I don't mean to de-rail any actual conversation, but this is exactly why I sent in a foil RTW for the winner. That shit is hot.Originally Posted by APriestOfGix
Anyway, allow me to stress, as several people have, that this is a control deck built to beat control decks. If that's not what you're willing to play, then don't play this. Jace is pretty close to nuts in every match, with the possible exception of Goblins/Agro/Burn (This includes Goyf Sligh). You are able, in most cases, to bury your opponent with card advantage by way of CB/Top or Wrath, and you have to remember that you're drawing too. Also, he's a solid card at 3cc, which roxxorz. He gets boarded out against not-Control/Agro Control/Prison decks, 'scept maybe TES (just for blue card count. But don't quote me on that).
Having actually tested this deck, and played against it, on multiple occasions, allow me to relieve the worries of you naysayers with this statement:
TEC (The EPIC Control), flaws and all, is probably one of the top five submitted decks thus far. If I may speak on behalf of the judges, let me issue this ultimadum:
(This message interrupted by: The Committee for over use of colins)
We like your Rock-y decks. We really do. Fish decks are cool, too. Remember when you would bring an art project back from like 3rd grade, back when your parents were still cool and bought you game boy games/ all 4 N64 controllers/ didn't get divorced? And then congratulated you on your work, and put it on the fridge so you'd see it everyday at breakfast, and so they could show it off to house guests?
These decks so far have largely been like these art projects.
Now, before you start throwing full wine bottles at your computer screen, let me append that statement:
(looks like I love colins almost as much as the {list} function)
We appreciate these decks, just like your parents appreciated your art projects. They show your individuality, and ingenuity. Aww... look! You even signed your name in the corner with dried macaroni! There is only one problem; we're looking for a new Mona Lisa, or at least the metaphorical equivalant of those sketches of that naked dude with his arms out at weird angles.
That is all.
The E.P.I.C. Syndicate: I mean, if they play a lullaby for babies they should at least play the Monster Mash when somebody dies.
Just to bring up a point I think everyone else may have missed the Jace comment is just wrong and should probably be removed from the opening post. You may have a favorable matchup vs. Thresh but Jace's "remove 20 cards" ability certainly has nothing to do with it unless used 2x. I mean if Thresh is going to win it's before they get to 40 cards left in deck, at that point if you use Jace's "ultimate" ability it's equal chance you'll make their deck better or worse. At any rate what do you side out for Extirpates vs. Thresh?
big links in sigs are obnoxious -PR
Don't disrespect my dojo dude...
Sweep the leg!
@ Nightmare: How do you use Jace? Is it mostly for the control MU? If so, why? I think that if you explained to everyone how you play him, then most people would understand what role he plays and quit bashig it.
Why would you need Intuition to play a full set of AK?? I understand that Intuition makes AK faster, but in a control deck (remember kids, this one aims for the long game) AK as a 4-of with no help is fine, just fine.
On the topic of draw, Ancestral Vision is sick. Yes, there is a delay, but this allows you to avoid any akward situations where you cast a large draw spell (FoF anyone?) and you're either forced to spend a Force of Will on it to resolve the draw spell and hope that you draw into more promission or let it get countered and be satisfied with going 1 for 1 (2 if they Force'd it). With AV, you avoid those situations because you have all your mana open to protect it. It may not be the best against agro/ Goblins when you're rocked back on your heels and you're screaming "I need answers NAO!!!", but Nightmare, you've stated that Goblins is not your concern with this deck.
Considering that TEC(H?) is a control deck that aims to out-control other dedicated control decks, you might want to run more permision in the deck (right now you pretty much run just 4 Force of Wills since Landstill, MUC and othe dedicated control have curves centered very high and Counterbalance stops a sub-optimal portion of those decks). I would think that 3-4 Counterspells MD.
Maybe something like this? (keep in mind that I haven't played the deck yet):
-1 CB
-4 Standstill
-2 Jace Belaren
+3 Counterspell
+4 Accumulated Knowledge/ Ancestral Visions*
*(if you run these, your 0cc card count for CB would be 28...)
Is it just me, or is CB looking less and less atractive in the abstract as the discussion progresses? It's not really effective against dedicated control because they have a higher-centered curve, it was effective with Standstill, but now that card is looking for a replacement, and the deck itself has a curve too far spread-out for CB to really be effective. I think that there are better cards for the control mirror that warrant inclusion. It's a bad habit of mine to put more black in every deck, but have you considered putting those SB'd Extiprates in the Main? They BREAK control (which is your main concern, yes?). Playing a playset MD is pretty much an auto-win against Control decks, but the key here is knowing how to play them. You can't just say "hey, I don't like that" and Extirpate it. You should aim to cripple a vital portion of thier deck so that it can't function properly, like the permision, draw, or thier threats instead of trying to weaken the deck as a whole. Well, I'm done now.
EDIT: Or not @ lonleybaritone: not to be an ass, but I really don't think that this could call this a Mona Lisa. I don't say this because it isn't perfect, I say this because it's simply Uwg(b) control. It does the same things that scrubby Uwb control has done with essentially the same cards, just in different colots and it, by chance happened to be put together by Nightmare, which means that is well made. On that note:
@ Nightmare: Again, my tendancy to put black where it may not belong: why did you chose to go with the colors that you did? Surely there are better control options in a Uwb maindeck than in Uwg, so I would naturally assume that there is a reason that you chose to go the way you did. Was it Tarmogoyf? If so, that makes me sad, but I would understand.
Team Battletoadz: Fuck the Meta-police?
If it's all in our heads, it's best that we don't loose them.
Wow, just read this and is that really needed. I don't know if you are a fanboy/friend of Nightmare and trying to hype his deck up, but having submitted a "Rockish" deck myself I find this highly insulting. While this is a fine deck for the right meta, and I agree with it being one of the top 5 decks in the contest so far, I could just as easily say it's a mediocre UW control deck with Tarmogoyfs stuck in if I wanted to be a dick, so oversimplifying things to an insulting level is going to get us nowhere and hopefully you don't speak for the judges on that.
Anyways sorry to go there in your thread Nightmare, but I feel that comment was addressed at me. I'm going to go ahead and have to agree with the maybe testing Extirpate in the MD, I mean it just is bad times for control all around, but then again it may be overkill. I'm not really familiar with your meta but does the lack of MD GY control ever hurt you seeing as many control decks have ways of abusing the GY now adays (not to mention Wasteland Recursion). Also does the fact that Tarmogoyf is your main threat ever hurt you post board if he gets Extirpated leaving you with only Hoofprints and to a lesser extent Jace and Shackles. That might be my #1 problem with this deck in a control heavy meta (granted I haven't tested it).
big links in sigs are obnoxious -PR
Don't disrespect my dojo dude...
Sweep the leg!
Let's clear the air about a few things.
First - Jace doesn't suck. I'm positive you guys are off about this, because he's easily one of the strongest cards in the deck. Certainly, sometimes he's a three mana cantrip against decks like Survival or Goblins, but at the worst he's a three mana cantripping Fog. It happens. Vs. decks like Thresh or storm combo or control, you have the ability to win without using the red zone, where often they have the advantage on defense.
Part of the reason I think you guys may be having trouble is that you're being too aggressive with Goyf. For everyone who said he's the "main" win condition, he's not. He's more like your first line of defense (Remember that good offense is a great defense). That being said, and more in direct response to the quote, let's assume that you play out a Jace on turn 4, to both keep top mana available and play around Daze. If you drew first, meaning your opponent starts with more cards in library than you, then by the time he even hits the table, they've drawn 10 cards, not counting cantrips or fetchlands. It takes 5 turns to activate Jace including the turn you play him, which is 4 more draws plus the 5 per their turn they'll be seeing. That's 20 cards they've now seen, to your however many you've seen. Again, this doesn't factor in their cantrips or fetches. You activate Jace and remove half of their Library. Now, this is where logic gets tricky. You have basically three possibilities for the outcome of this mill. First, you mill nothing relevant at all, and they go about their business with no concern for Jace at all, which can happen I admit. Second, you hit the nuts, and leave them with minimal threats left in the deck, and clean up with StP and Wrath. This is generally a good thing. Third is of course, a combination of the two, and the most likely scenario. Any of these options leaves them with a decreased threat base or counter base, and allows you to ease the pressure and go about your game plan. It also sets the clock.
If they don't kill you in the next five turns, they flat out lose the game. This is a good position for a control deck to be in. It forces them to over-extend into the other card people seem to hate, Wrath of God. Now, I understand that this is the ideal situation, and that it doesn't always work that way. So don't ramp him up. Sit on him, and go -1, -1, +2 all day long. The decision to ramp or draw is one of the more subtle ones that people seem to screw up all the time (myself included).
As for what I side out for Extirpate, it varies. Versus any given deck, I take out the weakest win conditions, and some number of other stuff. I don't usually have a set strategy for boarding, but I have general concepts on what is good or less good vs. different decks.
Visions is pretty damned slow. I was considering it for the deck at one point, but it's not really worth it. Thirst has been good so far, I'm thinking that might be the go-to card.
DING DING DING!!! Seriously, guys. I know how much of a pile this looks like on paper. My own teammates bashed it in much the same way you all are before they a) saw it in action, and b) played with it themselves. Test it out a little before you go changing the deck all around.(keep in mind that I haven't played the deck yet):
That's because you've taken out the cards that are good with it, and replaced them with cards that suck with it. You're concentrating too much on individual cards, and not the overall deck. One of the biggest reasons Thirst or Meditate are so attractive to the deck, is that they cost three mana. The more smooth you can make the deck curve, the more effective the Counterbalances will be. After adding Thirst, I found myself having no trouble with 3cc spells at all, anymore, as I'm running 8 3cc cards to find with CounterTop.Is it just me, or is CB looking less and less atractive in the abstract as the discussion progresses?
I don't think he's saying this is the Mona Lisa, he's just saying that Doran is this year's Life From the Loam. If you made a BWG rock deck or a fish deck, then you're unlikely to win, because how do the judges differentiate between the eight that have been submitted? That doesn't mean they aren't good, it just means there's a lot of them.EDIT: Or not @ lonleybaritone: not to be an ass, but I really don't think that this could call this a Mona Lisa. I don't say this because it isn't perfect, I say this because it's simply Uwg(b) control. It does the same things that scrubby Uwb control has done with essentially the same cards, just in different colots and it, by chance happened to be put together by Nightmare, which means that is well made. On that note:
Read the article, please.@ Nightmare: Again, my tendancy to put black where it may not belong: why did you chose to go with the colors that you did? Surely there are better control options in a Uwb maindeck than in Uwg, so I would naturally assume that there is a reason that you chose to go the way you did. Was it Tarmogoyf? If so, that makes me sad, but I would understand.
The lack of grave hate is an issue vs. decks like Ichorid, sure. You'd think we'd see more of it around here with all the Landstill, too, but we don't. Anyway, if that's your concern, Yixlid Jailer is a massive beating on them from the board. I'd run three. Part of the reason I'm running black at all in this deck is the availability of the "gap fillers" it provides. Between Plague and yard hate, I think black is much better in the board than it is in the MD.
You have a fair game one against Breakfast even without it extirpate in the maindeck (unless they're running my build). Extirpate post-board is generally fine, and you bring Plague in as well (naming Illusion or Wizard).
Naming wizard while bringing in jailer is a bad thing. Stick to illusion or whatever Cephalid Illusionist's types are.
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Team Brown & Team Unicorn. Does that make me a Brown Unicorn?
I don't currently run Jailer. And Illusionist is a Cephalid Wizard.
Ok, seriously, I have tested this deck. I'm not just drawing conjecture when I say this, but Jace has been utterly awful for me so far. It sucks against Goblins, because he sucks up one random attacking creature and then dies, he sucks against Thresh because he's slow as hell and generally completely irrelevant, and he sucks against combo because he's slow as hell. Yes, Jace is strong against other control where he can act like a Phyrexian Arena without the life penalty, and if your metagame is loaded with Landstill then I can somewhat understand why you'd want to keep Jace in the deck.
However, in general, Jace has been completely sub-par for me so far.
You hit the nail on the head. The NY metagame consists of Survival, Thresh, and tons of landstill with a few players opting to play combo.
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Team Brown & Team Unicorn. Does that make me a Brown Unicorn?
If you're absolutely adamant about cutting Jace, I strongly suggest you consider another three mana win condition, rather than an additional draw spell. The fact that Jace is both at the same time has a lot to do with why I like him so much, but as I said, if you're convinced you need to cut him, find something else that wins the game. Maybe Cunning Wish? I don't like the idea of dilluting the board, but it's up to you.
Does Jace's 3rd ability actually win you games? It seems like thatd be a slower and worse win condition than even Hoofprints, especially when you are often drawing your opponent into cards with the +2 ability.
Yes.
No.It seems like thatd be a slower and worse win condition than even Hoofprints, especially when you are often drawing your opponent into cards with the +2 ability.
That comment about it being beat to build control sounds really stupid. Weren't the guidelines for this contest that the deck had to do well against
a) Goblins
b) Thresh
c) Landstill
d) two decks from Established (which MIGHT be control decks) ? Because if they were, "it is designed to beat control" is not an argument at all. Otherwise, I'll gladly send in my Reanimator.dec which "is designed to absolutely beat Aggro (but loses to anything packing counterspells)". That's not supposed to say anything negative about the strength of your deck, Nightmare, but about the argument used to support it.
georgjorgeGeistreich sind schon die anderen.
Do not use the "reduce their threat density" argument to defend Jace; it makes no more sense than criticizing Dredge because it "loses you good cards". Milling cards from an opponent's library is, in a vacuum, a zero-EV play, because you're just as likely to take away their good cards as their bad ones. What is important is how many threats they draw, now how many they have in their library.
There are two exceptions. The first is when they use tutoring: in this case, milling all copies of a tutor target also makes dead or less effective the tutor cards themselves, so milling is a +EV play. If they're relying on draw spells, though, you're just as likely to help them as to hurt them; also, if their tutoring involves graveyard recursion (such as with Intuition decks) you're helping them - see below.
The second is when their deck has any graveyard-related bonus; in this case, milling gives them an advantage until you actually deck them. Dredge cards, the Breakfast combo, Cabal Therapy, Eternal Dragon, lands for Crucible of Worlds, everything in Survival. The amount of graveyard hate played in the format should tell you how often this matters.
(Another chance for backfiring is when they have a Brainstorm or a Sensei's Divining Top, where Jace works as a top-of-library-cleaner. But that's very minor.)
YOU'RE GIVING ME A TIME MACHINE IN ORDER TO TREAT MY SLEEP DISORDER.
There is a sizeable difference between losing three cards from your library, and losing 20. They aren't the same at all.
I played 5 games last night in a brief testing session with Fakespam with the Loam deck (basically Eternal Garden) that he is working on. It uses both Intuition and Crucible/LftL in it. Jace was the best card in my deck, and every game I won (three of the five - not bad for what is probably a pretty bad matchup for most control decks) was due to me decking him with Jace, in conjunction with CounterTop negating his recursion.There are two exceptions. The first is when they use tutoring: in this case, milling all copies of a tutor target also makes dead or less effective the tutor cards themselves, so milling is a +EV play. If they're relying on draw spells, though, you're just as likely to help them as to hurt them; also, if their tutoring involves graveyard recursion (such as with Intuition decks) you're helping them - see below.
Two of those decks are obvious ones where you either draw three total cards from him and let him die, or you side him out. It seems strange that you can't see the validity of drawing three cards off from him as an acceptable play.The second is when their deck has any graveyard-related bonus; in this case, milling gives them an advantage until you actually deck them. Dredge cards, the Breakfast combo, Cabal Therapy, Eternal Dragon, lands for Crucible of Worlds, everything in Survival. The amount of graveyard hate played in the format should tell you how often this matters.
It's a non issue if you're even remotely good at this game.(Another chance for backfiring is when they have a Brainstorm or a Sensei's Divining Top, where Jace works as a top-of-library-cleaner. But that's very minor.)
Normally I would agree with you. However, the sheer number of cards that Jace mills at one time is relevant. Especially in Control vs Aggro Control matchups where it often devolves into a war of attrition between the AC # of creatures and the amount of removal left in the control deck.
My-based agro deck is the best thing ever, and will surely win this contest!
Instead of calling your deck stupid, I think that LB's trying to say something like this rough translation from douche bag into civil English
For instance, he's not saying, nor even thinking loudly, that everyone who submitted a rock deck is a mindless bag of dick. Instead he's imploring the masses to come up with somethign that isn't familiar, carbon-coppied from an existing thread or merely based upon something known.I think that the decks that we have been receieveing so far have been kind of all similar, and are, for the most part,
Yes - I'm Victor Nightingale.
Basically the thing I was trying to say about Jace against Thresh is you have an equal chance of milling the best 20 cards in their library as milling the worst 20 cards from their library. So saying patently that milling 20 decreases the quality of their deck in any way other then bringing them closer to death by milling just doesn't make sense. At the same time the thing I failed to see is that once you mill them 20 you have drawn 4 extra cards and they have 5 turns to deal with Jace through all your answers or death by milling ensues.
How bad is opposing Extirpate for you games 2/3 in testing.
big links in sigs are obnoxious -PR
Don't disrespect my dojo dude...
Sweep the leg!
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