I agree with you first two points. However, Needle deals with Explosives better than chalice does. Not only can explosives be played around chalice, like sockmonkey said, but chalice can't deal with explosives that have already hit play. Yes, chalice is free, but is it worth sacrificing the power of needle over it?Originally Posted by Der_imaginäre_Freund
Sidenote: In a meta crawling with TES/Belcher, I can see why Chalice would get the SB slot. For the sake of my argument, this is not the case.
EE can also get around Chalice for 0 if they payfor it via Wasteland/Factory/Monastery or whatever, so even then Needle seems like the better call to me.
Yeah, thats what I was getting at.
On another note, is Brainstorm/Careful Study even needed? I've been doing fine in testing with just 4 Breathrough, 3 Deep Anal, and 4 Coliseum. I cut the other draw in favor of a 4th Thug, among other things.
I believe so, once Deep Analysis is reduced to 1x and Careful Study is added, the deck is more consistent. The deck functions with ?x Deep Analysis and 0x Careful Study, but that doesn't mean that there isn't room for structural improvements.
The good thing abut Chalice is, that you drop it on your first turn and it stop both: Crypt and Explosives. No matter what they boarded you dealt with both of them.EE can also get around Chalice for 0 if they pay
The bad thing is, that it's fucking useless against Belcher compared to a Needle (this is why I will probably will swith back to the Needles).
It would be super secret tech to show up with a magnivore, fueled by deep analysis and breakthrough and maybe careful study dealing a whopping approx. 8 damage!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Seriously, am I right when I'm saying that nonland, non super broken yard effects (and that broken isn't goyf broken) should be in this deck. WTF is people suggesting mortivore and goyf? Mortivore might be good if it had haste, but it hasn't. And even if it had, it would definitely not belong in this deck. Goyf doesn't belong in every deck! Dread Returning a goyf would be the far most worst play. The deck's nearly perfect as it is right now, whichever little twists on it that occurs. If my meta wans't packing leylines and crypts n SB and some even in MB, I would play it, that's for sure.
Ive respected what you had to say earlier about Careful Study and how its clearly better than Brainstorm and all, but seriously NO ONE else is cutting DA down to 1 or whatever you say, having 1 is terrible because if you cant count on hitting it when you have UU or UUU floating so theres really no point of it at all. You are right though the deck does not need Careful Study or for that matter DA, but the deck does function a lot better with DA and probably from extra draw spells in the form of Careful Study, as well.
Why do people always say stuff like this? Your first turn is NOT fast enough, you WILL be on the draw, so Chalice is not an answer if they draw either of those...having to just pack it in game 2 is awful when you could just play Needle, name Crypt or EE, and play around the second of those 2 IF they even drew it...
Because Needle stops things they've in their opening hand which Chalice doesn't, but Chalice stops topdecked solutions much better than Needle.
And why not play around the first one they put on the board and prevent all the others. Sounds like a pretty good plan to me. It's much easier to play around a known threat than around a random topdeck.
When I say 1 Deep Analysis I don't necessarily mean only 1, rather start with 1 and then increase the number of them until you're consistently casting the card off of Breakthrough + LED, Careful Study + LED or Cephalid Coliseum + LED chains with out consistently drawing it as a blank.
Whether or not that number is 1, 2, 3 or 4 isn't the issue, my point is that the deck shouldn't assume that 4 Deep Analysis is the base line and then cut back, but assume 1 Deep Analysis is the base line and then add more.
Even if the correct number is 1, and I'm not saying it is, saying that there's no point to 1 at all is just wrong. On average the deck is going to see 25% of its deck after Careful Study, Lion's Eye Diamond and two dredgers, if 1 Deep Analysis gives the deck a double Time Walk 1 in 4 times, that's significant. If it weren't significant, I wouldn't have bothered with it at all. There's a mathematical solution to the problem, I'm just not certain how to solve it.
Deep Analysis, like Dread Return, is a modular slot, and I'm just arguing perspectives, not absolutes.
How does Chalice stop topdeck solutions better than needle? Needle stops a topdecked crypt as easily as a chalice does.
Needle prevents topdecks also, granted just of the card you named. Why would I want to play around the first Crypt when I can Needle it and not need to worry at all? You may have to worry about top-decked EE but thats really not a big deal, theyll kill ur tokens, next turn youll get more tokens, doesnt seem that bad unless somehow theyre winning that turn, the tradeoff is definately worth it because if your opponent draws Crypt in his opening grip, which some people mull to, your going to feel pretty dumb you have Chalice and not Needle, almost every time.
Fair enough, however I still think the minimum number of DAs to run is 3, POSSIBLY 2, but I see what you were going for with adding rather than subtracting.
@Spirit of the Wretch
You did not play Cephalid Sage in your list. Why is that? Did you ever miss it?
The Sage always feels a little bit like "win more" to me and I wanted to improve the consitancy of the deck (by playing BS). This came at the cost of explosivness, of course. And as the DR package gets boarded out almost every single game, I decided to cut it down to the absolute minimum.
I missed the Sage when facing Belcher. Combo is the only matchup where he really shines. In every other MU you're usually able to kill fast enough without him, but that one turn you might get from reanimating him against combo.decs is crucial. I do however like Gamble/BS a lot better in this slot, as it is simply good against every deck.
@Bovinious:
Especially against Grow I like to have the option of slow-dredging. You can play around a Crypt quite ok this way. The problem with slow-dredging is, that it's ..., well ... slow. So you might suffer some serious Goyf (aka Mr 6/7 second turn in this MU) beatings. A topdecked EE (to remove your blockers) can mean GG.
As I mentioned the only real advantage I see is that Needle can shut down Belcher (an issue in my metagame), which Chalice can't.
How is Needle or Crypt relevent to slow-dredging? You can do that either way but possibly wouldnt have to on the draw if you have Needle, while you would need to with Chalice. Topdecked EE will very rarely lose you the game unless your in some serious trouble otherwise, that statement is almost laughable to me. All EE does is kill your zombies which you will get back next turn, its basically either a Fog or a Turnabout. Id be much more worried about Deeds which can kill their creatures too removing your Bridges so you cant make a new army next turn, and only Needle stops Deed. Chalice is probably better in a meta infested with Belcher/Storm combo because stopping LED/Mox/Petal is probably better than just stopping a Belcher they may not even have, but again your Chalice may never even get to hit the table game 2...I still havnt seen a compelling argument to run Chalice over Needle unless your meta is packed with fast combo, yet some people run Chalice even when there is not much combo, and I dont see why.
Because Chalice= $5.00 and Needle= $15.00? I know that's why I bought a playset of Chalice first anyway. I would actually prefer the Needles but I can't afford them and I have no way to trade for them where I am. The last time I went to a tournament nobody had any for trade either.
See I think that is a good answer, Id much rather someone play something slightly worse for monetary reasons and admit it than have people just claim the cheaper card is better to justify their decision. I guess to an extent this deck is a budget deck because the only expensive thing MD is the LEDs, so I can see people not wanting to pay for Needles, but like you said Needle is usually still better if you can afford it.
Combo aside, one of the reasons I run Chalice of the Void instead of Pithing Needle in the SB is that I don't plan on SBing game 2. If the opponent resolves Tormod's Crypt, then the deck can play thru' it, if the opponent doesn't have Tormod's Crypt, then the deck can operate at full speed with out having removed threats for answers, answers that may or may not be the correct answers depending on the opponent's SB. Game 3, Chalice of the Void is superior to Pithing Needle because Chalice of the Void is free, the opponent has revealed Tormod's Crypt is in his deck and it also prevents Engineered Explosives from clearing Zombie Tokens as an added bonus.
Ichorid is a tempo deck, so being able to do things for free is significant. I don't think Chalice of the Void is better than Pithing Needle or Pithing Needle is better than Chalice of the Void, it's just a question of how you approach your match ups and SBing. I figure game 1 is in the bag, and game 2 is a crap shoot, so game 3 needs to have the most efficient answers, ergo Chalice of the Void instead of Pithing Needle.
I played Ichorid at the Belgian Champs, and I was 13th (129 players).
I played this list:
// Lands
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
4 [5E] City of Brass
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine
// Creatures
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
3 [RAV] Golgari Thug
4 [TO] Ichorid
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
4 [TO] Putrid Imp
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
1 [RAV] Flame-Kin Zealot
// Spells
4 [TO] Breakthrough
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [OD] Careful Study
3 [TO] Deep Analysis
2 [TSP] Dread Return (what should I cut for the 3rd?)
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 4 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 2 [JU] Ray of Revelation
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void (because I have no Peedles)
There was a Problem with the Sage, the guy I bought it from send me the wrong Cephalid, so I played 1 Careful Study more.. (normally I play 2).
This were my matchups:
* 2-0 Some stupid Casual deck
* 2-1 TES
Lose game 1 because of a turn 1 winn, turn 2 board in CotV, mulled to 5 with a CotV and later a Therapy was enough, then boarded in Leylines, so I hoped I could slow him down (for his Rite of Flame, Cabal Ritual and IGG) and then Cotv/Therapy. In my opening hand were 2 Leylines and 2 Cotv, and later some Therapy-flashbacks. I'm so lucky
* 2-1 Grow with black (boarded in Vapors cause I expected he should board in Leylines, but he boarded in Crypts, so there is the loss from, the first Crypt -> Vapor -> Therapy, but there came a second out of his Confidant
* 0-2 DragonStompy (i played against this deck before the tournament, and I lways lose to it, also other Ichorid players Imet at the tournament lose of it. The first time i saw it i thought it was a good matchup, do I play wrong against this deck? Or slows turn 1 Trini/Chalice/Moon (they always play them if I would play a Cephalid land) you to much down, with there fast kill..
* 2-0 Aluren
* 1-2 Elves (very strange, i won game 1. Game 2 he mulled to 5, I kept a hand with 3 Therapys, a land and some dredgers, I thought if I Therapy myself for dredgers and Therapy him 2 times for creature I will win. But he was still to fast (when I look back on it, I dont know why I kept this hand :S..), and game 3 I mulled to 5, and his Crypt was to much..)
* 2-0 The mirror :D, always nice to win the mirror with 2-0... Game 2 was pretty cool, we both knew we boarded in Leylines, so i asked him how many Leylines he had,, we both had 2 Leylines, but end of his turn I went Vapor, he kopied him, but I was faster, because i could begin one turn faster (I already had a PImp on the table).
I'm very happy with the build, i didnt missed the Sage, but that was luck.. Also the Cotv's are very good I think, normally 1 Crypt shouldnt be very problematic, you dont have a land always (or dont want to use it), it give you a change VS combo, and if it comes to late, you always have a Game 3. So I keep them instead of Peedles.
Is there someone how you can play the best against DragonStompy? Cause I think this shouldnt be a very hard matchup.
Mvg
ps. sorry of my bad english..
*Team Haste!*
Congratulations on your results. I've seen you play in the tournament and had been wondering were the Sage was. You did much better than the guy using my Ichorid in the tournament. I'm really glad you did this good because people underestimate the deck in the benelux.
I believe beating dragon stompy game 1 should be rather easy, they can't really beat recurring Ichorids that bring tokens to the game. If they have a clock under 5 turns you should win this. Or just combo win is they don't have trinisphere.
Game 2 will be a lot harder due to crypts en probably pyroclasms. Go for the combo win if they don't drop the trinisphere otherwise just hope for the best.
Game 3 side in your chalice en drop it turn 1 on 0. Just play trough the pyroclasm.
It won't be easy but I believe it won't be that hard either.
#
Against DS it's a big difference between the Matchup pre- and postboard, preboard it shouldn't be a problem, but postboard you have to play through 3sphere, Keg, Crypts, and he know what you are playing, so he will try to put you under pressure.
So preboard it's nearly autowin, postboard close to an autoloss.
There will never be another me
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