Are you keeping in mind that I am talking about Tolaria West in my UWb Cunning Wish Landstill?Originally Posted by galeng
Also I severely disagree that Academy Ruins shouldn't be played in 4c Landstill. I'd always play it over a Wasteland for the reasons stated in my post above.
It just sweeps the board next turn? I'm not one of the guys who always have a Counterspell online... also, I'd always take the risk of not being able to counter something when I can just clear the board next turn.
Including cards that are only good in the lategame (where, if reached, this deck will win) is a perfect example of winmore.
To adress your point: no, Landstill is no aggro deck but your opponent will either be:
- Fast Aggro
- Aggro Control
- Combo
- Control
In the first 3 matchups, FoF will be too slow. Sure its gold against control but thats not a large proportion of the metagame.
Against aggro, you play FoF in the endstep of turn 4 where you're likely to be low on life. It might get you a sweeper. Compare this to Tolaria West which could transmute for Explosives on turn3 and clear the board on turn4 so that basically you just saved yourself a full attack.
Against aggro-control, you can't play FoF before the endstep of turn5 (Daze) which is pretty slow. Tolaria West is gamebreaking here as it can fetch Academy Ruins for a softlock.
Against Combo, both are irrelevant but Tolaria West can be a solution to Empty the Warrens if your opponent had a really slow start. FoF only pithes into force here.
Against control, I agree that FoF will be superior most of the time but in the direct mirror, Tolaria West fetches Academy Ruins which will win the battle over Crucible of Worlds and therewith the game.
If your opponent separates perfectly, you'll always have to take the 2 card pile so that your card advantage is only '+1'. The other card is likely to be useless (land).
If you think like this, then you are playing Brainstorm incorectly... it digs for 3 cards deep and then puts 2 useless ones back creating virtual card advantage (or card quality if you want) while still nabing you a solution pretty consistently which then will create card advantage.
What I did was to cut another land that jeopardizes the mana base: Wasteland.
The difference is that Tolaria West cip tapped but produces blue mana.
Inability to perceive sarcasm ftl.
Your meta game is strange. Thresh is big near me and FoF makes them cry. It's too much CA for them to handle.
Is aggro that big in your meta? And aggro as in goblins? FoF should go out for plague or something of the sort, and I don't even run plague (blasts are more versitile imo).
No offense, but the good player will pick the 3 card pile, because its better... if the 3 card pile sucks, then either the 2 card pile is 2 bombs or you got a crappy FoF (ex: land, land, land, land, brainstorm, :S)
That's card quality, not card advantage. They are two different things.
I'd suggest taking out the west for another EE since it's the only worthy tutor target you mention unless you're already running 24 land or less (I run 26 but 24 is the minimum).
As mentioned right above that line, I think that FoF is only good in the late game and therefore winmore.
I don't have a meta as people switch decks for each event but that doesn't belong here.
***** is a factor around here too but I'd rather have an Engineered Explosives (or the friggin' lock with Academy Ruins) against them then having to wait until turn5 to get CA.
I like Engineered Plague more because it can also come in against Cepahlid Breakfast and Ichorid.
My point was that Brainstorm digs into something that creates Card Advantage nearly all the time (I did mention the word card quality too).
I did post the build I'm playing and yes it has 24 lands.
Not to back up Galeng or anything, but I sort of disagree with this to the extent that without significant draw, Landstill tends to lose its ability to win a long game against a lot of aggro or aggro-control decks that can gain real or virtual card advantage of their own through cards like Ringleader, Confidant, Counterbalance, or whatever the case may be.
From Looking at all of your posts I find alot of things wrong with landstill builds as a whole. First let's begin with bad ideas.
Tarmogoyf:
It simply doesn't work. Yes it will win you random games where you draw them and your opponent doesn't, or you have multiples ect. ect.
The other way it works is against discard obv. So if you draw multiple t goyfs against discard it can usually win you games yes. Outside of these possibilities it doesn't TRULY work for the deck. I think it's kind of obvious.
Tombstalker:
The only way I see this working is if #1 your using 3c uwb or ugb still and if you are your probobly using it so that haunting echoes doesn't wreck you randomly. Otherwise it goes completely against your own synergy. Realisticly I see only thresh truly being able to play it.
Nantuko monastary:
Alot of people swear by this card, and I do admit you do win games more often then said tarmo win. But generally your just leaning even heavier on your graveyard to win you the game. Which I still don't like. I sac'd this dude early on in my playtesting in favor of Academy ruins for even more consistent removal.
Now let's get to the good stuff:
FACT OR FICTION:
Whoever says that FOF is not good in LS is crazy. I wholeheartedly believe it brings up the consistency of your deck to another level. I do not believe it has room in some of the more intensive lists out there like mine which require a lowered curve and some really distinct answers.
Like I stated before about this card. I think any version of 3c still can run multiple FOF or even a list like Tacosnape's which is very good.
Taco I've never mentioned this but the only thing I don't like about your list is that theres a real possibility of milling yourself to death. Life from the loam as a 2 of and FOF as a 3 of combined with Standstill could really really go overboard in theory. But I could be completely wrong and on the back of an experiance pilot like yourself i'm sure you rarely have these problems. But I tend to take the long game and often even with my list that I hacked from Wasteland and tuned a bit I often find myself getting into the late teens before I actually win the game. I forgot if you have ruins in your list or not, but I do have your list on mws so ill check that in a minute.
BTW Taco do you live in the states? I'm just curious to location I live in Michigan so I wondered if you ever go to any events around here.
As for garruck he's godlike as well.
As long as your sweepers are Deeds and Explosives, I completely disagree with this evaluation.
Tombstalker in Landstill works wonders, because it is hard to answer - unlike Goyf, which dies to all the CC-based hate in the format (Deed, EE, Counterbalance, Chalice, Smother, Threads, Spell Snare - many of which you run yourself. And I didn't mention Shriekmaw and Ghastly Demise). It is also evasive, which lets you just chump block with your Factories for a few turns while you kill them in 3-4 swings.
Combined with 4 Stifles and Wastelands, it provides a completely credible gameplan involving mana disruption and an early Tombstalker protected by countermagic (unlike Eternal Dragon, Tombstalker doesn't tap you out). If your opponent resolves some threats, no problem! You can wipe away the board and Tombstalker will still be there to resume the beats.
Tombstalker is very, very good.
YOU'RE GIVING ME A TIME MACHINE IN ORDER TO TREAT MY SLEEP DISORDER.
Does Pox play countermagic and board sweepers?
I am confident Goyf doesn't belong in the deck because 1) I've tested it and 2) it offers you the opportunity to go aggro-control... at the price of being a wasted card if the plan doesn't pan out.
But if the plan doesn't pan out with Tombstalker, and you return to play traditional control, oh look! Here's your control-style finisher, already in play! There was no price.
YOU'RE GIVING ME A TIME MACHINE IN ORDER TO TREAT MY SLEEP DISORDER.
Thank you. I was waiting for someone to say that.
And that too. I guess people just want to play Goyf in every damn deck that can produce green mana. Sure, it's the freaking best creature ever printed, but does it fit in a control shell? You WILL win games just because of dropping Goyf and protecting him, but like I said, if you can get away with a win while playing Goyf in Landstill, then you can get away without a win even without Goyf.
The Source: Your Source for "The Source: Your Source for..." cliche.
First of all, I wholeheartedly agree on most of the parts of your post I snipped about Goyf, T-Stalk, and Fact or Fiction. Stalker's better than Goyf, but I don't feel that either one belong.
As for milling myself, it's happened. I've had every deck I own get milled to death and I've milled people to death with Goblins of all things. But Landstill only mills itself to death in a control mirror and when I've lost the game anyway. Experience helps, and I can usually tell after a certain point how not to deck myself and what my path to victory is. More than once, especially against more sorcery-speed black control decks, I've cracked a series of my own Standstills in succession to kill an opponent at the last second (I did this once in a tournament after a 47 minute first game and won the match 1-0.)
Life from the Loam isn't as bad as it seems for Milling, as I rarely need to dredge it more than once in a game. Plus, I only run one Loam, not two. And while I'd like to go up to 4 Fact or Fictions, 3's about all I can feasibly manage and still have a strong early game; Fact or Fiction's at its very best when you don't desperately need a single exact card to stay alive.
I do live in the states, but down in Alabama, so it'd have to be a huge event and I'd have to be in better financial shape before I could manage a road trip to a large event. I mostly just settle for what's around here or on occasion, Atlanta.
Hey taco, have you ever had the problem of not needing the loam? I have tested both since you have made your case with loam, like a year ago. And after testing, I actually took out both loam and crucible, and was just more careful with my lands. those 2 slots I was playing with actually became garruk.
Fact or fiction should be at the number 3 just for the fact that having one in opening hand is usually bad and have 2 is just to much and leaves you without drawing the things you need. 3 has always been a good number for me, 4 too much and 2 seems to not show up enough.
garruk>>>>goyf and tombstalker
goyf>>>>tombstalker.
Since this whole loam crucible argument is kind of rearing it's ugly head I would like to express my thoughts to both blac and taco.
I know taco's opinion very well and I agree for the most part except for one distinct difference i've noticed in playtesting.
As far as crucible is concerned I like the consistency as soon as you drop it. More then likely going for the land out of graveyard as soon as it resolves. This is what I do 90% of the time. I wait until i've dropped all my lands and then I resort to the crucible engine inless I need a mishra's factory- crucible engine for a little bit. I find that crucible has incredible synergy with academy ruins and thats actually why I prefer the 2 crucible 2 EE 1 ruins combination. It may seem slow but giving yourself:
crucible + Ruins = long game mana production and inevitable mishra's factory beat down eventually
EE+ Ruins = long game stripping of cc 1-4 creatures. Although it does prohibit you from drawing more cards it can generally get you into the long game and once you get there it's all over for 90% of the decks in the field.
#2 on EE+ruins = you can also EE for 0 sac it for 2 and ruins it back on to your library for literally inevitability if your facing a 4-20 against a milling strategy or just lack of answers in the ultra late game.
I find that randomly wastelocking someone with crucible is also better then spending resource mana for loam, but thats not the main point of my argument. I do understand that loam digs up random mishra's factoryies and that it tends to be better when you have to have the card advantage against black discard decks aka hymn of torouch. POS. But realisticly decks can easily fight against that kind of b.s. with the right combination of cards. Heck Taco Garruck is a house against the discard decks if you can randomly put it back on top of your library with a brainstorm and/ or protect it until t4 when you drop it and make a token and procede to kick the crap out of an opponent more worried about crippling your hand then worrying about board position.
Like I said it's just an opinion. I mean no offense taco for dragging the dead horse on and on and on. I just hadn't seen that point made valid yet and I didn't know if you had thought about it.
Here is an article from StarCityGames.com, where a person decided to make a landstill deck of his own, although he has not liked the idea of garruk, he loved the idea of... oh my gosh, I dont think I'm aloud to say this on here, I might get crucified, TARMOGOYF. aww man tarmogoyf is a good choice.
epic landstill
That man is a Genius.
I Lol'd!
I don't know about Genious. I really don't like the idea of counter top in a control deck. You can raz it up however much you want but realisticly thresh has the best counter top plan. With more creature threats and a plan that is pro active I would think the many flavors of thresh beat a semi pro active land still any day. The other half of it is t-goyf in the deck. Yes this deck is a little proactive with goyf and counter-top. But you still have the same problems you had with decks like goblins/ thresh type decks. Your alreadt losing the board position inless you get some lucky flips or they get mana screwed or they have less removal then you do. Which if often not the case.
The bottom line to me is this is a bad version of still because you simply don't have the options against gobos and other high impact decks.
Your game against aggro control is kind of just meh as they beat you down with dazes and mongoose.
You do improve your combo match up if you land counter top but most combo is already favorable.
Bottom line u/w/g still is just not getting me there. I'd personally rather run ubg and have a chance with more disruption. Garruck is pure and simply better then top in power level and that counter top has a 1-3 - 1-6 chance of hitting said spell. and if their control counter top is not even close to as effective. EE is also amazing vs stupid synergys like that. or and plus academy ruins = yummy.
You missed the point.
A) I wrote the article.
B) It isn't Landstill. Note the savage lack of Manlands. The fact that it runs 4 of the same cards (the Standstills) doesn't mean its the same deck. In fact, it plays quite differently from Landstill.
C) Standstill itself is in the process of being cut from the deck.
Please, if you have interest in the deck, continue it in the thread in the CANGD contest forum, located here.
I played with a countertop sideboard for a while, and I liked having it but it seemed like to many slots for me to take out. I could practically bring it in every match but I still had to find 8 slots to do that, and most of the time I was taking out my removal or counter which countering the point of bringing in countertop. because of this, I took out the countertop side and went more for the mage/extirpate/plague board. But I also run tarmogoyf, soo maybe I should start my own thread and call it goyfstill.
I like the article, hope to read more of them. (even thou you don't like garruk)
I didn't say he's bad. I said he's significantly better when you run Counterspell. I don't so he isn't as good for me.
Nightmare
To me this deck screems for
Descendant of Kiyomaro
and most deffinately a 1 of eternal dragon.
This would enable you to drop a fetch and add 1 more possible win condition. Also smoothing out your landbase even further.
auto including a savannah and dropping a sea for a scrubland.
but mostly just Descendant of Kiyomaro. This guy is soo good against the quick aggro in this format and he's rediculously good to me.
Note that the rules are more strictly enforced for these threads. Your spelling and grammar leave much to be desired.
-TOOL
Last edited by T is for TOOL; 01-08-2008 at 10:51 PM. Reason: Spelling and grammar.
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