[Deck] Death and Taxes

[Finn]

Versus, it does not get counters.

Oblivion Ring sounds very good to me. It's like Oblation only it doesn't suck.

[MrSoze]

Has anyone considered Mirror Entity in the deck?

The obvious benefits are mostly because he can be vialed out against Massacre/Pyroclasm and save the board, plus he provides a better clock against goyf based thresh, since he's an awesome vial card to ambush against mongoose/goyf if you don't establish control early enough, and he can drop an elbow on a gobbo rush. Plus, if you hit your drops along the way, you have a lethal alpha on turn 4 with the tap out if necessary.

The synergy between it and Karakas and the more controlling aspects of the deck are a problem, I admit, but that's why I consider it more of a sideboard card in the end.

Might be too much of a stretch, but it's one I've considered on this deck.

[Xurcks]

@MrSoze: I tried Mirror Entity,but this deck doesn't have enough creatures/mana to fully abuse it.Also,it forces you to overextend and open up for 2-1,3-1 too often.You would need at least 4 mana to make it worth the trouble,and that is difficult to achieve(the deck uses Cataclysm also).All other creatures in the deck are either better P/T ratio(Serra Avenger,Isamaru,Grunt) or utility(Cloaker,Mangara) so I have dismissed him for now.

[Curby]

Hmm, you can hide your own creature or Vial/Jitte with Oblivion Ring so it'll come back into play after Cataclysm, right? If so, the deck with fun internal synergies gets another with the use of O-Ring. Yeay!

[Nihil Credo]

Hmm, you can hide your own creature or Vial/Jitte with Oblivion Ring so it'll come back into play after Cataclysm, right?

Only if you have a second enchantment in play when you Cataclysm; otherwise, the Ring will stick around.

[Finn]

Actually, if the deck had other enchantments in it I would not consider O-ring. But since the only enchantments anyone ever seems to use is Seal of Cleansing, and since I think I am going to use this in the sb in place of the Seal/disenchant/Abolish spot, there is no problem at all.

BTW, Cataclysm rarely nabs your own creatures. You spend too much time unsummoning them and making your opponent want them dead. Consequently, you usually do not have many in play. For the games in which you do, well, you are winning!

[Curby]

What's the consensus on a reasonable minimum number of creatures in mono-white D&T? I think I might try fitting two O-Rings in my main, which means I might drop a critter or two. Maybe a 20/20/20 split would work:

4 Serra Avenger
3 Isamaru
3 Silver Knight
3 Stonecloaker
3 Mangara
2 Jotun Grunt
2 Metagame slots (Samurai of the Pale Curtain/Auriok Champion/etc. or more of the above)

4 Aether Vial
4 Mana Tithe
4 StP
3 Cataclysm
3 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Oblivion Ring

20 Land

SB idea:
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Jotun Grunt
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Tividar of Thorn
3 True Believer
4 Thorn of Amethyst? (I don't need much anti-combo tech here)

Do we really need 4 Mana Tithes? Perhaps this could drop to 3 for another metagamed critter or more removal/utility. On the other hand, double-tithing someone is pretty fun. When I get Wastelands/Ports I may turn it into a 21st land (a Plains) to help ensure WW in the opening hand.

Anyway, I like how the Ring takes care of the Disenchant slot, as well as the possible Condemn slot. Thanks for the idea, Xurcks!

[CleverPetriDish]

I just played a bunch of games on MWS - mostly against actual top decks

Oblivion Ring was very good against Thresh in particular. I got his counterbalance twice (I think only the Grips cost three in there). And another time he FoW'ed it targeting Dragon. That is quite a pedigree. Big thumbs up for me. The Thresh matchup just got even better. I just don't know why this deck is not seen more widely.

@kirb, I have my 4th Mana Tithe in the sb. You really want the opponent to see it g1. That way, if it isn't combo you can side them out for g2 and still have the tax effect. I think you should cut the Siver Knights. We may have over compensated for Goblins back then, but you see less now. Try Samurais in that slot. They own Ichy and Affinity, piss off lots of other decks like xxLands, Stax, and Thresh, and they are still pretty good beaters.

[Curby]

I have my 4th Mana Tithe in the sb. You really want the opponent to see it g1. That way, if it isn't combo you can side them out for g2 and still have the tax effect. I think you should cut the Siver Knights. We may have over compensated for Goblins back then, but you see less now. Try Samurais in that slot.

If I want them to see it game 1, wouldn't I be running 4 in the main with the thought of siding some out in most matchups?

At least half the importance of Knight is First Strike, not necessarily Pro-Red. With Burn a DTW now, random Red aggro variants floating around, and Goblins still the second most popular deck at Worlds, Pro-Red will likely remain useful. But Jitte on a First Striker is just nuts. I wonder if it's even better than Bushido. Perhaps another First Striker can be used in its place if you're in a low-Red meta. Or as you say, just run more Samurai.

Does anyone think 20 critters in this deck is too low?

[Xurcks]

My current list for the deck is this:(need to get MWS again after hd formatting soon ^^)

4 Serra Avenger
3 Isamaru
4 Stonecloaker
4 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
3 Mangara
1 Commander Eesha xD

3 Umezawa Jitte
4 Æther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Cataclysm
3 Oblivion Ring
4 Mana Tithe

1 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port/Wasteland(can't decide,almost cutting mana tithe to fit both :P)
11 Plains

SB:

4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Tormod's Crypt(Meta choice:could be glowrider\true believer\silver knight\intrepid hero\kataki\preacher\spectral lynx)
4 Jotun Grunt
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Umezawa Jitte
1 Cataclysm

Opinions?

[C-Aleric]

1 Commander Eesha xD

I realize this is probably something that is just there for fun. But when I want to have fun in a white deck that already annoys the hell out of my opponent, I go to Windborn Muse. I also run Wg D&T still (so in terms of defense, my 'Goyfs hold the fort). Since I've had no trouble maintaining the splash, I will probably keep it. Muse sits tight in my sideboard, just in case massive aggro is heading my way. I used to keep a couple Ghostly Prison's in my board, so replacing those with Windborn Muse, and running Oblivion Ring as a 2-of main deck seems like the obvious choice. I've liked having Grunts in the board and Tarmo's main, since generally 'Goyf turns out to be better. He eats swords like a champion as well, giving Manangra his chance to shine :)

I apologize if the green splash has already been ruled out. However, I only really run 'Goyfs and K-Grips. When I fool around casually, it's worth bringing in Quirion Ranger, for the "Holy shit, what just happened?" factor.

[Xurcks]

@C-Aleric: yeah,it's was just put in for fun factor as I was in doubt of what to put in the last slot,but I'm almost cutting an Oblivion Ring from the main to the side in place of the Cataclysm or one of the crypts to put another one.It has actually been pretty good in my testings and with Karakas backup it was hard as hell to remove,keeping sea drakes,goyfs,tombstalkers,arc-sloggers,pit-dragons,piledrivers,etc at bay giving me time to win matchs otherwise i shouldn't win(add jitte and it becomes even better).And if it performs badly in one matchup(combo,etc),well,the sideboard is there for him to move out.Windborn Muse problem is that if they pay,they can just attack with one big critter and there's nothing she can do about it.
About the splash,i don't have goyf or the savannah's to test,so I sticked to the Mono White build,which have been performing quite well for me during my testings.

[PIXIE]

Well i am currently running the green splash. Mr.Teeg and captain ugly are just to good to resist. I have no maindeck manatithe anymore it comes in and out of the deck every few weeks (as soon as they catch on it comes out and when they forget it comes back) . Here is a little taste

4x Avenger
3x Mr. teeg
4x goyf
2x grunt
3x mangara
3x isamaru
4x knight of the meadowgrain
4x stp
2x cataclysm
4x jitte
4x aether vial
3x stonecloaker
4x windswept heath
4x savanna
1x forest
4x wasteland
5x plains
2x flaggstones

S.B
3x samuri
4x thorn of amithist
3x abolish
2x O-ring (was more and 2 where in the MD)
3x powder keg

Well thats it.. I have won the last handfull of westnmass events with it. The knight of the meadowgrain is awsome!! Firststrike+lifelink+jitte= faced people. I like the deck with at least 24 guys in it.Oh and b4 u ask why catalsm is in with teeg, karakas him at EOT then drop the bomb.
Goyf is good this is a fact.....You will see him almost everyother match at a cometitive event.I know this isn't a goyf deck (like What the F@ck i have just been dealing with him all the time) so i will just use him. Goyf blocks goyf good, but my goyf normaly has a jitte in hand, thresh goyf doesn't.
If you want to make people mad start running condemn for a while. Playing against 8 stp's is not fun. I had some in the md and 2 in board. It really shines when your STP gets Extripated,and they swing with goyf and you condemn it. Hahahahahahahaha Later!!!

Hahahahahahahahaha i hate the auto sign in this is my girl's profile i didn't even notice!! hahahahahahaha
PHAERIMMARCHLORD.........team necro the team you have to hate!!!!
hahahahahahaha sorry for the wrong profile post!!!! hahahahaha

[Galroth]

Phaerimm

First - As much as I enjoy hearing from your expertise concerning Death and Taxes. Your posts hurt my eyes.

Second - Your girlfriend is a fox! Yeowzers.

A distant Third - Can you expound on how the green splash is pulling for you. Does it really help that much? Are your combo matches hurting due to it? And what of MeadowGrain? Is it really better than say Samurai, or Silver Knight? It looks interesting, but not superior from a cursory glance.

[gosumog]

hey guys im trying to build for thresh-baseruption/combo meta, mainly thresh

my friends build runs moms and sofis, but i prefer jittes and SoPC, and im going to be editing it for the event.

what are the STAPLE cards in taxes? what cards are matchup specific? and why do people run SoPC and grunt? (i do too, it just looks bad on paper) is there some synergy im missing elsewhere?

concerning removal we only run 4x stp, deciding on mangara/karakas ammount. why do people run 4 karakas? isnt that overkill and mana screw potential?

[Finn]

You also play Saffi Eriksdotter from time to time. But from what I saw of that meta, it seems that tricks of that sort are the name of the game. And there is no arguing with results. You have a lot of anti-aggro stuff, and I suppose that is good when the common combos are all graveyard dependant (for which the deck is well equipped to handle).

But I warn other people reading this that you are taking your chances when you get too creative with the basic strengths ofthe deck. Phaerimm's Wg deck, for example, does not have Karakas at all, so there is a lot given up for access to stuff like Wasteland and Gofy. He can do this stuff because it keeps his opponents (who see him and this deck almost weekly) on their toes.

hey guys im trying to build for thresh-baseruption/combo meta, mainly thresh

my friends build runs moms and sofis, but i prefer jittes and SoPC, and im going to be editing it for the event.

what are the STAPLE cards in taxes? what cards are matchup specific? and why do people run SoPC and grunt? (i do too, it just looks bad on paper) is there some synergy im missing elsewhere?

concerning removal we only run 4x stp, deciding on mangara/karakas ammount. why do people run 4 karakas? isnt that overkill and mana screw potential?

Lemme 'splain

Ones
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
3 Mana Tithe
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial

Twos
3 True Believer
4 Serra Avenger
2 Jotun Grunt
3 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
3 Umezawa's Jitte

Threes
3 Stonecloaker
3 Mangara of Corondor

Fours
3 Cataclysm

Land
4 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
3 Flagstones of Trokair
11 Plains

sb:
3 Glowrider
1 Mana Tithe
4 Orim's Chant
1 Jotun Grunt
3 Tivadar of Thorn
3 Oblivion Ring

This is my general purpose build. It is strong against anything with graveyard dependence, (including Threshold) as almost all of the hate is in the main. If you are expecting CounterTop Thresh to be a big factor (does Baseruption usually have this feature?) I think I would put O.rings in the Mana Tithe spot. Mana Tithe is really only for the combo matchup anyway, and the Oblivion Rings have been very, very good to me so far.

The basics are:

-Mangara
-Karakas
-Stonecloaker
-Cataclysm
-Jitte
-graveyard hate (I have Stonecloaker, Samurai of the Pale Curtain, and Jotun Grunt in this role)
-mana denial (I have Rishidan Port, Mana Tithe, Cataclysm, Mangara, and Glowrider for this)
Everything else is a metagame call.

In general, using creatures for the disruption (Glowrider instead of Thorn of Amethyst, Grunt instead of Tormod's Crypt, etc.) creates versatility in place of speed. This situation means that you want either a Mana Tithe or Orim's Chant in the opening draw against TES, Belcher, Breakfast, etc. It gives you a turn or two to get one of the creature hosers down. If that happens you can attack while delaying them more so you are usually in pretty good shape.

Samurai and Grunt together is not such a big deal.

Four Karakas' is occasionally a problem, but I sacrifice it to Cataclysm a lot. And the opponent simply must do something about it in a LOT of games or they are going to lose.

[Euler]

Here's a build I'm getting together at the moment, how does it look?

2 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 Mana Tithe
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
3 True Believer
4 Serra Avenger
3 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
3 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Stonecloaker
3 Mangara of Corondor
3 Cataclysm
2 Disenchant
4 Karakas
3 Rishadan Port
3 Flagstones of Trokair
12 Plains

Sideboard
4 Silver Knight
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Tivadar of Thorn
2 Abolish
3 Orim's Chant

I was also hoping to find out what a blue splash for this deck would look like. Mana Tithe would turn into Daze, and some of my Beaters would become Meddling mages, but I'd want to fit some Brainstorm in there to smooth out draws, any thoughts?

[Galroth]

It looks... standard. Which means it's pretty solid. In fact, only a few cards off my build.

Suggestion box:

- Up the Isamaru count by 1. He's good by himself, and even better with Karakas.

- If you bring in Brainstorm, you're fine to cut Cataclysm by 1 since you've got a way to dig for it. Likewise with Stonecloaker and possibly even Karakas, though I would be hesitant to do so on the latter accounts. Grunt is probably removed for Meddling Mage, along with a Samurai and... something else. The need for grunt is lessened because Brainstorm lets you sift for StP to off Tarmogoyf. And graveyard combo is mitigated slightly by Daze and Meddling Mage.

- Disenchant is probably better as Oblivion Ring. It's more versatile and only slightly more expensive. If not this, then atleast sideboard Disenchant for the matchups where it really shines. Most of the time you'll be wishing it was a threat or creature removal.

[Maëlig]

Deleted

[Maëlig]

What do you guys think of knight of the holy nimbus in the silver knight spot (I know some of you don't run this guy anymore, but well) in a more controllish metagame? After doing some testing, I found him pretty good. He kills mangooses when attacking (unlike silver knight), chumpblocks goyf in the first turns (good tempo in general), can't be blocked by hordes of 1/1s (stupid elves or others) and holds on the field with EE or deed (which are sometimes tough). Plus he's great with all the mana denial (cataclysm with him + jitte on the field = almost autowin).

EDIT : I've been looking for a way to include the mini-rebel engine composed of lin + knight/CoK in a competitive deck lately, and D&T seems to be the best one for it.
The idea is to add 3 lin-sivvi, 4 knight of the holy nimbus and 1 children of korlis. Knight is playable by itself and CoK is never useless either. Lin allows to fetch a knight each turn (eot of course), thus creating an insane amount of CA. Lin + CoK is a soft-lock comparable to genesis + frog and can single-handedly break EtW or tendrils-based combos. To sum up, lin + knight is good against aggro-control, and lin + CoK is good against aggro and combo.
I wasn't quite sure what to remove from the deck to add the engine, since there were little free slots. I've started by moving cataclysm to SB (since it is not very good against combo and aggro-control), but then you have less flexibility for your side, which is not great. What more, this meant a total of 9 3-mana creatures, which I felt was a little too much.
So I decided to remove stonecloaker instead. It was a tough choice, because he can be usefull in alot of situations, but I felt he was the weak spot of the deck. I've never been really happy to see him (especially in multiples), although he saved me sometimes. Also, I felt that the deck had enough GY-hate with jotun and SotPC. The only problem with him leaving was that it made mangara much worse, since you could only bounce him with karakas now. The fact that Lin is a legend also increased the reliance on karakas. So I decided to digg-up an old favorite, namely weathered wayfarer. Now, I know that this guy has been discussed and dismissed, but I think he should get a second chance. It increases stability, establishes a soft-lock with wasteland and gives you twice as much chances to hit karakas (he's also good with abolish in side). And I never really liked isamaru anyways.
Btw, I thought about the anti-synergy Lin + knight + cataclysm, but it's actually not that bad. You can cast cataclysm once Lin is in play, that start dropping knights after that.
So here's the decklist :
10 plains
4 flagstones of trokair
3 karakas
4 wasteland
3 cataclysm
4 serra avenger
3 mangara
4 weathered wayfarer
4 knight of the holy nimbus
3 lin sivvi, defiant hero
1 children of korlis
4 swords to plowshares
4 aether vial
3 umezawa's jitte
4 mana tithe

I'm still testing it, but the results so far have been fairly positive, especially against aggro-control decks (if Lin is not rapidly handled it's usually gg).
What do you gys think?