[Deck] Spring Tide

[deviant]

When I played spring tide, there where two things that worried me:

1) Solidarity.

2) it has no way to control the tempo of the game, and so I was often forced to combo out on turn three and fizzle.

So i switched to solidarity, but I'ts matchups against the likes of goblins are a real anti turn-on when it was a complete bye with my old spring tide-build.

Hence: Enter maindeck brain freezes ( i NEVER EVER needed them with all that draw, untap and tutoring power to be maindecked )
And enter remand for tempo and stack tricks.

Goldfishing has been good to me, but I have no way of ACTUALLY testing it.
So I present it to you gyus, to hear your opinions and wish that someone else might actually be able to test the build and make it better.

A "rough scetch" of solidarity-spring tide hybrid:

3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
10 Island
4 Cloud of Faeries
3 Snap
2 Turnabout
4 High Tide
3 Ponder
3 Brainstorm
4 Ideas Unbound
3 Meditate
3 Merchant Scroll
3 Force of Will
2 Serum Visions
2 Cunning Wish
1 Flash of Insight
1 Twincast
2 Brain Freeze
3 Remand

It looks ugly cause I can't tell which cantrips are best now and how many tutors are needed and so on. It's a different deck so it has to be tested from the beginning, sadly I'm unable

Thanks for reading.

[Fons]

When I played spring tide, there where two things that worried me:

1) Solidarity.

2) it has no way to control the tempo of the game, and so I was often forced to combo out on turn three and fizzle.

So i switched to solidarity, but I'ts matchups against the likes of goblins are a real anti turn-on when it was a complete bye with my old spring tide-build.

Hence: Enter maindeck brain freezes ( i NEVER EVER needed them with all that draw, untap and tutoring power to be maindecked )
And enter remand for tempo and stack tricks.

Goldfishing has been good to me, but I have no way of ACTUALLY testing it.
So I present it to you gyus, to hear your opinions and wish that someone else might actually be able to test the build and make it better.

A "rough scetch" of solidarity-spring tide hybrid:

3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
10 Island
4 Cloud of Faeries
3 Snap
2 Turnabout
4 High Tide
3 Ponder
3 Brainstorm
4 Ideas Unbound
3 Meditate
3 Merchant Scroll
3 Force of Will
2 Serum Visions
2 Cunning Wish
1 Flash of Insight
1 Twincast
2 Brain Freeze
3 Remand


It looks ugly cause I can't tell which cantrips are best now and how many tutors are needed and so on. It's a different deck so it has to be tested from the beginning, sadly I'm unable

Thanks for reading.

IMO
-2 Serum Visions
-1 Flash of Insight
-1 Twincast
-1 Remand
+2 Turnabout
+1 Cunning Wish
+1 Ponder
+1 Brainstorm

I've been playin' a different build of spring tide on MWS and i was wondering if anyone thinks Pact of Negation would be a good replacement for FOW (I'm Poor and can't afford them, I also play 15 Islands.)

I would rather have a ponder or brainstorm over serum visions because with visions you get a blind draw that can sometimes not help while with Brainstorm or ponder you pick what you get.

I've noticed that turnabout is necessary for the deck so either play 3 +1 in the board or just play 4 MD.

Cunning wish is handy :) (post your SB if your going to play it)

Remand is neat but im not sure if its needed.

[deviant]

Now that's just "the basic list" then.

This was supposed to be a little different, just to see if it works.

BTW, ponder and BS are usually better cards, yes.
But they often leave shit on top of the deck when you try to find the third land drop.
Serum visions checks if there's a land on your top 4 cards.
It's quite good when you're trying to hit your third land drop to avoid having to combo off with only two.
And you should not cut a single land, I would rather add some.

By the way, Turnabout is at it's best when tapping your opponents permanents, not your own. It's a necessity, but it's not very good at generating mana.
You either need a lot of lands, when you have better untap spells at hand anyway, or a lot of tides, which isn't something i like to be dependant to.

Now the point was to add what is good in solidarity to the faster, more consistent spring tide.

[Fons]

Correct me if I'm wrong but the advantage solidarity has is its instant speed. That would mean your stuck playing one or the other as spring tide uses creatures and sorceries.

I'm not trying to completly put down your idea but I don't see how you can gain the advantage of instant speed if your going to play any sorceries and/or creatures.

as for my 15 island build it seems to be working great i haven't been landscrewed much at all.

[rufus]

Correct me if I'm wrong but the advantage solidarity has is its instant speed. That would mean your stuck playing one or the other as spring tide uses creatures and sorceries.

I'm not trying to completly put down your idea but I don't see how you can gain the advantage of instant speed if your going to play any sorceries and/or creatures.

I don't have any practical experience, but it seems like Brainfreeze would be a reasonably strong counter-card against solidarity simply played against the solidarity pilot mid-combo. The solidarity deck provides the storm count, and needs to resolve draw spells and resets to continue the combo. Because solidarity uses meditate and is relatively reliant on chewing through its own library, even stopping it mid-combo or killing a bunch of the library may cripple it.

Naturally, Spring Tide is vulnerable to the same tactics.
....

Pact of Negation isn't nearly as good as Force of Will in spring tide since the deck has no real chance of paying or avoiding the upkeep cost, except mid-combo. I'd suggest trying Daze, Blazing Shoal, or even Foil first.

P.S. Obviously not a budget approach, but there are alternative ways to go with Spring Tide:
With Candelabra of Tawnos
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ead.php?t=7599

Blue/Black with duals means Bubbling Muck is almost as good as High Tide, and the deck can play discard-based disruption (Duress and Thoughtseize) as part of the early game.

I don't think it's quite strong enough to work, but Blue/Red untap-draw with Izzet Guildmage and splice onto arcane seems like something with potential.

[Fons]

I have been testing Pact and it has been working pretty good, I only use it while im comboing out. Disrupting shoal is too situational and would not work and foil is terrible. Daze might work.

As for Permanent Waves I'm not going to spend that much money on candelabras.

[AnwarA101]

P.S. Obviously not a budget approach, but there are alternative ways to go with Spring Tide:
With Candelabra of Tawnos
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ead.php?t=7599

Permanent Waves (MOM/Candelabra build) removes any problems against creature removal as it doesn't play any. It does get hit by Artifact/Enchantment removal, but that is much less common than creature removal. Anyone willing to buy Candelabras should definitely play this version. I don't think there is a reason to play Spring Tide outside of budget constraints.

[deviant]

Funny.
I tried the candelabra-version when it was a new idea. (In preparing to a tournament.)
But I find it to be a win-more thing at best. Creature removal rarely hurts the deck at all, and the candelabra version at least feels slower.
If I had to force anything those mom's just ended up sitting in my hand.
And Pacts suck 'cause you can only protect your combo with them. FOW's win you the MUs against faster combo and save you from the easy task of racing a 1st turn lackey.

And yes, solidarity is instant speed. Good for them. I played a few games yesterday with a bit more concentrated build of that thing I posted and so was I!
A few spells from my opponent ( they don't realise that sorcery-speed can kill you during your turn too, so they don't worry about the storm like they would against solidarity! ) and you do the thingy-things you usually do and remove target library. It was fun :)

And when I said that maybe we should take what is good in solidarity, I meant more like the cards than the idea. For example twincast. If ***** weren't my easiest matchup it would be a good card. Maybe against landstill?
And then the right number - if it doesn't damage the deck too much - and so on.
And same for every card they play and we don't.

As a side note: If I were to invest in candelabras, I'd slap myself and buy some resets. Which I'm about to do anyway since solidarity is better against control and that's what they play here in Finland.
And Fairy Stompy, the sick perverts.

[Lukas Preuss]

Since this thread still discusses the Sorcery Speed High Tide deck that works with Cloud of Faeries and Snap (!) to generate mana, this could be one of the better decks to take advantage of Slithermuse. Since it only needs to leave play (not be put into a graveyard), you could play it, Snap it, generate mana and draw cards.

[Citrus-God]

Has anybody talked about the inclusion of Bound // Determined yet? It's nuts against Counterbalance if it does resolve and running Green also permits you to run Xantid Swarm as well.

[AnwarA101]

Has anybody talked about the inclusion of Bound // Determined yet? It's nuts against Counterbalance if it does resolve and running Green also permits you to run Xantid Swarm as well.

Bound // Determined is an okay card, but the problem is that Counterbalance decks are likely to have access to a 2 mana spell with Top, Brainstorm and plenty of 2cc spells in a deck like Threshold. If only Determined costed more mana. Its strange but Countebalance makes it so that less efficient spells are better because they actually resolve. What a bizarre situation to be in.

[Arsenal]

Its strange but Countebalance makes it so that less efficient spells are better because they actually resolve.

True, but at the same time, the Timmy in me is almost glad to justify playing 3cc and 4cc spells that I would have NEVER of even considered playing before the rise of CounterTop (effectively making 1cc and 2cc spells a liability in your deck).

[Jaiminho]

I was wondering... does Shrieking Drake deserves any spots in this deck? He costs a single 1 mana and doesn't target, so its ability pretty much can't be countered by removing one creature, if there will still be one on the table.

[Finn]

Wow. That is really interesting. At the very least, it can up your storm count on the cheap.

Hot damn I love new blood. If you can locate one more of these (Arctic Merfolk perhaps, but not likely) that is actually worth including, you could have a funky alternate kill condition as well. But either way, that is a hell of an idea.

Good find, Jaiminho.

[Funky-kun]

Another idea for this deck... has anyone tried running Mystic Remora in the sb as a 3-of? In theory it should improve matchups like deadguy and stax. Not sure, just a suggestion. If anyone has testing experience with it, please share.

And another question - how do you fight Counterbalance/Top with a monoblue version of the deck - with Spell Snare? I like this deck a lot and will invest in in sometime soon, but this is the problem that most worries me.

[slyfer]

wipe away, they dont have cc3, they cannot counter. Problem is gaining access to it because side is small (mandatory slot like disrupt and blue blast AND wish targets), otherways 3x would be ok to deal with it, but there's no space I suppose

[Jaiminho]

Wipe Away is a Wish target. They can counter the wish, though.

[Benie Bederios]

Hi,

I didn't know there was discussion about this deck. Next friday I have a tournament, and I fear my Reset's aren't in then. So I think I'm going to play Spring Tide. I'm probably going to play a straight forward list, but I have some questions:

1. Meditate 4 or 3 MD? and Turnabout?

2. Cantrips? Only eight( 4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder) or up to 12.

3. Disruption? Only FoW MD or Remand too?

4. How does the non-wish SB part thingy look like? I'm going to play in a B disruption and moncolored aggro( Gobbo's, Affinity) meta probably. Maybe 1 or 2 dedicated control. In any case very few Thresh, if any.

Thanks in advance.

BB

[deviant]

Play 3 meditate md, one sb. Seriously. That's your no:1 wish target.
You also play 3 turnabout md. One turnabout or one snap as a wish target. People usually play turnabout but as a last minute tech I once switched it into snap cause you usually get more mana from it. That change saved my ass once and never backfired.
FOWs maindeck four. I've been tinkering with a remanding spring tide, cause that's so good in solidarity, but haven't tested it and wouldn't therefore recommend playing a non-combat proven "tech".

This is the list I played last time, and It's very good versus aggro. Goblin's is a bye due to it's consistent turn 3 win. Something like faerie stompy, or good heavens, even slivers could be troublesome for they have counterspells and a "fast" clock. Control is not easy, but it's winnable.

3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
10 Island

4 Cloud of Faeries
3 Snap
3 Turnabout
4 High Tide

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Ideas Unbound
3 Meditate

3 Cunning Wish
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Force of Will

Wishboard:
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout / Snap / both.
1 brain freeze (if you're good, that's all you need. This, however is my preference only and maindecking some is not a sin.)
1 stroke of genious (alternative kill. mass draw)
1 stifle
1 misdirection (this is a preference call)
1 capsize (it's good to be able to go infinite if you suspect your opponent is holding three stifles or something)
1 wipe away
0 echoing truth or chain of vapor (though echoing your own faeries if fun)
hurkyls recall or something if there's affinity?

Sideboard:
at least 3 defense grid. (you should lose 1st game to control.)
propably 3 disrupt for black discard and such. (spell snare should be considered otherwise.)
Blue elemental blasts: 0 (goblins is an easy win if they don't side like 8 blasts.)

Oh yeah! And your wishboard is not for only wishing, you can sb it too. Like if you combo your whole deck and show your control playing opponent that you NEED to cunning wish for the kill, you might want to sb the kill in :)
Just something I had to learn the difficult way..

Feel free to ask anything. I don't know how people like that decklist but it's the most consistent combo-build I managed to pile together (about four months ago). I think a fast kill is good :) That's why I wouldn't go under 12 cantrips before adjusting the deck a lot.

[Funky-kun]

Rebuild is good against multiples of trinisphere/chalice and stax stuff like smokestack and/or tangle wire. I found it a better idea than to rely on hurkyll, because it can be chaliced for 2 and you're gg.

In my tests I haven't found a good use of stifle, could you please explain why it takes a sb slot? And wouldn't trickbind be better in some cases?

Also, is there any point in having one BEB in the sb, against pyrostatic pillar or somethin? I am wondering, because you can bounce it, but just want to be sure.