly weaker than Breakthrough with LED. One less dredge and the inability to discard your dredgers afterwards. Breakthrough's clearly stronger with a godhand (I might go back to testing 3, but I doubt it), but Brainstorm will set you up for more semi-godly plays in the second and third turns.

It's also worth noting that when you do get the Breakthroughs, you can always make the ungodly stupid play of 2nd Land, LED, Breakthrough for 0, in Response Brainstorm, in Response crack LED, and dredge 7, plus nailing a Deep Analysis midway through, and essentially guaranteeing yourself a turn 2 win if you don't completely whiff on rolling into dredgers.

[Bovinious]

Brainstorm does seem good, but it just doesnt seem to me as powerful a spell as Breakthrough, I really cant see how anyone can justify cutting Breakthroughs at all...

Also like I asked earlier, why is Brainstorm better than Careful Study? To quote myself from above:

The discard of Study may be better than the extra draw; even for digging, Careful Study seems almost as good because if you miss with Careful Study you still have your topdeck but if you miss with Brainstorm youre out of luck for a few turns.

You can pull the same kind of LED brokeness w/ Study as Brainstorm, and you can actually take advantage of the discard unlike the put 2 back.

[Tacosnape]

Careful Study's draw two is weaker than Brainstorm's draw three. Careful Study can't put a Narcomoeba back atop your library (This is pretty crucial, as more Narcomoebas will let you catch back up in your momentum for not running Breakthrough). And Careful Study doesn't dig as deeply when you need an answer.

And no you can't pull the same LED Brokenness with Study as you can Brainstorm. Brainstorm's an instant, meaning it allows you to combo with Breakthrough/LED or 2nd Brainstorm/LED for the ridiculous Dredge 6-or-7 followed by the Deep Analysis off the LED for the near automatic turn 2 win.

Study just felt weak to me. I don't like draw two-or-less cards that have to be in my opening hand (This is also why I think Street Wraith sucks ass in Ichorid). The only draw two I run is Analysis, because it works from my Graveyard. Everything else (Brainstorm, Coliseum, Breakthrough) draws three or more.

[xsockmonkeyx]

I think its possible to fit both Brainstorm and Breakthrough as 4 of's into the main if you cut back both the Dread Return and the Deep Analysis engines. I was goldfishing around today with this list and it seemed pretty consistent.

4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Putrid Imp

4 Brainstorm
4 Breakthrough
4 Cephalid Coliseum

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug

4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Bridge From Below

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Deep Analysis

2 Dread Return
1 Cephalid Sage
1 Flame-Kin Zealot

[Tacosnape]

I think its possible to fit both Brainstorm and Breakthrough as 4 of's into the main if you cut back both the Dread Return and the Deep Analysis engines. I was goldfishing around today with this list and it seemed pretty consistent.

4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Putrid Imp

4 Brainstorm
4 Breakthrough
4 Cephalid Coliseum

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug

4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Bridge From Below

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Deep Analysis

2 Dread Return
1 Cephalid Sage
1 Flame-Kin Zealot

That's a fine list except for the 3 Putrid Imp part. Putrid Imp is ungodly strong. It's your best discard outlet, it ditches to Ichorid in the yard, flashes Therapy/Return, and beats for 2 evasively each turn in aggro stalemates while your zombie tokens hold down the fort. I think I would cut a Thug to go back up to the fourth Imp in that list, assuming you want to keep the 4 Breaks. 10 Dredgers isn't as bad as it seems when you're running the extra dig and draw.

[dlevsApiJ]

Isn't Careful Study better then Brainstorm?

And the list looks very cool, with the 4th Imp :).

Mvg

[xsockmonkeyx]

Yes, the 3rd Thug and 4th Putrid Imp slots can be switched because Imp is awesome. I had it that way for a bit but that extra dredger is nice with all of the draw 3/4 spells because you tend to want a dredger in your opening hand. Jury is still out on that one.

I really like the 8 Blue draw spells, makes opening hands with LED/Draw3,4 turn 1 bustedness much more likely.

[myselves]

Better cut one Ichorid, you won't need four.

Brainstorm is an amazing idea, I've tested it a few times now, but I won't play it instead of Breakthrough, cause Breakthrough is better and nearly like LED+BS.

@dlevsApiJ: No, it isn't, Tacosnape had explained why three posts before yours.