I totally agree with this.Originally Posted by Joon
DD just garantees your winning. It kills all your opponets creatures (including Goyf in the mid-late game) while your Crushers and Vores get bigger. Also, it completly shuts down their mana base while you still keep yours via moxen. A GeddonWrath for 2 mana that only affects your opponent printed in one card just seems that amazing.
@Ragnarok.
I think your list is pretty optimal and similar to mine. I only go:
-2 Badlands
-1 Forest
+3 Wasteland.
But that's just a meta call IMO. Wastes work very well for me. Personally, I like to have a way to deal with those annoying Mazes and Tabernacles.
“THROUGH me you pass into the city of woe, through me you pass into eternal pain, Through me among the people lost for aye.
Justice the founder of my fabric moved, to rear me was the task of Power divine, Supremest Wisdom, and primeval Love.
Before me things create were none, save things Eternal, and eternal I endure.
All hope abandon, ye who enter here.” - Inferno
@phantom
You bring up many good points. I'll address them in order.
1. Plague in the board: It's not only in the board for goblins, it's also there for breakfast/belcher (warrens) and slivers (something played but not that much).
2. Grip in the board: You're probably right here, but against stax I'd like to bring in some hate so not only can I side some in but can wish for them too.
3. Therapy: I play both thoughseize and therapy. Therapy is amazing after a thoughseize and will often help in the control matchup. Against TES I'd always therapy for I. Tutor blindly then follow up by saccing a critter to dominate their hand. If you're playing witness/volrath/genisis the saccing part almost never means anyting to you.
4. Wasteland: It's not only there to help cut off green from thresh and other matchups, but being able to cripple someone's mana base because they kept a 1/2 land hand is good times. It not only affects the current game but it definately makes them rethink hands in games 2/3. I'm not sure that 4 is correct but with LftL I'd play at least 3.
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Team Brown & Team Unicorn. Does that make me a Brown Unicorn?
The best options I can think for you is Shattering Spree and Meltdown. With 5 mana you are able to destroy all their arctifacts with Melt. I run one copy of those myself as I can also screw Affinity]]But I still think that your list needs some weapons of mass destruction, Devastating Dreams being the best option.
“THROUGH me you pass into the city of woe, through me you pass into eternal pain, Through me among the people lost for aye.
Justice the founder of my fabric moved, to rear me was the task of Power divine, Supremest Wisdom, and primeval Love.
Before me things create were none, save things Eternal, and eternal I endure.
All hope abandon, ye who enter here.” - Inferno
@Phantom: It's done, it used to be but I replaced it with cabal therapy. I think I'd rather wish for a Deathmark then for a cabal therapy.
@Lemuria: My opinion about wasteland in the list I play is that it slowers the deck. I keep board control with DD, FS and BWish so my creatures can eat the lives of my opponents without much trouble. And wasteland simply doesn't fit in that picture, ofcourse Tabernacle and Maze of Ith are a pain the ass, but we play more creatures then they play maze of ith and our creatures are bigger then their creatures. And in the board I have Needle for the wasteland, port and maze of ith problem. Let's asume we are facing a lands.dec player, he can easily play around wasteland by porting the wastelands before he plays tabernacle. During your next upkeep you can waste tabernacle but you still have to pay the mana for you creatures, he can do this every turn. While you stick on dredging to get your wasteland back in play to waste his lands, his boardcontrol will become better every turn because he can play more lands than you can waste each turn. So I think the gameplan in general would be; dropping creatures for protection and kill him with firestorm and seismic assault.
@Zulander: Adding Engineered Plague is not necassery, firestorm is an one-side wog for goblins and DD does the job pretty good as well. Therapy mainboard is the best thing to play vs combo (pre-board that is). The most important thing we have to understand is; this deck has a weakpoint as have all decks and for this decks it simply is storm-combo, but it aint so bad at all TES and Belcher most of the time go for empty the warrens so in the best case we have 2 turns to find a DD, tendrills is pretty much good-game. And for solidarity we can wreck their hand with therapy and set up a decent clock. Post-board we do have a much better chance of winning because we have acces to chalice. But this is pure my theory.
Why do you say that? I'm assuming you are talking about the fact that it can wipe their creatures. What matchups is this so important that the wishes won't help? Against control (most if not all control decks are important) I wish for tsunami/boil. How is this plan worse than discarding your hand and maybe even killing your creatures? I fail to see how D. Dreams is good against control decks (who play many counters btw).
If you read my response to phantom you'll see why I play plague in the board.
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Team Brown & Team Unicorn. Does that make me a Brown Unicorn?
That's exactly my point. There is no good mass removal in your board besides Plague (wich actually will only affects Goblins hard), unless you run something in your wishboard.
The list I run is quite different from yours. If I discard my hand for DD (wich will be most lands), I can recurr them via LFtL and use them to hurt my opponents bad with Seismic Assault. Control has counters, yes, but this deck has a lot of "must counter cards", you also have good discards and that's why we say that this deck can wreck anything besides combo. And also we all know how bad for control is to rape their mana base off.
I run a single copy of Delirium Skeins (I know it seems "meh" but works great) in my wishboard to put a pressure on control if my therapies couldn't do the job.
“THROUGH me you pass into the city of woe, through me you pass into eternal pain, Through me among the people lost for aye.
Justice the founder of my fabric moved, to rear me was the task of Power divine, Supremest Wisdom, and primeval Love.
Before me things create were none, save things Eternal, and eternal I endure.
All hope abandon, ye who enter here.” - Inferno
I'm actually with Zu. Devastating Dreams mainboard can be a meta call. Wish ->Dreams only sucks against counters and Dreams already sucks against counters. Usually against something like Thresh I wish for removal if needed, discard if not, and Dreams only if I just saw their hand (or it's empty). Also, there are so many matchups and situations where Dreams is a brick in your hand. I would never not run it at all, but I see no problem with upping its cc toin order to not have it sit in my hand at bad times.
I know that, but I don't see anything her that Dreams can't take care of at the same speed. I'm not arguing that Plague is a bad choice (also solid against breakfast from what I hear) I'm just wondering if it's the best choice. What about Leyline for example?
I'm hesitant to cut Grip myself at this point because of the Counterbalances I'm seeing everywhere. Just thinking out loud on that one. As for wish hate on artifacts, I have yet to see anything I like better than Shattering Spree. I love it's focused nature (so our Moxen survive), tendency to be card advantage, and its amazing ability to dodge Counters and Chalices. You can't say all that about Pulverize, Meltdown, Ancient Grudge, or anything else really.
I agree that Therapy is amazing in a hand with another discard spell, but as that happens in like 10 percent of playable hands, I'm not sure how reliable that is. I'm not sure I love your TES example. There are so many ways this can go wrong. They can not have Infernal in their hand. They can have a hand that doesn't need that tutor. They can hide their essential cards from discard (and viewing) with Brainstorm. They can chant in response to you laying a creature (thus preventing flashback). You can draw no creature for flashback, or not be able to play one before they go off (many creatures here are 3cc after all). You can flashback your only creature to rip their hand apart but then let them back into the game since you sacced your only clock. Etc. Etc. And this is talking about the SLOWER version of Storm combo. Therapy is utter crap against Belcher compared to Duress.
I guess I fail to see the harm in maindecking Duress and moving Therapy to the board. Therapy will still be there to rip apart hands you have viewed, it just won't ever let you lose from whiffing.
I like the point about games 2 and 3. Not so much about Thresh. Thresh's creatures give me no problems thanks to recursion, Deathmark, Dreams, 'maw, Mishras, bigger fatties, etc. It's their counters that get to me, and Waste does nothing to help me on that front. Maybe I'll try a 2/2 split with Factory and see how I like that.
@Ragnarok: I somehow missed Deathmark in your board and was suggesting it. Ignore me.
I've never seen him so upset....or ever before.
Leyline only stops Breakfast, whereas Plague stops goblins/xfeast/slivers. I think it's too good not to run in the board.
Yeah, I run some arti/ench hate in my wish board but having additional uncounterable way to hit cb/tops/shackles/hoofprints is amazing.
They can't hide their good cards after you resolve therapy. I see your point however, but therapy is good against goblins/aggro decks and duress not so much.
Which is why waste is so nice. Keep them off green and they can't really cast the creatures they need to play. Something to think about: If you're keeping them off green and they lay a fetch to protect their mana and pass I will usually waste the fetch at their EoT. Sure they can fetch if they want but allowing me to waste the land they fetch on my turn is pretty darn nice, as it makes sure they don't get Trops on their turn.
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Team Brown & Team Unicorn. Does that make me a Brown Unicorn?
Wha??? Ichoroid. Other Loam decks (and 43 land will wreck us). IGGy. Reanimator. Stax (maybe?). Like I said, I'm not sure its the right choice, just that Plague isn't the auto include it was in Gwb because red offers so many other ways to deal with Tribals.
Also, I think I'm making my point poorly about Wasteland so I'll start again:
I cut Waste for the same reason I cut Seismic Assault (which is a ridiculously powerful card). They are both crappy without an active Loam (a single waste is all you will see sans loam). I try to build my Loam deck the way good Survival builds are assembled. Make sure the cards are good without Survival, then add survival. Why? Because if you have Survival going, then you've won. The same can be said about Loam. When I have the Loam engine going, then I have the Loam engine going. I'm drawing two or three cards a turn while laying the most undercosted fatties in the game while either blowing up their board or ripping apart their hand. What the hell do I care if they have access to 0 or 8 lands?
Mishra's Factory is a perfect example of a powerful card that fits our aggro control theme, is great on its own, and improves with Loam active.
Note that I'm not asking how many games Waste has won you. I'm asking how many games Waste won you that you would have otherwise lost. If it's significant, then keep running it. If you found the number to be very small, like me, the I suggest testing Factory.
I've never seen him so upset....or ever before.
@phantom: We don't rely on loam as much as lands.dec does, we us it as a tool and not as a win condition and primary engine. Seismic Assault gives great spot removal and it makes the lands.dec match-up better. Which match-ups do you think will become worse when running Seismic Assault?
Combo. Any deck that runs graveyard hate. Any deck that stops us from playing Loam (usually through CB). Any deck that runs needle. Any deck that Deeds our board with it out. Any deck that runs mana denial, or any game where we happen to not make it to
Look, I'm not passing off lack of Seismic Assaults as gospel here. I know what the card can do from playing it in GR loam for so long. I just have found it to be a win more (or more likely a win-quick) in games I will probably win anyway since I have a Loam going.
I've never seen him so upset....or ever before.
I feel you there. My GR loam decks wins more often then not by a huge Terravore or through the card advantage produced via Loam + cycle lands.Combo. Any deck that runs graveyard hate. Any deck that stops us from playing Loam (usually through CB). Any deck that runs needle. Any deck that Deeds our board with it out. Any deck that runs mana denial, or any game where we happen to not make it to
Look, I'm not passing off lack of Seismic Assaults as gospel here. I know what the card can do from playing it in GR loam for so long. I just have found it to be a win more (or more likely a win-quick) in games I will probably win anyway since I have a Loam going.
In the next few weeks I am going to test 2 different builds vs several important match-ups, those will be; UGb Threshold, Lands.dec, Trainwreck, D-Stompy, TES and maybe solidarity. The first list will be the list below. Cabal Therapy will be Thoughtseize as well, to confirm my opinion about the best card in that slot. The second list will be something like; -3 seismic assault, -1 devastating dreams, +3 Cabal therapy, +1 Genesis. It is more controllish so it improves my combo match-up. Also loam can be used more aggresively in this list, because dredged creatures can still be played and that's not possible in the first list; obviously. I can't find any slots to fit in shriekmaw I know it's great spot-removal but is it necassery? Just a thought: "Armageddon in the board or Ravages of War? We do play Mox Diamond". And I think Leyline of the Void sideboard would be pretty good after all but I have to find some room for it first. And shattering spree ain't that bad either.
4 Countryside Crusher
4 Terravore
4 Goyf
4 Cabal Therapy/Thoughtseize
3 Seismic Assault
3 Life from the Loam
3 Devastating Dreams
3 Firestorm
3 Burning Wish
4 Mox Diamond
1 Forest
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained mire
3 Forgotten Cave
3 Tranquil Thicket
4 Taiga
4 Badlands
2 Bayou
Sideboard:
1 Life from the Loam
1 Devastating Dreams
1 Haunting Echoes
3 Pithing Needle
1 Nostalgic Dreams
1 Pulverize
1 Deathmark
1 Hull Breach
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Reverent Silence
Last edited by Ragnarok; 01-08-2008 at 05:30 PM.
Yesterday I was playing against Faerie Stompy deck and I found this to be an awful match up. Chalice can screw you pretty bad and post board, Back to Basics completly destroys you.
First game he went Chalice@1 on first turn and Chalice@2 on the second turn, GG, there's not much we can do. Game 2 I won without problems, and game 3 B2B costs me the game. We also played a game 4 for fun and guess what? I could do nothing to beat B2B. Until I wish to Reverent Silence or Hull Breach, he already had faties beating me down, so what I ask is: How do we deal with this bitch B2B?
EDIT: I think I'll reduce or maybe completly cut the Wastes in order to run some basics.
Last edited by Lemuria; 01-08-2008 at 11:20 AM.
“THROUGH me you pass into the city of woe, through me you pass into eternal pain, Through me among the people lost for aye.
Justice the founder of my fabric moved, to rear me was the task of Power divine, Supremest Wisdom, and primeval Love.
Before me things create were none, save things Eternal, and eternal I endure.
All hope abandon, ye who enter here.” - Inferno
What do you think of a decklist like this? If want to keep Dark Confidant. If I find a random card to cut I can make room for 4 of both Crusher and Vore.
CREATURES (19)
4 Wild Mongrel
4 Tarmogoyf
3-4 Terravore
3-4 C.Crusher
4 Dark Confidant
SORCERIES (11)
4 Thoughtseize
4 Burning Wish
3 Life from the Loam
ARTIFACTS (4)
4 Mox Diamond
LAND (26)
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Taiga
3 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Barren Moor/Forgotten Cave
4 Tranquil Thicket
4 Wasteland
1 Volrath’s Stronghold
Sideboard Krosan Grip.
#mtgfinance follow on twitter: @mtgStaples
Team Brown & Team Unicorn. Does that make me a Brown Unicorn?
Various remarks:
- mongrel becomes a subpar creature in my testings. So much inferior to the 12 other creatures... It may be good against gob to have a second 2CC strong body, but actually... is really gob a problem?
- Cabal therapy is bad because all your creatures are too strong to be sacrificed.
- I don't like playing thoughtseize in the MD because my best answer to combo remains chalice of the void. I play 4 of them MD instead of the traditional discard first turn slot.
- Gamble (with the undiscussed wish) is the clearly best tutor for the deck. It enables a lot of nice stuff, like having virtually 8 chalice@0 for the first turn against combo or playing 1 tabernacle in SB.
- Assault is either an instant way to deal with creatures or an alternative kill. That's why I play only 1 assault. I play also only 1 MD devastating dreams because it is a very risky card, even if it is powerful. You rarely need more than 1 in a game.
My list is eventually halfway aggro-control. I think I would need 1 or 2 more lands but I don't find the place:
// Lands/mana
2 [OD] Forest (3)
4 [ON] Forgotten Cave
3 [U] Taiga
1 [MM] Mountain (3)
3 [ON] Tranquil Thicket
2 [TE] Wasteland
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
2 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
1 [B] Badlands
1 [A] Bayou
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
// Creatures
4 [OD] Terravore
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [MOR] Countryside Crusher
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
// Spells
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [US] Gamble
1 [TO] Devastating Dreams
1 [EX] Seismic Assault
1 [P3] Rolling Earthquake
2 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 [TO] Devastating Dreams
SB: 1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
SB: 1 [P3] Rolling Earthquake
SB: 2 [7E] Pyroclasm
SB: 1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
SB: 2 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 2 [NE] Reverent Silence
SB: 4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
About he SB:
- Ancient Grudge is supposed to be found with gamble
- Shattering Spree, pyroclasm and reverent silence have 1 that is sided in as a gamble target and the other remains in SB as a wish target
- thoughtseize is either sided in instead of chalice when nothing else is relevant or sided in against combo instead of assault, devatating dreams, 1 life from the loam and 1 terravore.
- the tabernacle is entered against any deck with a lot of creatures or against EtW combo decks as a gamble target.
- the rest is only wish target.
How about a couple of Witnesses MD or a Regrowth as a Wishtarget there to make Gamble a bit safer?
I always ran Dev Dreams and I think it only becomes more viable with Countryside Crusher coming in MOR. True that sucking against counters. Even when I run therapy main I keep one sb but normally duress is the maindeck choice over therapy because the creatures in hand often don't matter unless there pro red or a 187 you will keep them off the table. I too run a regrowth as a wish target with dredging loam it becomes a valuable tutor. My friend Ray prefers recoup because of flashback but it doesn't get creatures.I'm actually with Zu. Devastating Dreams mainboard can be a meta call. Wish ->Dreams only sucks against counters and Dreams already sucks against counters. Usually against something like Thresh I wish for removal if needed, discard if not, and Dreams only if I just saw their hand (or it's empty). Also, there are so many matchups and situations where Dreams is a brick in your hand. I would never not run it at all, but I see no problem with upping its cc to
I know that, but I don't see anything her that Dreams can't take care of at the same speed. I'm not arguing that Plague is a bad choice (also solid against breakfast from what I hear) I'm just wondering if it's the best choice. What about Leyline for example?
I agree that Therapy is amazing in a hand with another discard spell, but as that happens in like 10 percent of playable hands, I'm not sure how reliable that is. I'm not sure I love your TES example. There are so many ways this can go wrong. They can not have Infernal in their hand. They can have a hand that doesn't need that tutor. They can hide their essential cards from discard (and viewing) with Brainstorm. They can chant in response to you laying a creature (thus preventing flashback). You can draw no creature for flashback, or not be able to play one before they go off (many creatures here are 3cc after all). You can flashback your only creature to rip their hand apart but then let them back into the game since you sacced your only clock. Etc. Etc. And this is talking about the SLOWER version of Storm combo. Therapy is utter crap against Belcher compared to Duress.
I guess I fail to see the harm in maindecking Duress and moving Therapy to the board. Therapy will still be there to rip apart hands you have viewed, it just won't ever let you lose from whiffing.
@Ragnarok: I somehow missed Deathmark in your board and was suggesting it. Ignore me.
Witness/stronghold combo is definitely not aggro, but I said that I was aggro-control I may include 1. Regrowth, dreams or all suns dawn in possible too in SB. I thought about it. Actuallym theoretically, none should be necessary because:
- either I use gamble in early game in order to find an answer to combo and I have 6 cards in hand when I get discarded at random,
- either I use gamble to find Life from the Loam (which is one of the bests turn 1)
- either I search for a specific land (wasteland, wolrajh or cycle land) because I already have life from the loam in hand.
- either I search for a control card in middle game but it's usually a bad play that is chosen as the last option to survive. Witness wood be too slow in that case.
- or I search for a kill (assault or dreams) and I have time to sculpt my hand at this time in order to have 10 or more cards in hand.
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